Wassup with Sales?

[craze1cars]

Too me, it's all about how many Honda WANTS to sell.

Can’t dispute this. I take this as #1. The company has clearly given up on “selling” the car.

But unlike you I also still see the car as overall undesirable to most.

I think people frequenting this forum tend to forget that it is heavily populated with Californians and residents of other ZEV states, which frankly does not represent a cross section of the US car buying market as a whole. There is no doubt in my mind that if the whole country was similar to a California in terms of populace and political persuasion, this would be a MUCH more popular car. But it’s not. And I don’t chose sides on that or intend to start any political debate, just stating what I think is obvious to me but may be overlooked by those in ZEV states who may not really have a pulse on what the majority of the country seeks when buying a car....as I admit I don’t have a pulse on what Californians seek when buying a car.

And I’m only picking on California cuz it’s big and a general front runner on everything environmental.

I do know that Honda corporate actually did try to sell this car at one time in Indiana. There were a bunch of Clarity TV and radio commercials running back when I bought mine. Unfortunately it was clear that the dealers weren’t involved in the push. But Honda was trying to bring mass awareness to the car.

And despite this marketing push, and the $7500 fed rebate, and cheap financing, Clarity completely flopped here in Indiana. So I believe Honda made a smart business decision and gave up on trying to sell a car that most of the country doesn’t want. So the dealers finally purged their 2018 inventory, never to be replenished, and they accepted this car to be a perennial low volume specially vehicle relegated to the niche ZEV state market and maybe some other countries who are more open to it.

Even among those interested in saving gas here in the Midwest, the Insights and Accord Hybrids and Toyota Hybrids all sell like hot cakes. Still. Teslas sell pretty good too. But the Clarity? It’s just too weird, commutes and driving trips are too long, EV range is too short, and gas is too cheap to make electric propulsion any major savings, republican run states have no desire to further subsidize a car, and many of those other Hybrids get better true gas mileage than Clarity does anyway after the battery is dead.

And Canada....man I just don’t get it. This car has to be MAJORLY subsidized somehow up there to make sense out of owning one in a climate with winters the long and temps that extreme cold. Or maybe gas is that expensive up there? I have no idea...

And...these are just my thoughts, guesses, and interpretations. Which means many will likely disagree with me, and some of them may be misconstrued by me, or I may be flat out wrong....

 

[MNSteve]

I think that those of us here on the forum do tend to lose touch with the mainstream car-buying public. I got a peek into it a few weeks ago when my niece bought a new car. She had never been through the car-buying process before (her car that died was given to her) and she wanted moral support. But that's really all it was because she did good research and figured out what she wanted.

And what did she want? Solid, dependable, and cheap transportation. She narrowed it down to a Prius and a Corolla. She bought the Corolla because it was less complicated and more of a known entity. I know that she's not a perfect picture of today's typical car buyer, but it emphasizes how those of us here are very atypical.

Every buyer has their own set of needs, but few of them are looking for a model with scant history, no advertising, poor dealer support, and all the complexity of a hybrid plus some. The Clarity appeals to a small fraction of the car-buying market, and with no support by Honda the sales are going to be exactly what they are.

 

[4sallypat]

except its not the same amount of money. Fed rebate of $7500 plus state rebates of ~$2000 makes the Clarity MUCH cheaper

I agree but when I leased the 2018 Clarity, I received the federal $7500 incentive up front (cap cost reduction) along with $3000 dealer discount and $500 state employee discount plus the post rebates ($1500 state + $1000 utility) which made the $34K car into a $20K car.

The 2019 Clarity are not getting the same support so it costs more - wondering if they hike up the discount near end of the year ???

If Honda did not offer the huge discount, I would have chosen the BMW 3 series or Audi A4 for the same money.

 

[2002]

And I’m only picking on California cuz it’s big and a general front runner on everything environmental.

Definitely a front runner, and for a long time. I remember my 1977 Datsun service manual had sections for "California only" because of the emissions equipment that was only required on cars sold in California. I don't remember what exactly but I think it was things like EGR which is now standard nationwide.

VOC (volatile organic compounds) reporting requirements are most strict in California. Body shops for example have to report how much VOC the shop is emitting monthly from sprayed paint fumes, using calculations based on the amount of paint sprayed each day which they have to track. Most other states either have no VOC reporting requirement or accept a calculation based on the amount of paint purchased, which isn't as accurate but is considered good enough and much easier for the shop to track.

And of course the whole ZEV concept was invented in California, requiring that a certain percentage of a manufacturers sales in the state be zero emission vehicles. PHEV qualifies for a partial credit because the assumption is that much if not most of the driving will be EV.

How much of this reflects the mindset of Californians? I think that's hard to say as they don't exactly get to vote on any of this. The state gives big tax incentives, and manufactures give big factory incentives so that they can get their CARB credits. So it can be assumed that a large number of the sales are driven by that. And anecdotally we hear that a sizable number of plugin purchases in California are driven solely by a desire to gain HOV lane access, which the buyers openly admit.

The same thing would likely happen in other states if the governments took a similar position. In fact I saw it first hand in Georgia several years ago when the state offered an amazing $5,000 tax credit on BEV's. The credit could even be carried over for up to five years if you didn't have enough tax liability the year of purchase. And if you leased a vehicle you filed for the credit yourself it didn't go to the leasing company to be (hopefully) passed down. Sales of EV cars mainly Nissan Leaf skyrocketed. During that period I had two coworkers who drove Leafs. Georgia became second only to California in EV sales and leases.

However in 2015 as part of a bill to increase gasoline tax the EV credit was eliminated. To add insult to injury a $200 one-time registration surcharge was enacted for BEV. The EV market in Georgia immediately tried up.

However I don't think it's all because of political party, not that that isn't a factor. The good news in Georgia is that earlier this year several Republican lawmakers introduced a bill to reinstate the tax credit starting in July 2020, albeit only $2,500 this time but it would also include PHEV. The bill seems to have a good chance of passing.

 

[MPower]

Vermont has no tax credit for EV or PHEV. The only subsidy is from our largest electic utility for the installation of a 240 EVSE (which I have been unable to use because I live in a condo). Yet in Vermont they are still selling Clarity PHEVs pretty regularly.

For me, the price of gas and the price of electricity are not that different.

 

[MrFixit]

Maryland has an excise tax credit (they basically refund your state tax), but the program is woefully underfunded. I bought the car in Nov 2018 and am still waiting for the refund. New funding for FY2020 (which started yesterday) was expended before the FY even started. I [think] I am in the group that will be paid from this pot, but any new buyers will be waiting at least a year before FY2021 begins on July 1, 2020 for additional money to break loose (assuming they keep the program).

She bought the Corolla

@MNSteve - Just curious, how much was paid for the new Corolla? Like others, my bottom line for the Clarity (Touring) was around $22K. I'll bet the Corolla (or a Civic) would be very close to this. The Clarity is a very different car indeed, but for those who can accept some risks, a great value.

 

[Mowcowbell]

Oklahoma has no tax credit for EV or PHEV. The economy is completely about petroleum. Big oil owns everything, including in the local government. Oil literally runs in the streets... today's news was about a rural community complaining about oil tankers leaking oil down the main highway, creating a mess.

My reasons for buying a Clarity? Short commute using no gas, but gasoline for longer trips. I also love the fact that when I pull into my garage after commuting from work, the vehicle doesn't heat up my garage since the ICE didn't run.

 

[MrFixit]

Here is an update with the June 2019 numbers just in (at least we didn't go down again!) :

 

[NJClarity]

I read somewhere that Honda is in the process of moving production of the Clarity from Japan to the US, thus the cars are in short supply. Once that transition is completed, you should see an increase in inventory and sales. Wouldn’t surprise me if there are updates done at the same time.

 

[ab13]

I read somewhere that Honda is in the process of moving production of the Clarity from Japan to the US, thus the cars are in short supply. Once that transition is completed, you should see an increase in inventory and sales. Wouldn’t surprise me if there are updates done at the same time.

There is always some possibility, they did stop the Accord hybrid in 2016 for design updates.

Prius Prime is offering 1.9%APR, and Nissan Leaf is 0%. So there is that.

Regardless, they will need to sell cars for ZEV, which is 10 states. ZEV reading and stats:

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevtutorial/zevtutorial.htm

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/pro...program/zero-emission-vehicle-credit-balances

 

[Danks]

I don't think the Clarity is undesirable to most. It is unknown to most. Pretty much everyone I've talked to liked the car, the EV range, cutting gas costs, etc.. They had never heard of the Clarity. If they could actually get one here in MI some of them might have even done so, but few are up to going out of state to get one.

I think Honda is just stuck on this one with the ZEV. I think their production volumes are such that they have to allocate everything they can to ZEV states. I think they would love to allocate all over the US, but don't have enough production to do that and ZEV both. I expect that they are working to change that.

 

[Texas22Step]

Supply. For example in Portland, Oregon- many dealers have no stock. This was not true at end of 2018.

There is no reason the Clarity can't compete with the Prius Prime. As for the Model 3- there is still a substantial price difference- and I have no doubt some prefer a PHEV to a BEV.

So maybe the better question is- why no supply?

IMHO you have hit the nail on the head. Here in Texas, it is nearly impossible to find any Clarity vehicles offered by Honda dealers. I can't claim daily or comprehensive checks, but I have never seen nor heard of a 2019 model anywhere in the state. There are low or no sales of this great car in Texas because there is no fresh supply to dealers of the vehicle at all.

 

[Mowcowbell]

IMHO you have hit the nail on the head. Here in Texas, it is nearly impossible to find any Clarity vehicles offered by Honda dealers. I can't claim daily or comprehensive checks, but I have never seen nor heard of a 2019 model anywhere in the state. There are low or no sales of this great car in Texas because there is no fresh supply to dealers of the vehicle at all.

A quick search on Autotrader turned up quite a few new 2018's in the DFW area.

 

[Krseddy]

I live in the Carolinas and was looking to get into a PHEV similar to the Volt/Clarity/Prime. I preferred the Clarity because of the size/range/better interior. So I looked around and there were 15 in my 100 mile area. Granted it’s definitely more pickup truck country down here. I was going to go used, but I thought I’d throw out some offers on new Clarity’s out there so I could take advantage of the tax credit. I was actually surprised how desperate they were to get rid of them. I had one dealership ready to go $10k under MSRP (OTD price with all their fees included) and they’d deliver it to me on a flatbed truck. Ended up driving to a dealership to pick one up for $12k under MSRP OTD. With the tax credit basically 50% off to begin with. Never had that happen with any other car purchase.

 

[Lowell_Greenberg]

A quick search on Autotrader turned up quite a few new 2018's in the DFW area.

1k new Clarity's nation-wide, 250 are 2018. 45k. 3k Prius Primes. No Clarity's in some major metropolitan markets.

1,000 Honda dealers nationwide (guess). 1 Clarity per dealer on average?

They are not exactly saturating the market. And "new" 2018s are getting a bit long in the tooth, representing a quarter of the supply. 25, new 2018 Prius Primes.

It certainly appears mismanagement of the supply chain is impacting sales in some areas.

Or perhaps, besides ZEV credits, there are other things at play. But given the late 2018 sales trends and the competitive nature of the vehicle- I doubt it is the product.

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[Lowell_Greenberg]

1k new Clarity's nation-wide, 250 are 2018. 45k. 3k Prius Primes. No Clarity's in some major metropolitan markets.

1,000 Honda dealers nationwide (guess). 1 Clarity per dealer on average?

They are not exactly saturating the market. And "new" 2018s are getting a bit long in the tooth, representing a quarter of the supply. 25, new 2018 Prius Primes.

It certainly appears mismanagement of the supply chain is impacting sales in some areas.

Or perhaps, besides ZEV credits, there are other things at play. But given the late 2018 sales trends and the competitive nature of the vehicle- I doubt it is the product.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

45k Accords nationwide. Typo.

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[LAF]

Can’t dispute this. I take this as #1. The company has clearly given up on “selling” the car.

But unlike you I also still see the car as overall undesirable to most.

I think people frequenting this forum tend to forget that it is heavily populated with Californians and residents of other ZEV states, which frankly does not represent a cross section of the US car buying market as a whole. There is no doubt in my mind that if the whole country was similar to a California in terms of populace and political persuasion, this would be a MUCH more popular car. But it’s not. And I don’t chose sides on that or intend to start any political debate, just stating what I think is obvious to me but may be overlooked by those in ZEV states who may not really have a pulse on what the majority of the country seeks when buying a car....as I admit I don’t have a pulse on what Californians seek when buying a car.

And I’m only picking on California cuz it’s big and a general front runner on everything environmental.

I do know that Honda corporate actually did try to sell this car at one time in Indiana. There were a bunch of Clarity TV and radio commercials running back when I bought mine. Unfortunately it was clear that the dealers weren’t involved in the push. But Honda was trying to bring mass awareness to the car.

And despite this marketing push, and the $7500 fed rebate, and cheap financing, Clarity completely flopped here in Indiana. So I believe Honda made a smart business decision and gave up on trying to sell a car that most of the country doesn’t want. So the dealers finally purged their 2018 inventory, never to be replenished, and they accepted this car to be a perennial low volume specially vehicle relegated to the niche ZEV state market and maybe some other countries who are more open to it.

Even among those interested in saving gas here in the Midwest, the Insights and Accord Hybrids and Toyota Hybrids all sell like hot cakes. Still. Teslas sell pretty good too. But the Clarity? It’s just too weird, commutes and driving trips are too long, EV range is too short, and gas is too cheap to make electric propulsion any major savings, republican run states have no desire to further subsidize a car, and many of those other Hybrids get better true gas mileage than Clarity does anyway after the battery is dead.

And Canada....man I just don’t get it. This car has to be MAJORLY subsidized somehow up there to make sense out of owning one in a climate with winters the long and temps that extreme cold. Or maybe gas is that expensive up there? I have no idea...

And...these are just my thoughts, guesses, and interpretations. Which means many will likely disagree with me, and some of them may be misconstrued by me, or I may be flat out wrong....

I agree that Honda is not trying to sell too many because they don't make much money- it is a test car for future all electric or hydrogen.

But why Americans don't buy it is beyond me (stupidity? heh millions voted for Trump). I disagree with your criticisms. "It’s just too weird" - not as weird as a Prius; "Hybrids get better true gas mileage than Clarity does anyway after the battery is dead"- it gets over 40 mpg as a hybrid on the highway, as good as a prius V, "EV range is too short- most people can drive all EV for 90% of the time for 1/2 the price of a Tesla". And price?- its less money than an Accord; "gas is too cheap to make electric propulsion any major savings'; driving EV is so much more enjoyable that by ICE and yes it does help global warming. Conclusion- Americans are stupid.

 

[Texas22Step]

A quick search on Autotrader turned up quite a few new 2018's in the DFW area.

Interesting. I tried to go to Autotrader on the web a few minutes ago and got only this error message: "We're sorry for any inconvenience, but the site is currently unavailable. Please contact our support team for help."

I'll try it again later to see if it has different / more listings. In any case, I suspect the vast majority of the listings you uncovered are for the base model and are likely very limited in color choices to black (never work in Texas), or white (not my taste). A search I ran on cars.com for "new" 2018 Clarity PHEV touring trip in the DFW area showed only one car, and that one is white. I had the local Honda dealer, who had plenty in stock just 6 months ago, do a search for me as well, but they came up dry too and told me they aren't even allowed to order either the 2018 nor the 2019 version. (Probably have to take that claim from a dealer with a grain of salt, though.)

In addition, Honda apparently is letting some of the common parts go on "national back-order" status. I had a rock hit my windshield and need a new one, but they can't be ordered. The supposed "in-stock" date of 6/23 has passed without any reason, extension, new ETA, or otherwise.

Something is fishy with Honda and its Clarity right now.

 

[Mark W]

I'm surprised EV sales are not higher in states like Oregon that is a ZEV state, has state incentives, and has low electricity rates. Most of the ZEV states have very high electricity rates which makes the cost of "fuel" double the amount of some states.

 

[fotomoto]

I forgot to mention another factor in Prime sales that may seem insignificant at first. It's about the cheapest way to get into the highly coveted HOV access lane without range anxiety (LEAF is potentially cheaper) nor needing to be plugged in (renters, apartments/condo folks).

I think that those of us here on the forum do tend to lose touch with the mainstream car-buying public.

Not me. Here in Texas, I just need to look out my front door. If you want to see examples of living in a bubble, just peruse the IEV's comments section particularly on Tesla subjects. WHEW!

Oil literally runs in the streets...

I genuinely LOL.

I tried to go to Autotrader on the web a few minutes ago and got only this error message:

Use cars.com better design for searches.