Clarity Issues

[Clarity_Newbie]

@Casey Martin @DennisH

Today I let my Clarity go to EV 0 and transition to ICE on its own. I did not engage HV mode myself nor did I engage Econ or Sport modes. Test was 18 min duration for 16 miles. Speeds 0 to 61 mph. Temps 44 to 46 f. Just routine around town driving and since traffic was light, I decided I could take some pics...and be safe at the same time.

The link below will take you to a web page which has 5 sets of pictures, 3 pics in each set. They depict scan gauge data, the center stack and the dashboard. No more than 15 seconds elapsed between the 3 pics per set.

The scan gauge is set to display... MXS...Hybrid battery cell max SOC (%), STC...hybrid battery SOC (%), HBV...hybrid battery voltage (volts) and RPM's.

Link https://bdacomputer.homestead.com/

What I thought might be of interest to you are the pics of the center-stack showing energy flow...as a real life example of what should/could be displayed under actual 0 EV conditions going x miles per hour. The scan gauge data may prove useful if you hook one up to your vehicle for comparison.

The million dollar question is...what does your energy flow show when you get the high revs? Right before? During?

With any luck Honda USA and the dealership will provide all the answers...until then data may help figure it out.

Surely others know more than I about what the energy flow should be/look like when in 0 EV state in the real world. Hopefully they will weigh in as well. More input/knowledge is a good thing.

Anywho...hope this helps.

Good luck.

 

[Yannick]

Sorry to join the unlucky group of Clarity owners who have experienced high revving and simultaneous loss of power while on a freeway. Very scary and unsettling. As background, our car was originally delivered to the dealer in Jan, 2018, we purchased it in late Aug, 2018, and currently have 7,000 miles on it. Despite its numerous quirks, we've really liked the car up to this point. But what happened to us is a major safety issue and I'm very concerned for my family's safety going forward.
On Jan. 13 were driving on a super-flat stretch of highway in Iowa (thankfully on a Sunday a.m. with little traffic), 30 degrees, 70 mph. The car had automatically shifted from EV to HV as designed, when suddenly the ICE revved up and speed declined -- as if the transmission had suddenly been disconnected from the engine or power source. Total loss of wheel speed control. My wife was able to safely slow down and get off the side of the road. We turned the car off, then back on, hoping some computer just needed to 'reset'. Eventually we were able to re-enter the freeway and get back up to speed, but with a sense the transmission was connecting/disconnecting for awhile. Once back up to speed, no problems for another hour. After being parked for 4-5 hours, got out of parking lot Ok, but then a similar problem when going 20-30 mph -- a sense of power, no power -- but eventually back to speed and a return home trip of 1.5 hours with no more problems.
After comparing notes, my wife and I remembered a similar thing had happened to each of us once before, but it was at slow speeds around town so didn't seem like a big deal. It's happened once since that day it happened twice on Jan. 13, again at slow speed in town.
I immediately scheduled a service appointment with my local dealer, which occurred yesterday:
1) The Technician was unable to replicate the problem -- no surprise there, it's happened 'only' 5 times in 5 months.
2) No abnormal 'codes' or events were recorded by the Clarity computer, as determined when they hooked it up for a diagnostic.
3) When the Technician called "Honda Tech in CA" they said no Technician has ever called with that type of problem before.
The local service Manager was nice, but offered that their shop doesn't have the expertise to diagnose a complex system like that in the Clarity. We agreed I would continue to document problems if they continued to occur. He understood the severity of the problem as related to safety, but honestly wasn't able to help. So, this will have to be handled by Honda USA, I guess.
Very disappointed, as we loved the car, but man, how can we in good confidence take this car into a large city or a mountainous area safely with this problem? How does Honda think they can sell a new car with a warranty and then just say, "sorry"?

 

[Yannick]

Dennis, please email me at [email protected]
I can help you. Tks

 

[David Towle]

I believe 45 mph is the minimum speed for the clutch to engage because the gearing for the single-speed transmission is like a 6th gear in a multi-speed transmission. After the clutch engages, I've been able to keep it engaged with my speed as low as 41 mph, but I haven't tried to see how fast I can go in Engine Drive mode.

Note that in the diagram, the speed of the Clarity doesn't change while in Engine Drive mode, indicating it's expected to be used in a speed-holding action rather than accelerating. That sort of makes Honda's claim of 212 hp bogus because when you're accelerating full-out, you have only the 181 hp from the traction motor being fed from both the battery and ICE-driven starter motor/generator.

@insightman I don't believe our characterization of usable max power on this car has been correct. An electric motor is a constant torque device. Therefore it produces maximum hp only at max rpm. My guess is our electric motor is geared for a top speed of about 100 mph, so at 50 mph the electric motor hp is only HALF its rated hp output. Because the ICE is also geared one speed to the wheels at 50 mph it is probably also at about half its maximum hp.

The only way to see near max hp in this car is to accelerate full-out at high speed maybe 90 mph in gear icon mode. And determining the actual max hp point requires comparing the hp vs rpm curve for the ICE with the straight line for the motor, and add in any battery pack limitations, not easy.

A "normal" car with a CVT or an AT with a torque converter can go to the max hp area and hold that for maximum acceleration. A manual transmission car can dance around the max hp area by shifting gears. Our cars can't do that. They can accelerate quite well because the electric motor produces constant torque from 0 rpm, which is much better than an ICE, but maximum hp is more of a fantasy than reality.

None of this is an operational problem, our cars do just fine in the real world.

 

[David Towle]

Oh and of course BEVs are similar, max hp only at max rpm, but the hp is much easier to calculate without the interactions between the motor and the ICE.

 

[insightman]

The only way to see near max hp in this car is to accelerate full-out at high speed maybe 90 mph in gear icon mode.

I agree that would be the only way to see near-max hp. However, the Clarity PHEV drops out of Engine drive (gear-icon) mode whenever you attempt serious acceleration. That's why I call the max horsepower claim bogus. When you accelerate full-out, the electric motor is on its own, producing 181 hp max.

 

[David Towle]

But again the motor's max hp is only at full speed and we never accelerate at 100 mph do we? So then realistically at say highway speeds of 70 there is only 127 hp available for max acceleration. So really the 181 hp claim, at least in comparison to ICE cars, is at least a bit artificial too (again same for all BEVs).

Even a narrow range CVT would help performance a lot.

 

[JustAnotherPoorDriver]

@insightman I don't believe our characterization of usable max power on this car has been correct. An electric motor is a constant torque device. Therefore it produces maximum hp only at max rpm. My guess is our electric motor is geared for a top speed of about 100 mph, so at 50 mph the electric motor hp is only HALF its rated hp output. Because the ICE is also geared one speed to the wheels at 50 mph it is probably also at about half its maximum hp.

Maybe I missed it earlier, but wouldn't the top HP of the gas engine be engineered to be the top speed that there's a gear icon (when the gear icon isn't showing, the gas engine is just generating electricity)? Does the gear icon show above ~70mph?

 

[David Towle]

I don't think so, it should be all about efficiency and who knows how efficiency corresponds to engine output.

 

[JustAnotherPoorDriver]

sorry if I wasn't clear. what I was saying was if we assume max HP at max RPM for the gas engine, which was stated earlier, we need to know the top speed at which the gas engine and wheels can be coupled to draw the total hp curve and find the max HP. Some of the post before were assuming that the max horsepowerfrom the gas engine is at 100 mph, but that would have been a bizzare engineering decision by Honda if the max wheel coupling speed is for example 70. They would have they would have set max RPM to be equal to the max speed at which the system allows the wheels to couple so we need to know what that speed is in order to figure the total hp curve

 

[Agzand]

But again the motor's max hp is only at full speed and we never accelerate at 100 mph do we? So then realistically at say highway speeds of 70 there is only 127 hp available for max acceleration. So really the 181 hp claim, at least in comparison to ICE cars, is at least a bit artificial too (again same for all BEVs).

Even a narrow range CVT would help performance a lot.

In terms of driving experience I think it is probably close to a car with a 180 hp engine. The torque is more important than HP for normal driving speeds. A 180 hp gas engine will also generate much lower HP for 99% of normal driving.

 

[smith ho]

This thread has a lot of topic on issues. It would be nice if those are separated to topic or catgorized to each issues accordingly. Now I have to read or scan all the pages so far :-( I wonder if there is a moderator.

 

[David Towle]

sorry if I wasn't clear. what I was saying was if we assume max HP at max RPM for the gas engine, which was stated earlier, we need to know the top speed at which the gas engine and wheels can be coupled to draw the total hp curve and find the max HP. Some of the post before were assuming that the max horsepowerfrom the gas engine is at 100 mph, but that would have been a bizzare engineering decision by Honda if the max wheel coupling speed is for example 70. They would have they would have set max RPM to be equal to the max speed at which the system allows the wheels to couple so we need to know what that speed is in order to figure the total hp curve

Highest gear icon speed I've seen is about 75, but my guess is this will go up in warmer weather.

 

[Shak]

Not really using the heater. One note, my MPKg is still at around 60. It is just that my tank cannot fill to the maximum capacity of Hydrogen. Even at almost empty, I am only get 2.8kg. Something is definitely not right. I have received a response from Honda and it is a joke -- oh the range is based on rigorous tests by EPA. I am not asking about MPKg, I am asking whey I can't fill my tank to the maximum capacity?

 

[Casey Martin]

Casey Martin
Very interesting that this also happens with relative high SOC.

Couple quick questions...do happen to know if the Clarity went into EV mode (or at least the EV light came on) while you were "coasting"? Can you recall if the engine clutch light (gear icon) was on just prior to when the vehicle started coasting?

The reason I ask is in my Clarity the EV light tends to comes on in scenarios similar to yours...which may be informative because of the corresponding RPM drop which will cause the engine clutch to "disengage" if in fact it was engaged.

I am in the middle of researching RPM's relative to when the engine clutch engages/disengages. The preliminary info indicates the engine clutch engages when the Clarity is already up to speed which indicates to me it is designed to maintain vehicle speed as the primary function...not to provide power for quick acceleration. This may explain why the clutch will stay engaged during the slightest of inclines but disengage on significant inclines when the request for more power is made.

This may also help explain why some folks see it for long distances and others don't. If you have a steady foot on the throttle and maintain RPM's or run cruise control...the engine clutch stays engaged for miles. If you are the type to constantly speed up or change lanes etc...ie ask for more power...then it may engage/disengage frequently.

As an example...on my Clarity...at 45 mph the data indicates the engine clutch engages at ~1600 RPMs and stays engaged +/- 5% of that RPM before it disengages. I also have data taken at 60 mph which indicates similar ratios at that speed as well. I am looking at a host of inputs trying to find commonality. This will take time. Results to date are very preliminary.

I'd appreciate it if you can provide me with any pre-high rev experience info.

Good luck.

I have monitored this for well over a week now. Luckily the high revving with no power issue has not happened again. When I coast through the toll booth most of the time it does not go into EV mode. It usually stays in HV mode. I noticed it did switch to EV mode once but switched back to HV mode when I began to accelerate. When I accelerate after clearing the toll booth the motor will rev high but there has been the normal amount of power that the ICE provides. It has doesn't have the acceleration of EV mode of course but accelerated as expected.

As of now I haven't encountered the ICE high revving without any power again. I do feel this car is seriously under powered when the SOV is at zero. With that said I am "learning" to drive the car based on when I will be able to charge again. For example, if I know I am going to be going over 35 miles without being able to charge I switch to HV mode as soon as I am cruising on the highway. I then switch back to EV mode when in the city or on roads where more power is required. Using HV mode on hilly back roads is atrocious. The motor will be screaming and it performs horribly. On flat roads HV mode does fine.

Now that I am learning when to use what mode I can prevent the need to use HV mode in less than ideal situations. With that said I need to be aware of that and plan according. I can't just jump in and drive in EV mode and not adjust the modes for the length of trip I am taking. More or less there is a learning curve and I am getting use to it. I know this will be less of an issue when temperatures rise. Below 30 degrees I am averaging between 30-35 miles on a full charge. I am hoping to get close to 50 miles once the temps are in the 50s and above.

 

[Yannick]

My car has done this a couple of times. Both times it was when I was in HV mode with an almost full battery. There is a bridge about 3 miles from my work. I was coasting down the back side of the bridge and rolled through the EZ Pass toll booth at about 40+ MPH. After exiting the toll booth I tried to accelerate and there was almost zero power. The ICE was screaming but the car barely accelerated. It was very odd especially since the battery was almost full. I am guessing but it seems to be an issue around 45-50mph. I believe that is when the "transmission" can "lock up" with the ICE. I don't know the exact technical terminology but that is what it feels like. It seems like when it is "locked up" in HV mode it can't use power from the battery. Then when it "unlocks" it goes back to having full power. This problem should be correctable with a software update once Honda figures out what exactly is causing this to happen.

Ok I was finally able to duplicate the high revs and other issues (up to 16 now) and make videos.
I put 3 examples below, check the other videos on my you tube channel, it is pretty crazy to have so many issues and Honda does not do anything.
High vs:

Engine turning on by itself when barely accelerating an battery full:

HV only and battery starts charging:


To shed light on the issue: 1) Dealerships and Honda will never admit that something is wrong with the car because the minute they do, if they cannot fix it we can go after them through lemon law or class action. This is why we (group of people having High revs issues or other electronic problems) have been told that nothing is wrong with the car or that they cannot fix because they cannot duplicate.

2) Arbitration does not work, went through that, lots of stress and waste of time. Honda lied through their teeth to save their butt + whatever the arbitrator said, they are not following (fix car and have specialist come inspect vehicle).

3) Per Lemon law expert I hired, Honda has changed the way they handle claims, they prefers to go to court and drain you of all your money and time + bring an outside engineer that will say: I did not build the car but I do not see anything wrong with it. If you don't have deep pocket you are guaranteed to lose.

So after 8 months of battling and sending over 20 videos and photos to the dealership to show the issues I got to a point were Honda sent me a letter saying that they were done and the dealer refused that I drop the car off. Yes I am not kidding!

I finally sent the dealership a nasty email telling them that I had contacted all the news channels, my insurance company (do this if you have the high revs), with the you tube link to the high revs and if they didn't fix my car immediately I would sue them. Well, I received a phone call yesterday and they are sending a specialist. Now I am not sure if it will work but we might have some progress and maybe a fix down the road.

PS: Has anyone seen on carcomplaint.com that 2 people got stuck wide open and totaled their car? One got injured. Very scary when your car has over 15 different electronic issue and Honda doesn't give a crap about you!

Well, I guess my complaints to the dealer and Honda have fallen on deaf ears...

 

[petteyg359]

PS: Has anyone seen on carcomplaint.com that 2 people got stuck wide open and totaled their car? One got injured. Very scary when your car has over 15 different electronic issue and Honda doesn't give a crap about you!

99.999% of such cases are morons who are stomping on the wrong pedal and not letting go. Take them with mountains of salt.

 

[Phunny]

Ok I was finally able to duplicate the high revs and other issues (up to 16 now) and make videos.
I put 3 examples below, check the other videos on my you tube channel, it is pretty crazy to have so many issues and Honda does not do anything.
High vs:
Engine turning on by itself when barely accelerating an battery full:
HV only and battery starts charging:

To shed light on the issue: 1) Dealerships and Honda will never admit that something is wrong with the car because the minute they do, if they cannot fix it we can go after them through lemon law or class action. This is why we (group of people having High revs issues or other electronic problems) have been told that nothing is wrong with the car or that they cannot fix because they cannot duplicate.
2) Arbitration does not work, went through that, lots of stress and waste of time. Honda lied through their teeth to save their butt + whatever the arbitrator said, they are not following (fix car and have specialist come inspect vehicle).
3) Per Lemon law expert I hired, Honda has changed the way they handle claims, they prefers to go to court and drain you of all your money and time + bring an outside engineer that will say: I did not build the car but I do not see anything wrong with it. If you don't have deep pocket you are guaranteed to lose.
So after 8 months of battling and sending over 20 videos and photos to the dealership to show the issues I got to a point were Honda sent me a letter saying that they were done and the dealer refused that I drop the car off. Yes I am not kidding!
I finally sent the dealership a nasty email telling them that I had contacted all the news channels, my insurance company (do this if you have the high revs), with the you tube link to the high revs and if they didn't fix my car immediately I would sue them. Well, I received a phone call yesterday and they are sending a specialist. Now I am not sure if it will work but we might have some progress and maybe a fix down the road.
PS: Has anyone seen on carcomplaint.com that 2 people got stuck wide open and totaled their car? One got injured. Very scary when your car has over 15 different electronic issue and Honda doesn't give a crap about you!

All if those videos are exactly what I would expect from a PHEV.

 

[Lex]

Ok I was finally able to duplicate the high revs and other issues (up to 16 now) and make videos.
I put 3 examples below, check the other videos on my you tube channel, it is pretty crazy to have so many issues and Honda does not do anything.
High vs:
Engine turning on by itself when barely accelerating an battery full:
HV only and battery starts charging:

To shed light on the issue: 1) Dealerships and Honda will never admit that something is wrong with the car because the minute they do, if they cannot fix it we can go after them through lemon law or class action. This is why we (group of people having High revs issues or other electronic problems) have been told that nothing is wrong with the car or that they cannot fix because they cannot duplicate.
2) Arbitration does not work, went through that, lots of stress and waste of time. Honda lied through their teeth to save their butt + whatever the arbitrator said, they are not following (fix car and have specialist come inspect vehicle).
3) Per Lemon law expert I hired, Honda has changed the way they handle claims, they prefers to go to court and drain you of all your money and time + bring an outside engineer that will say: I did not build the car but I do not see anything wrong with it. If you don't have deep pocket you are guaranteed to lose.
So after 8 months of battling and sending over 20 videos and photos to the dealership to show the issues I got to a point were Honda sent me a letter saying that they were done and the dealer refused that I drop the car off. Yes I am not kidding!
I finally sent the dealership a nasty email telling them that I had contacted all the news channels, my insurance company (do this if you have the high revs), with the you tube link to the high revs and if they didn't fix my car immediately I would sue them. Well, I received a phone call yesterday and they are sending a specialist. Now I am not sure if it will work but we might have some progress and maybe a fix down the road.
PS: Has anyone seen on carcomplaint.com that 2 people got stuck wide open and totaled their car? One got injured. Very scary when your car has over 15 different electronic issue and Honda doesn't give a crap about you!

Thanks to Yannick for taking the time to post the 3 videos and sorry for your frustration. I am a Clarity owner and from my experience, all three videos seem to be normal.
Video 1: In HV going up an incline, I also hear my engine, especially if I move the accelerator up and down rather than try to keep the position steady. Hard to tell from a video if Yannick’s engine noise is “excessive”, but the car will try to maintain charge in HV so the small engine is pulling most of the 4000 lb vehicle weight, and it is also trying to guess your future needs so varying your throttle position does not let the charge algorithm “settle in.” Just today I drove the 1200 feet elevation gain in 3 miles at 55 mph with 25 miles of EV range (Kanan Road in the Santa Monica Mountains from PCH north to the tunnels, a 6.5%er) and could barely hear the engine, but I try to keep the throttle steady.
Video 2: I have to ask if Yannick has 1/4 mile or more of downhill immediately after he leaves his house with a completely full charge. As other posts have noted, a fully charged Clarity will fire up the ICE when (surprisingly little) regenerative braking happens first thing on driving (i.e. a downhill start). In my case, only 2 gentle stops on short declines going no more than 25mph. Then once activated, the ICE will not shut down until it is fully warmed up (noted in owners manual). I have found only two ways to prevent this: Don’t charge completely full. Or coast in neutral down the first incline until I can use up some battery in my first hard acceleration (to 55 mph) out of my neighborhood.
Video 3: I have also noted the engine charging the battery while at rest on the power flow, as shown. But rarely for more than 20-30 seconds with a warm engine, and presumably to maintain battery state of charge while in HV.
In short. I can agree with Yannick that the most annoying thing about the Clarity is the whining sound of the ICE when you have to mash the accelerator, especially with a depleted battery. And when that happens, the generator-like sound, like a CVT, takes some getting used. But I have found the noise to be infrequent, and even less intrusive than my old Camry hybrid on hills (typical CVT whine). The total silence of the Clarity 98% of the time has spoiled me so that ANY engine noise is now unwelcome!

 

[Yannick]

Thanks to Yannick for taking the time to post the 3 videos and sorry for your frustration. I am a Clarity owner and from my experience, all three videos seem to be normal.
Video 1: In HV going up an incline, I also hear my engine, especially if I move the accelerator up and down rather than try to keep the position steady. Hard to tell from a video if Yannick’s engine noise is “excessive”, but the car will try to maintain charge in HV so the small engine is pulling most of the 4000 lb vehicle weight, and it is also trying to guess your future needs so varying your throttle position does not let the charge algorithm “settle in.” Just today I drove the 1200 feet elevation gain in 3 miles at 55 mph with 25 miles of EV range (Kanan Road in the Santa Monica Mountains from PCH north to the tunnels, a 6.5%er) and could barely hear the engine, but I try to keep the throttle steady.
Video 2: I have to ask if Yannick has 1/4 mile or more of downhill immediately after he leaves his house with a completely full charge. As other posts have noted, a fully charged Clarity will fire up the ICE when (surprisingly little) regenerative braking happens first thing on driving (i.e. a downhill start). In my case, only 2 gentle stops on short declines going no more than 25mph. Then once activated, the ICE will not shut down until it is fully warmed up (noted in owners manual). I have found only two ways to prevent this: Don’t charge completely full. Or coast in neutral down the first incline until I can use up some battery in my first hard acceleration (to 55 mph) out of my neighborhood.
Video 3: I have also noted the engine charging the battery while at rest on the power flow, as shown. But rarely for more than 20-30 seconds with a warm engine, and presumably to maintain battery state of charge while in HV.
In short. I can agree with Yannick that the most annoying thing about the Clarity is the whining sound of the ICE when you have to mash the accelerator, especially with a depleted battery. And when that happens, the generator-like sound, like a CVT, takes some getting used. But I have found the noise to be infrequent, and even less intrusive than my old Camry hybrid on hills (typical CVT whine). The total silence of the Clarity 98% of the time has spoiled me so that ANY engine noise is now unwelcome!

Hi Lex,
I learned a lot about the car today when showing the Honda Tech how loud the car revs when angree bees and sluggish power happens.
My video was taken up Kanan, please contact me by email, I would like to speak with you before posting stuff.
[email protected]
Thanks much.