Wassup with Sales?

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Steven B said:
Apparently this report came out in March but an electrek article pointed to it in my news feed. I think this says a lot about why Honda pulled back the Clarity: They are at the top of the list for fleet efficiency and therefore don't need EVs and PHEVs to balance out models with terrible gas mileage. More driven by regulations than by consumer demand.
https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/highlights-automotive-trends-report
Focus of the electrek article was on Toyota:
https://electrek.co/2019/10/31/toyotas-greenwashing-conceals-worsening-fleet-mpg/
Click to expand...
This makes sense.

Honda makes the perfect set of ICE cars that all very fuel efficient and making more PHEV/EV/FCV is not really needed.
Building the Clarity means a loss of profits so why build more of them when they don't need to?
After all, car manufacturers are all profit businesses.

OTOH it stands to reason that other manufacturers have to sell alternative fuel / EV cars to make the CAFE government requirements.

The need for North American gas pigs like trucks, muscle cars and V8 sports car engines are still in demand, causing the need to build high MPG cars to offset them....

If only we follow the European or Asian model where we drive super efficient cars instead of driving cars/trucks that make up for a lack of self esteem...
 
Electrek today writes that Honda's working on another BEV and from now on it will be BEVs and hybrids only. Of course, because Honda understands the North American market very well, all the BEVs will be for Europe.

> Two small EVs in the next two years is a slow start. Nonetheless, Honda
> is saying that EVs are very much in its future, along with hybrids.
>
> At the same time, diesel, hydrogen, and plug-in hybrids are on the way out. [emphasis mine]
 
johncl said:
if plug-in hybrids are on the way out then why is Ford releasing a plug-in hybrid of the Escape in 2020 first quarter along with a hybrid version of the Escape

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27006951/2020-ford-escape-hybrid-plug-in-photos-info/

Toyota is also suppossed to release a plug-in hybrid version of the RAV4 in 2021

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2021-toyota-rav4-plug-in-hybrid-photos-info/
Click to expand...

@insightman I believe was referring to the choices being made by Honda, not necessarily the choices being made by a number of other manufacturers for the US market, including the two you mention + others such as BMW, Volvo, etc.

That said, I agree with you that (particularly in the US) the PHEV is going to be a good choice for many manufacturers over the term of the next decade or so. The BEV "revolution" isn't going to happen in the US as fast as it may in other parts of the world (Europe & China, for example) because of high initial vehicle prices, declining government subsidies for electric vehicles, sustained low gasoline prices, and the fact that gasoline mpg (efficiency) for many ICE vehicles is increasing sharply. (See the comments on this thread above by @Steven B and @4sallypat. For example, my previous 4 cyl. 2016 Accord routinely achieved 35+ mpg, but I still traded for the Clarity PHEV for all the reasons now obvious to Clarity owners.)

The global car market appears to be diverging. The automakers are responding to that.
 
When I was in Europe twice the past year, I noticed that the sidewalk parking spots were all EV chargers.
In Paris, London, Barcelona, Madrid, and Rome I noticed almost all city center parking were reserved for BEV cars ( did not notice any PHEV)...
In Asia, I noticed the most number of EV charge stations was in China compared to Tokyo and Seoul.

When the US gets it infrastructure upgraded to that of the Asia and Europe, we will see more BEV and less PHEV.

In the meantime, with low cost of fuel (outside California), it's a hard sell for BEV cars in most of the US.

Because CA has the highest cost of fuel, it's easier to sell BEV and PHEV cars - we see it every time the price of crude goes up, CA car dealers will sell more alternative fuel vehicles....
 
The Clarity PHEV certainly costs more to produce than the BEV version. In addition, the cost of ICE and associated systems will continue to rise while the costs of the electric power train (particularly batteries) continue to fall.
Long term picture:
How much more are people willing to pay for a PHEV over a BEV? And how many are willing to do so?
 
Texas22Step said:
That said, I agree with you that (particularly in the US) the PHEV is going to be a good choice for many manufacturers over the term of the next decade or so. The BEV "revolution" isn't going to happen in the US as fast as it may in other parts of the world (Europe & China, for example) because of high initial vehicle prices, declining government subsidies for electric vehicles, sustained low gasoline prices, and the fact that gasoline mpg (efficiency) for many ICE vehicles is increasing sharply.
Click to expand...

Distances traveled in the US are also higher and so their may result in a higher frequency of charging, which could dampen enthusiasm as it takes longer to charge.

And also Governmental policy has shifted back towards ICEs (at least at the Federal level). Also there is a perception that BEVs are associated with tree-huggers and Liberals, which might turn some off. It is a complex set of reasons and but as more products enter the market, volumes will grow.
 
insightman said:
Electrek today writes that Honda's working on another BEV and from now on it will be BEVs and hybrids only. Of course, because Honda understands the North American market very well, all the BEVs will be for Europe.

> Two small EVs in the next two years is a slow start. Nonetheless, Honda
> is saying that EVs are very much in its future, along with hybrids.
>
> At the same time, diesel, hydrogen, and plug-in hybrids are on the way out. [emphasis mine]
Click to expand...

Plug-in hybrids will be the standard powertrain in Europe. They are basically replacing diesel engine. I think PHEV will be something like 25% of the higher end models next year.
 
My commuter car currently is a 30 kWh Nissan LEAF (107 miles nominal EPA range). The only BEV that we could consider at this point for a road trip car would be a Tesla because of range and network.
There isn't enough of a non-Tesla network outside of CA to make even a Bolt with DCFC feasible for long trip, in my opinion.
 
DucRider said:
Long term picture:
How much more are people willing to pay for a PHEV over a BEV? And how many are willing to do so?
Click to expand...

For me the question is not relevant. I would not buy a BEV. They are 2 completely different vehicles. A PHEV is both an ICE and BEV.

Although the Clarity PHEV has less EV range than a BEV, it has infinitely more ICE range. It offers the best of both with very few limitations or compromises.
 
Landshark said:
For me the question is not relevant. I would not buy a BEV. They are 2 completely different vehicles. A PHEV is both an ICE and BEV.

Although the Clarity PHEV has less EV range than a BEV, it has infinitely more ICE range. It offers the best of both with very few limitations or compromises.
Click to expand...
Several years ago, a claim was posted that Volt owners were driving more electric miles than LEAF owners. This, despite the fact that the LEAF was rated at roughly twice the range per charge compared to the Volt.
The reason of course is that the Volt (and, of course, the Clarity PHEV) allows "full" use of the range whereas you'd be foolhardy to push a BEV within a few miles of its range limit on a regular basis.
 
css28 said:
Several years ago, a claim was posted that Volt owners were driving more electric miles than LEAF owners. This, despite the fact that the LEAF was rated at roughly twice the range per charge compared to the Volt.
The reason of course is that the Volt (and, of course, the Clarity PHEV) allows "full" use of the range whereas you'd be foolhardy to push a BEV within a few miles of its range limit on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

I suppose that makes the BEV even less desirable than I had imagined.
 
It's been interesting, adapting to my LEAF. I have a ~40 mile round trip commute with no available electricity at work. On top of that, I have a 10 mile round trip to choir rehearsal on Wednesday nights.

Yesterday morning I started with an 87% charge. I saw 9 °F on the morning drive and I did the drive in complete comfort by preconditioning to 70° before unplugging, heating to 60° on the way and using heated seat and steering wheel. I love my heated steering wheel.
Work to home was up to 23° outside and I heated the car to the same level for the last half of that trip (using just heated seat and steering wheel for the first half). Note that my LEAF has a heat pump, so after an initial 3 kW blitz to get up to temperature, the heater seemed to draw less than a kW on average for the second half of that trip.

By the time I got back from choir I was down to 14% (roughly 14 mile projected range). I could have plugged in at home before the choir run but I wanted to see how things would do without that.

The EPA rated range was 107 miles when new. The car's self-reported state of health is 86%, implying that I have about that much of the original range reasonably available.

I drove 50 miles total with two "from cold" heating events to 60° and ran from 87% to 14% over that distance.

So this gives you an idea of what my winter EV experience is going to be like. It's definitely different from driving a PHEV.
 
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