su_A_ve
Well-Known Member
Well, it says:
EVSE Upgrade for Honda Fit / Honda Clarity EV
Only for Honda US models (Clarity Hybrid in NOT upgradable). This upgrade enables high-speed charging (up to 20 amps) when used on a 240 volt outlet....
Level 1 Charger - does it work on 240v?
- Thread starter Fidzio
- Start date
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Well, it says:
EVSE Upgrade for Honda Fit / Honda Clarity EV
Only for Honda US models (Clarity Hybrid in NOT upgradable). This upgrade enables high-speed charging (up to 20 amps) when used on a 240 volt outlet....
I have taken apart the included charger and unfortunately there is no way to check if the components are rated for more then 120v. the top side of the board where the regulators and capacitors are is covered and then soldered in place and glued. I do not want to go any further as I would most likely damage it diving any deeper. Maybe the pictures can be useful to someone. I would agree with other posters and say to just get a charger designed for 120v & 240v then risk damaging something.
MNSteve
Well-Known Member
I want to add a comment and a cautionary note, and I hate to wake up this thread, but I also hate to elongate the duplicate thread, so here we go.
Comment: The charger is not a "relay". It is not a passive quasi-adapter that simply delivers the voltage from the wall plug to the car. There is active circuitry there that changes the voltage and also communicates with matching logic in the car to determine charge rate and to stop charging when appropriate. The components in this circuit are rated for a given voltage and current. If this were a dual-voltage device, it would be labeled as a dual voltage device like the chargers these days for phones and other small devices. It is possible that there are protective components in place that would prevent damage; it is possible that there are not. It would be simply foolish to use an adapter and present a device that is clearly labeled for 120 volts with 240 volts.
Now here's my cautionary tale; I think you will see the relevance. I was chatting with an acquaintance at a training event several years ago. He is in charge of the bomb robot at his fire department. This is the remote controlled device that they send in to examine packages that might be bombs in order to keep humans out of danger. When his department acquired it, he went to training. Later he was holding a training session for his own people, and he decided to show them how to replace the battery, even though it would be unlikely that this would ever be necessary on an actual job. He put in the replacement battery, and the robot proceeded to catch on fire. Turns out that the terminals were reversed in the replacement battery, and the damage (which was covered by warranty) was in excess of $20,000. The irony here is that a 50₵ diode in the circuit could have prevented any damage. The relevance to us is that the same idiot who designed the power circuit for the robot might have designed our chargers . . .
Comment: The charger is not a "relay". It is not a passive quasi-adapter that simply delivers the voltage from the wall plug to the car. There is active circuitry there that changes the voltage and also communicates with matching logic in the car to determine charge rate and to stop charging when appropriate. The components in this circuit are rated for a given voltage and current. If this were a dual-voltage device, it would be labeled as a dual voltage device like the chargers these days for phones and other small devices. It is possible that there are protective components in place that would prevent damage; it is possible that there are not. It would be simply foolish to use an adapter and present a device that is clearly labeled for 120 volts with 240 volts.
Now here's my cautionary tale; I think you will see the relevance. I was chatting with an acquaintance at a training event several years ago. He is in charge of the bomb robot at his fire department. This is the remote controlled device that they send in to examine packages that might be bombs in order to keep humans out of danger. When his department acquired it, he went to training. Later he was holding a training session for his own people, and he decided to show them how to replace the battery, even though it would be unlikely that this would ever be necessary on an actual job. He put in the replacement battery, and the robot proceeded to catch on fire. Turns out that the terminals were reversed in the replacement battery, and the damage (which was covered by warranty) was in excess of $20,000. The irony here is that a 50₵ diode in the circuit could have prevented any damage. The relevance to us is that the same idiot who designed the power circuit for the robot might have designed our chargers . . .
I completely agree with you on the don't do it part.
The reason folks discuss this is because it turns out that some of the OEM charge cords (including the active parts) were built as 240V "capable" (with properly rated components, at least one company used a L2 ready board for some of GMs OEM 110V L1 charge cords) and with a little trickery in wiring connectors, they use them fine as L2 charge cords (albeit at slightly lower current because of the "pilot signal").
The active stuff (and there is lots as seen in the photo, all goes to those basic functions: relay control, the ground fault protection, and the pilot signal). Some of that connector rewiring would give a safety person heart burn (non-standard connections, non standard use of connector types), but clearly (for some manufacturer models, such as some or most Volts) it can be done "somewhat safely". I would not. (because of non-standard connector use, the lower current capability, and insurance worries if something did go wrong) But, by now hundreds have, with no problems. Instructions abound at forums like the Volt forum, and some folks have made a cottage industry of modding and/or supplying adapter parts and cords. Most of the basic hacking, even if not code compliant, has otherwise been "sort of okayed" by the EEs and Techs on the forums.
The pilot signal (one of the smaller pins in the SAE J1772 connector to the car) just tells the charger (which is a module in the car, usually one of the substantial looking aluminum boxes) what current the charge cord (the EVSE and it's supply wiring) is capable of supplying, so that the charger does not demand higher current than can be provided by the wiring to the charge cord apparatus and the charge cord EVSE itself. For example, if I use my old 20A clipper creek L2 240V EVSE, the Clarity cannot draw its maximum 32A. That's because the pilot signal from my 20A Clipper Creek tells the charger its (the 20A EVSE) 20A maximum available current.
It really is just the relay, the ground fault protection, and the pilot signal (which sets the charge current, when settable). The voltage is fixed, what you supply is what is the EVSE conveys to the car, minus any relatively small voltage drops from ohmic (resistive) loss in the cables (e.g. in the range of 208V to 240V for L2 charge cords). Or, as intended, usually about 110V to 125V.
The charger is in the car. The EVSE including its active electronics and cable, is just a "smart" charge cord.
The reason folks discuss this is because it turns out that some of the OEM charge cords (including the active parts) were built as 240V "capable" (with properly rated components, at least one company used a L2 ready board for some of GMs OEM 110V L1 charge cords) and with a little trickery in wiring connectors, they use them fine as L2 charge cords (albeit at slightly lower current because of the "pilot signal").
The active stuff (and there is lots as seen in the photo, all goes to those basic functions: relay control, the ground fault protection, and the pilot signal). Some of that connector rewiring would give a safety person heart burn (non-standard connections, non standard use of connector types), but clearly (for some manufacturer models, such as some or most Volts) it can be done "somewhat safely". I would not. (because of non-standard connector use, the lower current capability, and insurance worries if something did go wrong) But, by now hundreds have, with no problems. Instructions abound at forums like the Volt forum, and some folks have made a cottage industry of modding and/or supplying adapter parts and cords. Most of the basic hacking, even if not code compliant, has otherwise been "sort of okayed" by the EEs and Techs on the forums.
The pilot signal (one of the smaller pins in the SAE J1772 connector to the car) just tells the charger (which is a module in the car, usually one of the substantial looking aluminum boxes) what current the charge cord (the EVSE and it's supply wiring) is capable of supplying, so that the charger does not demand higher current than can be provided by the wiring to the charge cord apparatus and the charge cord EVSE itself. For example, if I use my old 20A clipper creek L2 240V EVSE, the Clarity cannot draw its maximum 32A. That's because the pilot signal from my 20A Clipper Creek tells the charger its (the 20A EVSE) 20A maximum available current.
It really is just the relay, the ground fault protection, and the pilot signal (which sets the charge current, when settable). The voltage is fixed, what you supply is what is the EVSE conveys to the car, minus any relatively small voltage drops from ohmic (resistive) loss in the cables (e.g. in the range of 208V to 240V for L2 charge cords). Or, as intended, usually about 110V to 125V.
The charger is in the car. The EVSE including its active electronics and cable, is just a "smart" charge cord.
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MNSteve
Well-Known Member
If this is true, then those of us who bought level-2 chargers paid an awful lot of money for a relay.
Yes, there is charger circuitry in the car. But there is also active charger circuitry in the box between the wall plug and the J1772.
yes, you are correct, the active circuitry in the EVSE is not simple or trivial, but it only does those basic functions. Ground fault detection for safety, relay control (the logic on when to close or open the relay based on safety and handshaking with the car), and generation of the pilot signal (an electronics signal generator, a low frequency signal with parameters that tell the charger the max current the charger in the car can draw), there is also some filtering and surge protection.
Some EVSE, like my ChargePoint 32A unit has a microcomputer and circuitry for power monitoring and WiFi reporting.
Also, there are a number of protection and filtering components, such as varistors (often blue or red thick discs) and chokes (sometimes heavy wire wound over ferrites).
Reliable high voltage (240V AC) relays for relatively high currents are not inexpensive.
But, you nailed it on cost. That is the reasoning most folks give, when you see posts like, "I made a L2 charge cord for $30 in parts from Home Depot".
OTOH, reliable, code compliant, UL rated, etc., L2 "high voltage", "high current", electrical gear is not inexpensive, nor is the relatively thick stranded copper wire that must survive many cycles of use and coiling and weather. Same for enclosures like Clipper Creek that are designed for outdoor use, weather proof and at least water resistant if not water proof, over wide ranges of ambient temperatures.
Here's another way to look at some of the active electronics in the EVSE. The EVSE must sense a ground fault condition, preferably before closing the relay to energize the cord, and afterwards while charging. That decision cannot be made at the charger in the car, because before the determination must be made before the cord is used, before it is plugged into the car.
A lot of that active circuitry is dedicated to not powering the cord between the electronics box and the J1772 connector if something is wrong.
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Sandroad
Well-Known Member
Missing in some of this thread is what the charger in the car does. It's a fairly complex device that monitors the battery in the car and supplies it appropriate voltage and current depending on a number of parameters. The cord that connects the charger in the car to a wall outlet is part of the charger only in the sense that having a variety of cords with different voltage and current capabilities and outlet configurations makes possible a range of voltage and current to be supplied to the charger. That fits the real world better than a single standard cord. In other words, if all wall outlets were the same voltage and amperage and properly wired with the same configuration, the cord could be just a plain cord with plugs on both ends and would not be considered part of the charger (other than being it's power cord).
MNSteve
Well-Known Member
You know ... you're right. The mystery to me is why the level-2 chargers are so big, heavy, and expensive. I guess that copper is ridiculously expensive, and 40-amp 240-volt relays are neither cheap nor small . . . and there's a bit of circuitry to handle the signalling. But these units seem a bit of overkill for the problem they're solving.
Sandroad
Well-Known Member
Yup, it's a lot like buying a smart phone for $400 and then spending another $40 for a piece of plastic in the form of a case. They charge those cord prices because they can. A heavy duty RV electric cord of the same length with the same gauge wire and built for rugged use is a tenth the cost of an EV cord. Same reason you should tell an electrician the new outlet you need is for a welder and not an EV.
It seems that owners of the Prius Prime are using the oem charger on 240v with no reported issues. The charger looks to be identical to the Clarity charger. I may try connecting mine to 240 and make sure the car reports 240v charging. http://priuschat.com/threads/standard-prius-prime-charger-g9060-47130-supporting-240v.189628/
Somebody has to be the first. Have a fire extinguisher handy. There's a used one on ebay for $150 if you need a replacement.
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The Gadgeteer
Well-Known Member
Even if the chance is slight if things go wrong I cannot justify risking damage to the car or the EVSE when you can have a full charge overnight regardless. If you really need level 2 there are ones for about $220 that are good quality.
https://amazing-e.com/
https://amazing-e.com/
@MNSteve my EVSE was built with about $40 worth of parts (not including the $135 cord and J1772 handle) back in the days when you could get a DIY OpenEVSE kit. It’s basically a specialized Arduino board connected to a big relay.
OpenEVSE is still a good way to learn how EVSEs work even if you don’t get to (or have to depending on your opinion) solder your own board anymore. I like taking stuff apart and seeing how it works. Been repairing stuff and working with my master electrician dad since I could hold a pair of kleins.
I did find some conflicting info that seems to indicate this Panasonic unit is dual voltage, but not definitive enough to risk the release of the blue smoke. I recently bought a Fiat 500e and the cords that come with those are well known for being dual voltage so I made an adapter and I’m good for now. I don’t know if I’ll ever use it beyond testing but I had the parts laying around anyway.
Now, as for the reason for all this hookum in the plastic box on the wall, it’s so we don’t end up with live voltage in that fancy extension cord cable until we are darned good and ready for it. It’s not to protect the car, that’s the cars job, it’s to protect you and any other humans who touch the cord. It’s a robust protocol because these things are used in wet environments, run over by cars, dropped on the ground, cut off and stolen by druggies, and generally abused.
The Wikipedia article on the J1772 protocol is very interesting reading. Ok, I’m a EVSE nerd.
OpenEVSE is still a good way to learn how EVSEs work even if you don’t get to (or have to depending on your opinion) solder your own board anymore. I like taking stuff apart and seeing how it works. Been repairing stuff and working with my master electrician dad since I could hold a pair of kleins.
I did find some conflicting info that seems to indicate this Panasonic unit is dual voltage, but not definitive enough to risk the release of the blue smoke. I recently bought a Fiat 500e and the cords that come with those are well known for being dual voltage so I made an adapter and I’m good for now. I don’t know if I’ll ever use it beyond testing but I had the parts laying around anyway.
Now, as for the reason for all this hookum in the plastic box on the wall, it’s so we don’t end up with live voltage in that fancy extension cord cable until we are darned good and ready for it. It’s not to protect the car, that’s the cars job, it’s to protect you and any other humans who touch the cord. It’s a robust protocol because these things are used in wet environments, run over by cars, dropped on the ground, cut off and stolen by druggies, and generally abused.
The Wikipedia article on the J1772 protocol is very interesting reading. Ok, I’m a EVSE nerd.
I like that Amazing-e. It’s a good deal. I’d just have to yank out that neutral blade if I got one so it would be good to go on 14-50 outlets at the campgrounds also.
Another important function of the EVSE is to tell the charger in the car how much current it can draw from the cord, by the "pilot signal". Otherwise, a Clarity could try to draw 32A from a 16A EVSE fed by #12 wire of a 240V / 20A home circuit. The pilot signal tells the charger in the Clarity, hey, I can only provide 16A (L2 240V).
If we want the EVSE industry to survive, and to not abuse workers, we have to pay companies AT LEAST A BIT more than the cost of parts. How much more is not clear, but that Amazing-e project appears to be headed in a good direction. Also, if you don't want total junk, higher quality parts, materials, and construction, are going to cost a bit more. I suspect the raw parts of many of the better 32A EVSE cost is more like $100+, including the cord and J1772 plug. Then, add some production cost, company overhead, and enough profit to keep a company in business.
EVSE can probably drop in the near term years to about $200 - $350 from the current $500+ prices. The best bet for reasonably priced charge cords is competition caused by demand (higher production numbers lead directly to lower raw parts costs). Unfortunately, we are probably many years away from EVSE becoming as common as home washers and dryers.
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JulianClarity
Active Member
120v and 240v have different sockets.
The unit is the same as the one Toyota and Subaru use.