Wassup with Sales?

[4sallypat]

Can't believe Honda is not continuing the Clarity line.....

 

[Ryan C]

I bought my Clarity from a fairly large Honda dealership this month, and the sales staff didn't know much about the car at all. They didn't keep the ones they had charged, and even when I gave them a day's notice that I wanted to test drive one charged, they had not figured out how to charge it when I got there (??), so I had to come back another day. The salesperson I worked with to do the purchase didn't even know about the tax credit. He said that no customers had ever asked him about the Clarity, and that the sales team was instructed to push the Insight to anyone who asked about a fuel efficient vehicle. He said he did not understand why anyone would buy a Clarity over an Insight or Accord until I told him about the tax credit, and then I think it clicked for him.

I don't think it's a problem unique to Honda. When I was shopping, I checked the local Toyota, Kia, and Hyundai dealers, and none had a single plug-in on the lot for 3-4 months straight, nor knew if they were getting any.

So basically, it is no surprise that something that isn't advertised and isn't available to test drive isn't selling. The only explanation for this situation is that manufacturers don't want to sell a lot of PHEVs yet. If they did, they would make more of them and market them better.

Why they don't want to make and sell them could have many reasons. Off the top of my head:

1. They don't consider the plug-in hybrid systems ready for mass-market yet, and want to sell them for a few years in low volume to work out the bugs while the fleet is small.
2. They are in no hurry to sell more PHEVs because the more they sell, the faster the tax credit dries up, giving their competitors who haven't sold 200,000 units a comparative advantage. I suspect this is the primary reason the Volt was discontinued. (At least in the US markets, although the current political party in charge is fairly hostile toward anything that doesn't burn guzzoline, and especially foreign-made products that don't burn guzzoline, so they may not be counting on the tax credit sticking around over the next few years anyway.)
3. They think either full electric vehicles or some other disruptor like hydrogen fuel that can actually be produced economically and cleanly are the future, and PHEVs are a transitory technology not worth investing in for the long-haul.
4. The global battery supply chain is so constrained right now that they just can't make very many PHEVs (or BEVs for that matter).

I am just a dumb armchair internet person, though. This is mostly blind speculation, but I am pretty convinced that it's lack of marketing and inventory to blame for PHEV sales, and not that the products themselves are unpalatable to consumers.

Couldn’t agree with you more. Never had a charged vehicle available, no clue about options or anything. Also didn’t seem interested in selling it. They also avoided mentioning the tax credit like it was the plague which blew my mind. Luckily I had already determined the Clarity was the perfect Southern California commuter car. I felt like I had to work really hard to get a dealership to sell me this car.

 

[Ryan C]

My price for my Honda Clarity Touring model will be $22500 before taxes after federal and state rebates. And I’ll save $1000 in gas if CA gas prices stay close to $4 gallon, which with constant gas taxes CA adds on it should be very possible. How are you buying a BMW or Audi for that price????? I just calculated with the $6k off MSRP dealer incentives and the $9000 in rebates it was kind of a no brainer.

I ran numbers on the clarity vs my 2013 Mazda 6 at 30 mpg and $3.69 gas (California). Adding in tax credit, rebate, haggling price and about $2k a year in fuel savings the Clarity isn’t damn near free for me after 5 years. Assuming insurance and mtx are constant and don’t factor in the cost of the clarity for me will end up being about $9k which is insane.
But I have damn near the perfect scenario for this car. 35 mile one way commute in heavy traffic with warm temperatures and my destination is always to government buildings that offer free charging.
I also view this car as a band aid solution/transition to evaluate going BEV. It’s such a good transition car to get someone off ICE and see how normal and beneficial the next evolution of battery tech will be. Also isn’t like to buy some time to see what the next quantum leap in battery tech will be.

 

[Ryan C]

Definitely a front runner, and for a long time. I remember my 1977 Datsun service manual had sections for "California only" because of the emissions equipment that was only required on cars sold in California. I don't remember what exactly but I think it was things like EGR which is now standard nationwide.

VOC (volatile organic compounds) reporting requirements are most strict in California. Body shops for example have to report how much VOC the shop is emitting monthly from sprayed paint fumes, using calculations based on the amount of paint sprayed each day which they have to track. Most other states either have no VOC reporting requirement or accept a calculation based on the amount of paint purchased, which isn't as accurate but is considered good enough and much easier for the shop to track.

And of course the whole ZEV concept was invented in California, requiring that a certain percentage of a manufacturers sales in the state be zero emission vehicles. PHEV qualifies for a partial credit because the assumption is that much if not most of the driving will be EV.

How much of this reflects the mindset of Californians? I think that's hard to say as they don't exactly get to vote on any of this. The state gives big tax incentives, and manufactures give big factory incentives so that they can get their CARB credits. So it can be assumed that a large number of the sales are driven by that. And anecdotally we hear that a sizable number of plugin purchases in California are driven solely by a desire to gain HOV lane access, which the buyers openly admit.

The same thing would likely happen in other states if the governments took a similar position. In fact I saw it first hand in Georgia several years ago when the state offered an amazing $5,000 tax credit on BEV's. The credit could even be carried over for up to five years if you didn't have enough tax liability the year of purchase. And if you leased a vehicle you filed for the credit yourself it didn't go to the leasing company to be (hopefully) passed down. Sales of EV cars mainly Nissan Leaf skyrocketed. During that period I had two coworkers who drove Leafs. Georgia became second only to California in EV sales and leases.

However in 2015 as part of a bill to increase gasoline tax the EV credit was eliminated. To add insult to injury a $200 one-time registration surcharge was enacted for BEV. The EV market in Georgia immediately tried up.

However I don't think it's all because of political party, not that that isn't a factor. The good news in Georgia is that earlier this year several Republican lawmakers introduced a bill to reinstate the tax credit starting in July 2020, albeit only $2,500 this time but it would also include PHEV. The bill seems to have a good chance of passing.

As a Californian I totally agree. Purchasing this car was purely a utility and defensive decision to maximize tax benefit, reduce gas tax, get hov Access and use the “free” charging infrastructure. The benefits to the planet are a nice positive but I purchased this car purely because it is the perfect So Cal car. Having the dealerships drop the price from $35k to $26k in one email pushed me over the edge.

 

[coutinpe]

Honda is going to have to drop the price,... by quite a bit. Lots of new competition, with lower priced higher range BEVs. I initially looked at the Prime, then Clarity, and the Ioniq PHEVs. The latter would have been my choice of those 3, primarily on price.

Then started looking at BEVs (larger subsidies),... Ioniq (2020 model), Bolt, new Leaf, Kia Nero and Soul, and finally the Kona. Ended up buying the Kona Ultimate EV, good price, feature rich, long range, and most practical (small SUV). Have had it now for 2 months, and couldn't be happier with my choice.

Both Honda and Toyota need to really improve their PHEV pricing or the sales will crater over the next couple years. In 2020/21, bunch more new BEVs coming out, and I think that will be the end for PHEVs.

Sorry to respectfully disagree with your last statement. I understand the PHEV is a transitional technology (like legacy masts and sails on the first steam ships) and will eventually go away, but I think many people driving PHEVs like me won't go full BEV only unless there's a real breakthrough, not only in EV range but on charging infrastructure that allows to recharge as accessible and fast as filling a tank of gas. Unless, of course, the PHEV option is dictatorially suppressed by the automakers, like GM and Ford did by killing the Volt and C-Max in spite of their popularity, which wouldn't be a surprise either. Sometimes it looks like the 'market decisions' are set by the CEO's will and assumptions, not the market itself. If that happens I would have to go, with pain in my heart, back to ICE if I need to change my car. But again, it's just a matter of opinion. Some people are OK with sitting for one or two hours at a charging station while driving interstate. Not my case. On the other hand, everywhere else on this forum you see people complaining they can't find Clarities at Honda dealers. There would have been more sales, the demand is there, not the offer.

 

[MPower]

For people with 2 car households, a BEV for one of their cars can make sense, but for a single car household, a PHEV makes better sense at this point in the infrastructure buildout.

 

[DucRider]

Some people are OK with sitting for one or two hours at a charging station while driving interstate.

This is not how it works today, and it is improving constantly.
Cars with the newest DCFC allow you to drive for 3-4 hours and charge for ~30 minutes, and it continues to get better. Most people stop at least that often when traveling. Those that don't stop that often are outliers that the market is not likely to cater to. At some point, filling your ICE will become more difficult on a long road trip than charging your EV (but not likely in my lifetime).

 

[RickSE]

This is not how it works today, and it is improving constantly.
Cars with the newest DCFC allow you to drive for 3-4 hours and charge for ~30 minutes, and it continues to get better. Most people stop at least that often when traveling. Those that don't stop that often are outliers that the market is not likely to cater to. At some point, filling your ICE will become more difficult on a long road trip than charging your EV (but not likely in my lifetime).

This is a “happy day” scenario that we won’t see for 20 years. Once the technology hits mainstream anyplace available for charging would get overwhelmed if every car took 30 minutes. Was on a road trip today (260 miles, 54 MPG, 3 people, trunk full of luggage, 0 other clarity’s seen) and the lines for gas at the rest stops were 20 cars deep. I didn’t need to wait because my 7 gallon tank covered the entire trip!! This is an amazing car. I can only think that Honda doesn’t want to sell a lot of them because they sell a ton of accords and civic sedans at a way higher profit margin then they can do on the Clarity with the current cost of battery technology.

 

[DucRider]

This is a “happy day” scenario that we won’t see for 20 years. Once the technology hits mainstream anyplace available for charging would get overwhelmed if every car took 30 minutes. Was on a road trip today (260 miles, 54 MPG, 3 people, trunk full of luggage, 0 other clarity’s seen) and the lines for gas at the rest stops were 20 cars deep. I didn’t need to wait because my 7 gallon tank covered the entire trip!! This is an amazing car. I can only think that Honda doesn’t want to sell a lot of them because they sell a ton of accords and civic sedans at a way higher profit margin then they can do on the Clarity with the current cost of battery technology.

The charging network to do that exists today, and I know many people that do just that. One friend has >80K miles on his EV in under 3 years and has even towed his travel trailer across the US and back (but range was in the toilet doing that - like 50%).
A 300+ mile EV would very likely have worked just fine for your trip, and no need to stop at all to charge. I've done Portland to Seattle and back (380 miles) in a day with no waiting to charge. Topped off a bit halfway there while using the restroom and grabbing a cup of coffee. Topped off again on the way home (at the same location) while eating dinner. Neither of those would have been any different if driving an ICE, and it did not add any time to the trip.
I could have used a valet with free charging in Seattle while at the meeting (others attending did) and not charged in either direction, but I still would have stopped at about the same time/place anyway.

 

[RickSE]

The charging network to do that exists today, and I know many people that do just that. One friend has >80K miles on his EV in under 3 years and has even towed his travel trailer across the US and back (but range was in the toilet doing that - like 50%).
A 300+ mile EV would very likely have worked just fine for your trip, and no need to stop at all to charge. I've done Portland to Seattle and back (380 miles) in a day with no waiting to charge. Topped off a bit halfway there while using the restroom and grabbing a cup of coffee. Topped off again on the way home (at the same location) while eating dinner. Neither of those would have been any different if driving an ICE, and it did not add any time to the trip.
I could have used a valet with free charging in Seattle while at the meeting (others attending did) and not charged in either direction, but I still would have stopped at about the same time/place anyway.

You are right. I wouldn’t have needed to stop to charge. But you are missing my point. I was talking about a rest stop on a turnpike where there were 20 cars waiting on gas due to volume. Fill-ups take 5 minutes. What happens when dozens of cars are queuing up for 30 minutes of charging. It won’t be dozens pretty soon. It will be hundreds. The charging network might work today when so few cars are stressing it. Not a chance it will work with volume. I’m not waiting for 10 cars in front of me to finish charging - I’ll keep my PHEV.

 

[David Towle]

I think PHEVs will be around for a lot longer than many posters here think. Lining up for charging is one problem that will be around for a long time, the other is that for those of us who don't have free or solar charging and live where electricity is not cheap, its significantly more expensive to drive in electric mode than gas for anything over a couple miles, especially if highway speeds are involved. My Clarity lets me address this by picking and choosing gas versus electricity as I see fit. Can't beat that! I'll be driving a PHEV for a long time, probably till death do us part (or maybe if I move where electricity is cheap).

If Honda is indeed canceling the Clarity, its likely because they just cannot at this time get customers to pay the actual cost of the car plus profit. Hopefully that changes in the future. My guess is their costs are near $50k per car.

 

[DucRider]

There seems to be an assumption that charging speeds will not increase, and that the only way people will charge is "on the turnpike". Home charging will shift a significant amount of fill-ups away from the traditional "service station" model. The Taycan is the first of the next generation of higher voltage EV's, that will be able to charge significantly faster (the will take advantage of the 350kW chargers now being installed). A 350 kW charge rate would allow a 4m/kWh EV to gain 3 hours of driving in 9 minutes.

I see no reason to believe that the number of charging stations will continue to increase along with the number of EV's.

Honda cannot afford to drop the Clarity, as they will be forced to purchase ZEV credits on the open market. They've spent millions doing this already, and it has to rub them the wrong way to write big checks to Tesla. If the Clarity PHEV is supply constrained, they will indeed focus shipments to Section 177 States. They also may be balancing the production of the Clarity to target a specific amount of ZEV credits. It may be that the non Section 177 States got a surge as it made sense in getting the production up and running an needing to make a minimum volume to get the desired pricing from suppliers.
Over the next couple of years, they will need to put out additional BEV/FCEV offerings that garner ZEV credits as opposed to the TZEV provided by PHEV's as they can only use TZEVs for a portion of the required credits.

The life cycle of the PHEV variant will definitely be influenced by it's greater cost (as compared to the BEV), lower number of credits earned per unit, and limited value of the credits it does earn.

 

[RickSE]

There seems to be an assumption that charging speeds will not increase, and that the only way people will charge is "on the turnpike". Home charging will shift a significant amount of fill-ups away from the traditional "service station" model. The Taycan is the first of the next generation of higher voltage EV's, that will be able to charge significantly faster (the will take advantage of the 350kW chargers now being installed). A 350 kW charge rate would allow a 4m/kWh EV to gain 3 hours of driving in 9 minutes.

I see no reason to believe that the number of charging stations will continue to increase along with the number of EV's.

Honda cannot afford to drop the Clarity, as they will be forced to purchase ZEV credits on the open market. They've spent millions doing this already, and it has to rub them the wrong way to write big checks to Tesla. If the Clarity PHEV is supply constrained, they will indeed focus shipments to Section 177 States. They also may be balancing the production of the Clarity to target a specific amount of ZEV credits. It may be that the non Section 177 States got a surge as it made sense in getting the production up and running an needing to make a minimum volume to get the desired pricing from suppliers.
Over the next couple of years, they will need to put out additional BEV/FCEV offerings that garner ZEV credits as opposed to the TZEV provided by PHEV's as they can only use TZEVs for a portion of the required credits.

The life cycle of the PHEV variant will definitely be influenced by it's greater cost (as compared to the BEV), lower number of credits earned per unit, and limited value of the credits it does earn.

We are a long way from that type of charge rate going mainstream. And while not everyone will charge “on the turnpike” that doesn’t mean that no one will. TODAY charge rates are not going to give 3 hours of driving in 9 minutes and for $120k the Taycan isn’t exactly a mass market vehicle. With gas at $2.75 and Massachusetts rates around $0.24 per kWh the accord hybrid or insight given the Clarity a run for its money all things being equal. With the $7500 credit the Clarity is a way better deal, and the phev lets me decide how economically I can power the car. Can’t do that in a bev.

 

[David Towle]

Want more charging stations online fast? Here's your answer:

https://thedriven.io/2018/12/14/diesel-charge-evs-remote-locations-greener-than-you-think/

 

[MrFixit]

Want more charging stations online fast? Here's your answer:

https://thedriven.io/2018/12/14/diesel-charge-evs-remote-locations-greener-than-you-think/

Wow !! This is counter-intuitive.
The fact that you can run a diesel generator, charge an EV, and get roughly the same end-to-end performance as you can could have gotten from a diesel vehicle is interesting, but... The fallacy here is that nobody should want to 'settle' for matching the performance of a diesel car with their EV !!! We want to do MUCH better than that !!!

Perhaps this has some utility in the deep outback of Australia where it would be virtually impossible to get electricity through other means, and you must charge your EV there, but otherwise, this seems like a BIG LOOSER !

 

[Ryan C]

I think PHEVs will be around for a lot longer than many posters here think. Lining up for charging is one problem that will be around for a long time, the other is that for those of us who don't have free or solar charging and live where electricity is not cheap, its significantly more expensive to drive in electric mode than gas for anything over a couple miles, especially if highway speeds are involved. My Clarity lets me address this by picking and choosing gas versus electricity as I see fit. Can't beat that! I'll be driving a PHEV for a long time, probably till death do us part (or maybe if I move where electricity is cheap).

If Honda is indeed canceling the Clarity, its likely because they just cannot at this time get customers to pay the actual cost of the car plus profit. Hopefully that changes in the future. My guess is their costs are near $50k per car.

I think I said elsewhere that the PHEV is a brilliant way to allow an average consumer to dip their toes into a new tech without completely transitioning. It’s a good way to avoid extremes. Kinda like becoming a weekday vegetarian. Try to responsibly reduce consumption without eliminating what you’re used to altogether and ultimately giving up on extreme change. I think as battery tech evolves you could end up building an EV like a Dell computer or a solar system. You identify your need and then the dealership builds a Just In Time type of customizable EV that has small battery clusters with room for expansion of additional battery packs etc and u pick the base skateboard power train then build up from there. I envision my Clarity purchase as an efficient way to test the tech and buy time to see what the next quantum leap will be for EV. I really want to watch the Rivian launch. Even if the Rivian itself fails it will completely revolutionize fleet trucks.

 

[craze1cars]

Wow !! This is counter-intuitive.
The fact that you can run a diesel generator, charge an EV, and get roughly the same end-to-end performance as you can could have gotten from a diesel vehicle is interesting, but... The fallacy here is that nobody should want to 'settle' for matching the performance of a diesel car with their EV !!! We want to do MUCH better than that !!!

Perhaps this has some utility in the deep outback of Australia where it would be virtually impossible to get electricity through other means, and you must charge your EV there, but otherwise, this seems like a BIG LOOSER !

Kinda like owning a car that carries around its own gasoline powered generator to charge itself, which in the end gets about the same performance and mpg as a regular gasoline powered car otherwise would...

Oh. Wait a minute....

Sorry I feel the need to point out the glaring similarities in concept here with what most of us are driving. So “big looser” seems a bit strong to me....

Indeed as you point out the point of the whole diesel generator thing is to bring electricity for EVs to locations that have zero electricity infrastructure. It has no practical purpose anywhere you can tie into the grid to use a charger, and that’s not why the product was invented...

The diesel powered charger fills a gap and a need for those who drive outside the range of grid chargers. As does the PHEV. It could be easily argued a single shared Diesel engine for charging many vehicles is a far smarter and cleaner way to handle this issue than for every individual to carry his/her own gasoline generator and fuel like PHEV owners do.

 

[MrFixit]

Sorry I feel the need to point out the glaring similarities in concept here with what most of us are driving. So “big looser” seems a bit strong to me....

OK, you got me... Although a more accurate analogy with the Clarity would be to sit on the side of the road running the angry bees while you charge your battery for a couple of hours. Then drive your 47 miles in EV mode. Then sit on the side of the road running the angry bees again, etc. etc !!!

It is interesting it can do as well as touted because this is a humongous diesel generator. This generator is tremendously oversized for the sole reason of convenience (so the user doesn't waste so much of his time charging). Usually better efficiencies can be obtained without such a large mismatch. Our Clarities have an ICE that can just barely drive the car on it's own, allowing it all to work nicely in a 'reasonable sized' 4,000 lb. package.

 

[coutinpe]

This is not how it works today, and it is improving constantly.
Cars with the newest DCFC allow you to drive for 3-4 hours and charge for ~30 minutes, and it continues to get better. Most people stop at least that often when traveling. Those that don't stop that often are outliers that the market is not likely to cater to. At some point, filling your ICE will become more difficult on a long road trip than charging your EV (but not likely in my lifetime).

Atl east for me, it takes almost 2 hours to get from 40% to 95% charge on a Level 2 Volta charger. Can't speak for the Teslas, maybe they're way faster.

 

[coutinpe]

I think PHEVs will be around for a lot longer than many posters here think. Lining up for charging is one problem that will be around for a long time, the other is that for those of us who don't have free or solar charging and live where electricity is not cheap, its significantly more expensive to drive in electric mode than gas for anything over a couple miles, especially if highway speeds are involved. My Clarity lets me address this by picking and choosing gas versus electricity as I see fit. Can't beat that! I'll be driving a PHEV for a long time, probably till death do us part (or maybe if I move where electricity is cheap).

If Honda is indeed canceling the Clarity, its likely because they just cannot at this time get customers to pay the actual cost of the car plus profit. Hopefully that changes in the future. My guess is their costs are near $50k per car.

I like to have choices too.