Wassup with Sales?

[Mowcowbell]

I'm surprised EV sales are not higher in states like Oregon that is a ZEV state, has state incentives, and has low electricity rates. Most of the ZEV states have very high electricity rates which makes the cost of "fuel" double the amount of some states.

I can imagine they don't sell a lot of BEV's in Hawaii... 27.5 cents per KWh!

 

[DucRider]

I'm surprised EV sales are not higher in states like Oregon that is a ZEV state, has state incentives, and has low electricity rates. Most of the ZEV states have very high electricity rates which makes the cost of "fuel" double the amount of some states.

Honda dealers in Oregon are selling every Clarity they get (PHEV and BEV). There is one showing on cars.com (in Bend). Not sure what that does to the theory of them shipping only to Section 177 States.
But then again inventory is not the same as sales. Reminds me of the local grocery store that was always out of a particular product we liked (spot on the shelf was always empty). Finally had a conversation with the manager and he said his computer program showed they only sold a few every week, so that is what they ordered

 

[4sallypat]

I'm waiting on the Pilot PHEV with AWD !

 

[2002]

Honda dealers in Oregon are selling every Clarity they get (PHEV and BEV). There is one showing on cars.com (in Bend). Not sure what that does to the theory of them shipping only to Section 177 States.

The theory is that in some ZEV states a particular car maker is short in hitting their required targets to get credits and they concentrate shipment and incentives to those states.

 

[lordsutch]

One possibility I've thought of that nobody seems to be mentioning is that the Clarity's sales drop-off coincided with the end of production on the Volt. I think it's likely a lot of people who ended up buying a Clarity started out looking at a PHEV with more brand awareness, and the Volt was by far the most well-known PHEV out there. Then when people cross-shopped they were seeing for basically the same MSRP they could get the Clarity with more interior space and equal or better features.

Now the main PHEV competitor is the Prius Prime, which like most of the lesser-range PHEVs (along with the Ioniq and Niro), is priced substantially lower so I'd imagine fewer people are looking at cross-shopping the Clarity.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

One possibility I've thought of that nobody seems to be mentioning is that the Clarity's sales drop-off coincided with the end of production on the Volt. I think it's likely a lot of people who ended up buying a Clarity started out looking at a PHEV with more brand awareness, and the Volt was by far the most well-known PHEV out there. Then when people cross-shopped they were seeing for basically the same MSRP they could get the Clarity with more interior space and equal or better features.

Exactly our path to the Clarity, which we had never heard of. In fact we test drove a Volt first, before the announcement they were being discontinued. We ended our search once we found the Clarity.

 

[Mowcowbell]

One possibility I've thought of that nobody seems to be mentioning is that the Clarity's sales drop-off coincided with the end of production on the Volt. I think it's likely a lot of people who ended up buying a Clarity started out looking at a PHEV with more brand awareness, and the Volt was by far the most well-known PHEV out there. Then when people cross-shopped they were seeing for basically the same MSRP they could get the Clarity with more interior space and equal or better features.

Now the main PHEV competitor is the Prius Prime, which like most of the lesser-range PHEVs (along with the Ioniq and Niro), is priced substantially lower so I'd imagine fewer people are looking at cross-shopping the Clarity.

Not sure the Prius Prime is actually priced less, when you figure in the $7500 Federal Tax credit on the Clarity. The Prime doesn't get the big rebate due to its smaller battery.

 

[MrFixit]

I added a few others that were specifically mentioned in this thread (including the Volt for reference)... Clarity is the bold red line.
With a little desire, the Clarity could easily beat the Prius Prime... Wouldn't that be great for bragging rights over the ubiquitous Prius family?

 

[MrFixit]

What about the possibility of being supply limited (not enough access to Rare Earth minerals & Lithium (batteries))?
Tesla is an exception because of their tremendous in-house captive facilities.

 

[2002]

Not sure the Prius Prime is actually priced less, when you figure in the $7500 Federal Tax credit on the Clarity. The Prime doesn't get the big rebate due to its smaller battery.

As far as features I would say Prime Plus compares to Clarity Base and Prime Premium to Clarity Touring. I am not including Prime Advanced because it has features above Clarity such as HUD, blind spot monitoring, cross traffic alert, parallel parking assist, rain sensing wipers.

The prices below are MSRP minus federal tax credit ($4,500 for the Prime)

Prime Plus 23,778
Clarity Base 26,830

Prime Premium 25,478
Clarity Touring 30,030

State incentives of course could come into play, along with factory incentives and dealer discounts. Except for the current (through today) $6,000 California incentive which dealers sometimes hold a firm grip onto, Prime normally has the advantage on factory incentives which typically range from $1,000 to $5,000 and are available in most east coast states not just California, and unlike Honda you don't have to be a resident of the state to get the Toyota factory incentive. Many people cross state lines to get a better deal.

Clarity normally has the advantage on dealer discounts as some dealers can at times be willing to discount between 5-10K. For Prime it's hard to get more than a few thousand off in addition to any factory incentives.

Clarity should be priced more due to the larger cabin size and basically twice the EV range. With a massive dealer discount it can even be comparably priced to Prius Prime which would for sure make it the better deal.

 

[MNSteve]

@MNSteve - Just curious, how much was paid for the new Corolla? Like others, my bottom line for the Clarity (Touring) was around $22K. I'll bet the Corolla (or a Civic) would be very close to this. The Clarity is a very different car indeed, but for those who can accept some risks, a great value.

Sorry, just saw this. I may not have been clear that both cars were used. I don't know how much she paid. She is far from rich so I'm thinking that even a great buy on a Clarity would be much more than she could pay. One of her decision points was the complexity of the Prius compared to the Corolla, which I think is a factor that the buying market has as a high priority. (As opposed to those of us gathered here to puzzle out the complexity of the Clarity.)

 

[Ohliuw]

As far as features I would say Prime Plus compares to Clarity Base and Prime Premium to Clarity Touring. I am not including Prime Advanced because it has features above Clarity such as HUD, blind spot monitoring, cross traffic alert, parallel parking assist, rain sensing wipers.

The prices below are MSRP minus federal tax credit ($4,500 for the Prime)

Prime Plus 23,778
Clarity Base 26,830

Prime Premium 25,478
Clarity Touring 30,030

State incentives of course could come into play, along with factory incentives and dealer discounts. Except for the current (through today) $6,000 California incentive which dealers sometimes hold a firm grip onto, Prime normally has the advantage on factory incentives which typically range from $1,000 to $5,000 and are available in most east coast states not just California, and unlike Honda you don't have to be a resident of the state to get the Toyota factory incentive. Many people cross state lines to get a better deal.

Clarity normally has the advantage on dealer discounts as some dealers can at times be willing to discount between 5-10K. For Prime it's hard to get more than a few thousand off in addition to any factory incentives.

Clarity should be priced more due to the larger cabin size and basically twice the EV range. With a massive dealer discount it can even be comparably priced to Prius Prime which would for sure make it the better deal.

Where do you find dealers that discount that much??? In Canada I can’t even get them to throw in floor liners with the base model... the Dealer invoice price is 1700-1800 below MSRP, but most of them are not even taking orders now.

I only found one who has 5 Touring trims and is willing to discount $1800, but it’s still not worth paying the extra for leather seats.

 

[Ohliuw]

Can’t dispute this. I take this as #1. The company has clearly given up on “selling” the car.

But unlike you I also still see the car as overall undesirable to most.

I think people frequenting this forum tend to forget that it is heavily populated with Californians and residents of other ZEV states, which frankly does not represent a cross section of the US car buying market as a whole. There is no doubt in my mind that if the whole country was similar to a California in terms of populace and political persuasion, this would be a MUCH more popular car. But it’s not. And I don’t chose sides on that or intend to start any political debate, just stating what I think is obvious to me but may be overlooked by those in ZEV states who may not really have a pulse on what the majority of the country seeks when buying a car....as I admit I don’t have a pulse on what Californians seek when buying a car.

And I’m only picking on California cuz it’s big and a general front runner on everything environmental.

I do know that Honda corporate actually did try to sell this car at one time in Indiana. There were a bunch of Clarity TV and radio commercials running back when I bought mine. Unfortunately it was clear that the dealers weren’t involved in the push. But Honda was trying to bring mass awareness to the car.

And despite this marketing push, and the $7500 fed rebate, and cheap financing, Clarity completely flopped here in Indiana. So I believe Honda made a smart business decision and gave up on trying to sell a car that most of the country doesn’t want. So the dealers finally purged their 2018 inventory, never to be replenished, and they accepted this car to be a perennial low volume specially vehicle relegated to the niche ZEV state market and maybe some other countries who are more open to it.

Even among those interested in saving gas here in the Midwest, the Insights and Accord Hybrids and Toyota Hybrids all sell like hot cakes. Still. Teslas sell pretty good too. But the Clarity? It’s just too weird, commutes and driving trips are too long, EV range is too short, and gas is too cheap to make electric propulsion any major savings, republican run states have no desire to further subsidize a car, and many of those other Hybrids get better true gas mileage than Clarity does anyway after the battery is dead.

And Canada....man I just don’t get it. This car has to be MAJORLY subsidized somehow up there to make sense out of owning one in a climate with winters the long and temps that extreme cold. Or maybe gas is that expensive up there? I have no idea...

And...these are just my thoughts, guesses, and interpretations. Which means many will likely disagree with me, and some of them may be misconstrued by me, or I may be flat out wrong....

Well, first of all the msrp of the base model is about 30k US.

Most people commute within 30-35kms, so even if the heating reduces the range to half, it would still bring you to work and charge it there. There is also the battery heater when plugged in, which is not available in the US models (the reason why I am shopping for clarity over Niro, where the base model doesn’t come with battery heater in Canada, nor can you add it as option).

I live in Quebec, so with both rebates, it will come down to 20k US (although you are paying 15% taxes on the sale price though). You cannot anything else (excluding some US sedans, but yeah...)of that size with so many options for that price in gasoline’s.

Electricity is 4cents, gas is $3 US.

So for me as a Canadian is a win-win-win-win

 

[2002]

Where do you find dealers that discount that much???

Basically any region where cars have been sitting on the lot for over six months without moving. Why this situation exists in some places yet other cities have virtually no cars in stock and thus no reason for dealers to heavily discount, we don't know. We have our ideas but since we don't have all the facts behind it we are left to speculate. Factory incentives and state tax breaks may explain some of it but not all of it. I don't know that 2019's are being discounted as much other than the recently expired (for now) $6,000 California incentive, most of the big dealer discounts outside of California have been for 2018's. By dealer discount I mean coming out of the dealer's pocket (as far as we know) not from Honda incentive to the dealer.

 

[MrFixit]

Here is a sales update that includes July...

* Note - on the previous plots (June) I had a scaling issue where the Clarity was accidentally on a secondary axis. It is fixed here. *

Clarity trending down again, while Prius Prime holds strong.

 

[Dan Albrich]

It seems timing is important. Here in Eugene, OR-- at the time we bought our Clarity, the local dealer had six of them on the lot. Some basic, and some Touring and even color choices. I could of had white, black, red (or whatever that one is called) or green (the one my wife and I chose).

Now there are none, and good luck finding one. For many months our dealer shows '0' on the lot and its been that way for many months. If the car is too hard to get, folks will just move on to something else. In fact I thought I wanted Hyundai Sonata PHEV and when no one on west coast had one, 'setted' on Clarity. Glad I did. I would not of liked a PHEV with lower range.

Also note Toyota Prius Prime (as an example) seems to be always readily available here.

 

[Teslawannabe]

I just checked the inventory of the three dealers nearest to me. There is just one 2018 Clarity PHEV Touring; just one at one dealership. Honda has lease and finance deals on just about every other Honda vehicle, but significantly not the Clarity. When I bought my Clarity last year, Honda had a 0.9% interest deal. I think that Honda is discontinuing the Clarity PHEV.

I agree, Honda seems to be headed in that direction. They don't want to sell it and are getting rid of it.

 

[Teslawannabe]

Interesting. I tried to go to Autotrader on the web a few minutes ago and got only this error message: "We're sorry for any inconvenience, but the site is currently unavailable. Please contact our support team for help."

I'll try it again later to see if it has different / more listings. In any case, I suspect the vast majority of the listings you uncovered are for the base model and are likely very limited in color choices to black (never work in Texas), or white (not my taste). A search I ran on cars.com for "new" 2018 Clarity PHEV touring trip in the DFW area showed only one car, and that one is white. I had the local Honda dealer, who had plenty in stock just 6 months ago, do a search for me as well, but they came up dry too and told me they aren't even allowed to order either the 2018 nor the 2019 version. (Probably have to take that claim from a dealer with a grain of salt, though.)

In addition, Honda apparently is letting some of the common parts go on "national back-order" status. I had a rock hit my windshield and need a new one, but they can't be ordered. The supposed "in-stock" date of 6/23 has passed without any reason, extension, new ETA, or otherwise.

Something is fishy with Honda and its Clarity right now.

Ouch!! Windshield availability is a big concern down the road. What happens , total the car for a windshield? Not good for us owners.

 

[Lowell_Greenberg]

Ouch!! Windshield availability is a big concern down the road. What happens , total the car for a windshield? Not good for us owners.

Whether actually required by law or not, it seems hard to believe Honda would not feel obligated to stock parts within the warranty period. The California mandated emissions warranty, covers a large number of key components for up to 10 years/150k. Windshield breakage can be caused by structural defects and/or road hazards and could fall under Hondacare.

And, goodwill, is often considered a key component of the value of a business. Abandoning a car (and especially parts production) after two years may engender the opposite.

The price of parts may be another matter- but again automotive insiders and Clarity customers will take note. And customer perceived value has a ripple effect. 25k customers, network with friends who have other friends, etc.

However, I believe the law offers little protection, even for limited warranties.

Finally, since I believe the 2019 Clarity's limited PHEV sales in the US is mostly is mostly due to constrained supply, not customer indifference- this would make its exit even more troubling. If Honda does this, they may want to consider a buy back program. Ditto for Canada and Japan- and wherever else it is sold- if any where else.


Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[insightman]

I wrote a bunch of letters to Honda, begging them to bring their upcoming all-electric Honda e to North America. Now I realize that Honda's experience with the Clarity PHEV rightly indicates that neither their dealer network nor the SUV/pickup-loving North American vehicle buyers are ready for a sub-compact electric car with 120 miles of EV range. So even if Honda brought a few of them here, parts availability would likely be a problem as it is proving to be with the Clarity.

Now BMW's decision to simply electrify the MINI Cooper rather than build another bespoke vehicle like the i3 makes a lot of sense to me. If I buy the upcoming MINI Cooper SE, I won't have to worry about the availability of things like windshields, door handles, rear-view cameras, etc. Interestingly, Germain, the same company that owns our local Honda dealership also owns the local MINI dealership. So now that the Clarity PHEV has whetted my desire for an urban BEV, that desire and Honda's Europe-only decision on the Honda e will result in me buying my first non-Honda car since 1986. The MINI Cooper SE is due in March.