RECALL) KONA EV - BMS UPDATE and 20% Reduce cell capacity

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Ed C said:
Problem is, the batteries are third party distributors....not sure if they have the means to refurbish old batteries.

Plus, the third party is refurbishing the batteries at a loss...unless Hyundai is paying them, which means Hyundai is eating the loss. 30,000 cars are alot of batteries.
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I can assure you, Hyundai won't be eating the loss, their insurance company will and if they can prove it is the fault of the third party, their insurance will.

But, everything I have seen has said that they won't be replacing the batteries on all of the cars.
 
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Ed C said:
All this brings up another question. Are cars manufactured before Sept. 29, 2019 have batteries which are magically immune from such fires???? I doubt it.
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I don't; Something could have happened on that date that altered the manufacturing process just ever so slightly, causing some key components to be out of spec. The reference design could be perfectly fine and pass every test, but if the assembly is a off by a few tenths of a millimeter, or a material used isn't up to spec, and suddenly you have a big problem. (Looking at you, Samsung...)

It's also totally plausible that such a problem could be mitigated with software... If you can control things to avoid whatever specific conditions cause the problems to manifest.
 
I know (from the Hyundai tech who fixed my bad BMS update) that one thing the BMS update does is tighten the spec on cell-to-cell deviation - maybe looking for bad cells as early as possible? Not sure if it just disables charging, or the whole car if out of spec.
 
Ed C said:
Problem is, the batteries are third party distributors....not sure if they have the means to refurbish old batteries.

Plus, the third party is refurbishing the batteries at a loss...unless Hyundai is paying them, which means Hyundai is eating the loss. 25,000 cars are alot of batteries.

All this brings up another question. Are cars manufactured before Sept. 29, 2019 have batteries which are magically immune from such fires???? I doubt it.
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Some news sites say Sept 2017, and some say Sept 2019 - I am wondering if the 2019 is a typo, and it is really 2017.

If you go online to the hyundai parts sites, the entire battery assembly is broken down in sub-assemblies. The cells come in assemblies - the car has 5 of them total.

Hyundai 375J1-K4000 BATTERY MODULE ASSY-TYPE A
Hyundai 375J2-K4000 BATTERY MODULE ASSY-TYPE B

It isn't at all clear whether these assemblies can be further broken down and refurbished or not. John Kelly at Weber State did a youtube video of a complete teardown of the battery assembly for a Chevy Bolt, and for Chevy, those subassemblies can't be easily further broken down without breaking something. It might be the same with Hyundai - or it might not. No way to be sure..

In any event, if you had a pack with one bad cell, in *theory* one could replace just one of the 5 sub-assemblies, and be good to go. I wouldn't expect a dealer to have to do this.

Finally, I would note that since these are lithium ion batteries, they are considered hazmat, and need to ship by truck. You can read the TSB that describes battery replacement here:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/MC-10173530-0001.pdf

You can see two different styles of shipping container. One that is "OEM", the other that is for refurbished batteries.
 
mikeselectricstuff said:
I know (from the Hyundai tech who fixed my bad BMS update) that one thing the BMS update does is tighten the spec on cell-to-cell deviation - maybe looking for bad cells as early as possible? Not sure if it just disables charging, or the whole car if out of spec.
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Yes, the cell to cell deviation now has to be < 0.1V. The original TSB comes right out and says this - if you come into the shop with more than this they need to replace the battery *first* before attempting to apply the software update.

If they skip that check, then you end up in my situation - it throws a fault if you try and charge the battery, and the car has to go and sit at the dealership until a replacement battery becomes available.

I should note that I believe my car was right on the edge - it is indeed possible that it barely passed the test so they did the update, but by the time I got home, the deviation increased just a little bit - just enough to put it over the edge.
 
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That adds context to the phone call I had earlier this morning to schedule my Kona for the coolant pump and BMS issue. The service rep called it a "BMS verification". When I pressed her on it, she said that depending on how the verification went, it would be decided what additional steps to take.

ericy said:
If they skip that check, then you end up in my situation - it throws a fault if you try and charge the battery, and the car has to go and sit at the dealership until a replacement battery becomes available.

I should note that I believe my car was right on the edge - it is indeed possible that it barely passed the test so they did the update, but by the time I got home, the deviation increased just a little bit - just enough to put it over the edge.
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The following was posted recently by member Anaglypta on Speakev forum, its interesting info:

"That sounds correct based on some information that came my way (I've redacted identifying info to protect my source). this is a reply from a Hyundai Korea engineer to an email enquiry. The reply was in Korean and has been translated, so looses a little bit of clarity, but bears out what you've been told, confirms that Aux Battery Saver+ gets removed, and I'm guessing that NOTE 2 below confirms that 4 cumulative REGISTERS get reset to zero (CCC CDC CEC CED) which gives weird GoM readings after the update.
John

[Purpose]

This upgrade changes the high voltage battery sensitive and frequently checks for cell voltage deviation and insulation resistance,
so that problems can be identified and taken early in the event of a hazardous situation.

[Changed Logic]
1. Proceed the upgrade, the cell deviation and insulation resistance measurements become sensitive.
1) Cell deviation)
- Before : Detect problems when voltage deviation is higher than 1V.
- After : higher than 100mV (Level 1) / higher than 150mV (Level 2)
2) Insulation Resistance)
- Before : Less than 300kΩ
- After : Less than 900kΩ (Level 1) / Less than 700 kΩ (Level 2)

2. The inspection cycle will be changed as shown below.
- Before : Check the condition of the vehicle once 24 hours after starting off)
(At this time, check the condition of the 12V battery to support charging
from the high voltage battery if the SOC is insufficient)
- After : Monitor the vehicle condition for 2 hours in a row after starting off, then check the condition of the vehicle for 4 hours. (Total of 2.5 days)
* Check for 2 hours in a row for the first time only
* Check the condition of the vehicle once every 24 hours after 2.5 days.
* Check auxiliary battery SOC when monitoring the condition for supplementation.

* NOTE 1) As a result, the dark current can reach up to 300 mA even after starting off.
Based on the logic above, it will be lowered to 50 mA level after 2 hours.
* NOTE 2) In some cases, it is reported that the four controllers are discharged after updating them.
This may occur if the vehicle is parked in a short drive with a large number of auxiliary battery SOCs.
* NOTE 3) In some cases, you may be asked that the battery charge function button is disappeared in the cluster.
When vehicle monitoring starts, the 12V battery SOC is also checked at all the time.
then if insufficient, The auxiliary battery is charged. (The charge logic is always active.)"

https://www.speakev.com/threads/kona-ev-recall-in-korea.153828/#post-2900846
 
What the heck do they mean by "level 1" and "level 2"?? Chargers?? Or something else?
 
ericy said:
What the heck do they mean by "level 1" and "level 2"?? Chargers?? Or something else?
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I would speculate, reading the engineers reply together with the BMS TSB, that cars that have had the BMS update successfully applied have their HV battery monitored as follows:-

Cell Volt difference less than 0.1V Car operates as intended (Like a brand new car off the lot) and rapid charges as per the improved curves seen on 2020 model year cars.

Cell Volt difference more than 0.1V but less than 0.15V (Level 1) Car goes into a reduced rapid charge mode where the charge curves drop sharply at a lower percentage. If you're in this mode it is probably worth AC charging your battery to 100% in order to invoke the cell balancing routine which MAY correct the problem!

Cell Volt difference more than 0.15V (Level 2) Car won't charge and throws a warning message to get it to a dealer! The dealer would then arrange to replace the battery under warranty, assuming that it's still in warranty.

I've seen reports of cars that have had reduced charging curves after the BMS update, but the Cell Volt difference hasn't been included in the report. If anyone out there has this problem after the BMS update and has Torque Pro, it would be really helpful to know what the Cell Volt difference is on your car.

John
 
I have to think "Level 1" etc is not a global term and is unlikely to appear in procedures written in Korean. It may refer to tolerance tiers for the measurement taken.

It's fairly clear the allowable ranges of both cell voltage deviation and insulation resistance must test well below the limits imposed by the BMS update otherwise, as noted, it could trigger shorty after the customer drives the car home.
 
KiwiME said:
I have to think "Level 1" etc is not a global term and is unlikely to appear in procedures written in Korean. It may refer to tolerance tiers for the measurement taken.
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Always a problem when translating a document in Google!

John.
 
Just checked mine; November 2019. Poopsticks!

If Anaglypta's interpretation is correct, then it definitely seems a case of trying to mitigate a hardware problem in software. I wonder what the actual issue is, since the described "fix" seems more like a mechanism to detect a possible fault early rather than work around it. Insulation testing and strict cell balancing makes me think there is a low key short bypassing some cells or something, and the fires are the result of a cell/cells being abnormally higher than the rest and getting overcooked during charging.

I'm also wondering if the BMS update some vehicles have already gotten is actually related to this like some have suggested, unless Hyundai has been covertly rolling out the patch for a while now? Nothing to do but wait for a notice I guess...
 
Genevamech said:
If Anaglypta's interpretation is correct, then it definitely seems a case of trying to mitigate a hardware problem in software. I wonder what the actual issue is, since the described "fix" seems more like a mechanism to detect a possible fault early rather than work around it. Insulation testing and strict cell balancing makes me think there is a low key short bypassing some cells or something, and the fires are the result of a cell/cells being abnormally higher than the rest and getting overcooked during charging.
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I think of it more as early detection of a problem in the battery pack - a check engine light is far preferable to a fire. The theory is that you bring the car in, the battery gets replaced (under warranty, hopefully).

From Hyundai's standpoint, trying to diagnose the underlying problem after a battery fire is going to be damned near impossible. The fire pretty much destroys the entire pack. If they can get some battery packs back from the field that have become unbalanced, they might have a better shot at doing some forensic analysis as to what was really going on.
 
Of all the incident reports I can find, it looks like the only one where the owner claims the car wasn't plugged in was the July 2019 Montreal fire. I strongly suspect it was plugged in, maybe by another family member without his knowledge or he simply forgot. For the meantime, out of precaution I'm charging the car outside and not to 100%, but I feel pretty confident that otherwise parking in the garage is pretty safe.

This, from Wikipedia:
Hyundai Kona Electric[edit]
First reported Hyundai Kona fire took place in Hyundai’s Ulsan production plant in May 2018.[110]
On July 26, 2019, a Kona Electric was parked in a residential garage in Montreal, Canada. The owner reported that the car was not plugged in at the time. An unprovoked fire began, and this triggered an explosion that projected the garage door across the street and caused damage to the attached structure. There were no injuries.[111]
Another Kona Electric caught fire while charging in Gangneung, Gangwon Province, South Korea on July 28, 2019.[112]
A fire in a Kona Electric occurred in Bucheon, Gyeonggi Province, South Korea on August 9, 2019. The flames began at the floor of the rear seat of the vehicle, which was parked at the time.[113]
On August 13, 2019 a Kona Electric caught fire while being charged in an underground parking level at an apartment in Sejong City, South Korea. The vehicle was completely destroyed.[114]
On May 29, 2020 a Kona EV which was being charged at the electric charging station in Sangyeok-dong, Buk-gu, Daegu, Korea caught on fire. The fire went out in two hours, but the vehicle was completely burned, causing 29 million won of property damage. [115]
Kona EV caught fire in Jeju Island, South Korea on Sept. 26, 2020. The vehicle was parked, connected to an EV charger inside the parking lot of an apartment building. [116]
On Oct 4, 2020 a Hyundai Kona electric vehicle (EV) burst into flames in the early hours of Sunday morning while parked in the underground parking lot of an apartment in Daegu, South Korea [117]
 
The car & driver article says that packs would be replaced. Y'all are saying that's not
true, H/K is just applying this lame firmware bandaid. If the cells are truly defective then
H/K's efforts would be better spent on the logistics of REPLACING thousands of packs
in the most scaleable way they can. Competent dealerships with the right lifting gear
and good truck-shipping locations could probably handle this at a fairly brisk pace once
things ramped up, *if* they ramp it up.

_H*
 
hobbit said:
The car & driver article says that packs would be replaced. Y'all are saying that's not
true, H/K is just applying this lame firmware bandaid. If the cells are truly defective then
H/K's efforts would be better spent on the logistics of REPLACING thousands of packs
in the most scaleable way they can. Competent dealerships with the right lifting gear
and good truck-shipping locations could probably handle this at a fairly brisk pace once
things ramped up, *if* they ramp it up.

_H*
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Oh, I'm sure they'll be replacing batteries. From a logistics & cost perspective it makes sense for Hyundai to:
  1. Work to get the BMS update onto all affected Kona EV's. The update is a critical piece to start diagnosing batteries which aren't staying in spec. It's the front-line to help identify specific batteries to replace which saves them time & money versus replacing all of them
  2. To minimize impact to owners with faulted batteries, they should simply replace them (most likely with remanufactured batteries) so the owners can be on their way
  3. Hyundai will then likely take apart the faulted battery packs to replace the faulty cells, check wiring & wear/tear, re-certify the battery and add it to the available stock of remanufactured battery packs
 
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