Worldwide recall according to this 11 Oct news item.

[Wildeyed]

They might not know the cause, but I think there is no doubt that these are battery fires. And it seems that most if not all of the fires took place while charging.

Some took place while the cars were AT a charger. That doesn't mean they were charging. That's the difficulty with troubleshooting. There are so many variables and most of them are difficult if not impossible to observe or tease out. Hell, if Hyundai can't do it with ALL the information then what hope do we have?

 

[ericy]

Some took place while the cars were AT a charger.

OK, that may be. So we can say that as a precaution, unplug the car when not charging. What's the downside?

Some of us have hypothesized that the fires are caused by over-charging of an individual cell in the battery - possibly caused by a pack that was out of balance. Hyundai's previous BMS update tightened up the specs so the car would throw faults for an out of balance pack. The update that they are now pushing out in Korea seems to pause charging - they haven't come out and said what the purpose of this is - my own theory is that they pause to allow the BMS to attempt to rebalance the battery pack.

Most of the thoughts about what we should do come directly from Hyundai. I would add to the list checking the pack balance yourself with a smartphone app if you have that ability.

 

[Wildeyed]

Aside from the annoyance of having to go out and unplug the car the potential downside I worry about is the 12 volt battery monitoring. Since the BMS update my car lights up pretty frequently, apparently running the 12 volt top-up routine. When that's happening my charger's ring light goes green so I assume it's pulling power from the cord at that point. If it's unplugged I wonder if my 12 volt would go flat. I drive only once every two weeks since Covid and that seems an opportune time for the 12 volt to croak.

 

[KiwiME]

You need not worry about your 12V battery in that context. Its welfare is not related to the car being plugged in.

 

[nzkiwi68]

The article states that 'extreme operating conditions' leads to 'poor progression' that eventually causes one of the cells to fail. When that cell fail, it can cause a short circuit which can cause an ignition. 'Extreme operating conditions' was not really described in detail. Is it always charging to a high SOC??? Since it is pointed out that the Kona EV has a lower 'safety margin' of capacity, compared to a Tesla or Bolt. Kona has available 62kW of its 64kW, compared to a Tesla that has a 75kW of its 80kW battery. The same for a Bolt which has available 55kW of its 60kW battery. So that's how Korea's Ministry of Land, etc calculated that the Kona EV has only a 3% 'safety margin' buffer.

As for 'poor progression', that is not defined either. Does it mean battery degradation from frequent charge/discharge cycles???

Finally, it is pointed out that the eNiro uses a NMC811 as opposed to a Kona EV NMC622 battery. Meaning that eNiro's battery is composed of 80% Nickel, 10% Cobalt, 10% Mangenese; as compared to Kona's 60% Nickel, 20% Cobalt, 20% Mangenese battery. Cobalt is the more volatile element that will tend to cause fires; but more Cobalt makes for a better battery (Teslas has 80% Cobalt). It does not necessarily mean that the eNiro will be safer; but will tend to be less fire-prone compared a Kona EV if it was to operate under the same 'extreme operating conditions'.

So, it may appear plausible that in order to increase the 'margin of safety' in a Kona EV, they may have to increase the capacity buffer above 3% in the existing battery. That means that you will have a decreased available battery capacity, meaning a slight loss of range. If they will increase the buffer capacity to industry standards like the Tesla or Bolt, then you will probably see that the Kona EV might get a 59kW capacity to the current 62kW. a loss of 3kW of current range.

NCM622 vs NCM811 (Hyundia vs Kia battery chemistry)
I’m certain Kia will be watching this very closely indeed.

NCM811 is used because it’s more energy dense again, but, more prone to thermal runaway and requires multiple sintering passes during production making it more expensive and harder for quality control to produce properly.

With all thing being equal (capacity, battery reserve, charge and discharge rates) NCM811 is less safe than NCM622.

Perhaps Kia with higher density for the same physical size is able to have a larger reserve safety margin thereby making their NCM811 a safer battery?

NCM811 is all about increasing energy density, using less expensive materials (cobalt and manganese) and not about increasing battery safety.

I was very pleased that the Kona is NCM622 and NCM811.

https://roskill.com/news/nickel-sulphate-in-high-nickel-batteries-safety-comes-into-question/

https://www.x-mol.com/paper/1285639650726821888

 

[KiwiME]

As of now Australia has been given notice. They have a FAQ and there are some interesting details about the new charging pattern. This link will result in a 2-page PDF download, I couldn't see how to view it directly.

And, per the usual Aussie practice of trying to upstage us, they allow charging to 90% in the interim, instead of our 80.
This is the letter sent out, copied from KonaForum:

Dear Hyundai Customer,

Hyundai is recalling certain Hyundai Kona Electric vehicles produced between January 31st 2018 and March 2nd 2020 Our records indicate that your Hyundai is affected by the safety recall, which requires a software update of the high voltage lithium-ion battery management system (BMS).

The high-voltage battery system in the subject vehicles might contain electrical deficiencies, such as internal damage to certain cells of the lithium-ion battery and/or faulty battery management system (BMS) control software that could increase the risk of an electrical short circuit after charging the lithium-ion battery. This could increase the risk of vehicle fire and therefore serious injury to occupants, bystanders and property. We recommend the vehicle is parked away from flammable structures, for example not in a garage.

As a precaution it is recommend to only charge the high voltage battery to a maximum level of 90% capacity and then the charge cable to be disconnected (no overnight charging), this is an interim measure and only required until the safety recall has been carried out.

To correct this potential concern we request that you contact an authorised EV Hyundai dealer to arrange a time to have this procedure performed. This work will be carried out free of charge.

A list of Hyundai dealer locations and service department contact details can be found at www.hyundai.com/au/en/find-a-dealer. Alternatively, you can contact Customer Care at 1800 186 306:

• To locate your nearest dealership and book an appointment, select option 3
• For all other enquiries, select option 4

As a result of the software update, the charge time may increase in certain circumstances. Additional information can be downloaded HERE.

Please present this notice to your Hyundai dealer when attending your appointment. Please contact your nearest dealer to confirm the process relating to Good Hygiene for coronavirus (COVID-19). The health and safety of you and Hyundai dealer personnel are the priority.

We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause you and assure you of our best efforts to maintain your driving pleasure and satisfaction with your Hyundai vehicle.

Yours sincerely,
Hyundai Motor Company Australia

And here is the charging info off the FAQ:

... A new battery self-diagnosis logic is applied for both AC & DC charging. The Battery Management System will momentarily stop charging the battery and carry out a battery self-diagnosis – once all systems are checked, charging will automatically recommence.  When the state of charge (SoC) is less than 75%, the battery will stop charging and carry out a battery self-diagnosis at the point of 80% SoC. If no issues are detected, charging will automatically resume (battery self-diagnosis takes approximately 10 minutes).  When the SoC is less than 85%, the battery will stop charging and carry out a selfdiagnosis at the point of 90% SoC. If no issues are detected, charging will automatically resume (self-diagnosis time is approximately 10 minutes)

 

[Genevamech]

So the update will, I suppose, increase charging time buy up to 20 minutes if you're below 75%? One pause at 80%, another at 90%?

I mean, it's better than the alternative, but I wonder if the charge time estimator will take that into account...

 

[cmwade77]

So the update will, I suppose, increase charging time buy up to 20 minutes if you're below 75%? One pause at 80%, another at 90%?

I mean, it's better than the alternative, but I wonder if the charge time estimator will take that into account...

No, I think what they are saying is it will pause at 75% or 90% depending on the SOC when plugged in, so only 10 minutes in either case, but it does mean you are better off not charging above that SOC on stations where pricing is per minute.

 

[Bruce M.]

No, I think what they are saying is it will pause at 75% or 90% depending on the SOC when plugged in, so only 10 minutes in either case, but it does mean you are better off not charging above that SOC on stations where pricing is per minute.

You're probably right, but -- as seems to be a common problem for Hyundai -- their wording is not 100% clear. They really need to do better.

 

[mikeselectricstuff]

I assume it's pulling power from the cord at that point..

No it isn't.

 

[Bruce M.]

No it isn't.

Indeed. My car is plugged in very rarely as I don't drive a lot. It happily charges its 12v whenever it needs to. Not anything to be concerned about.

 

[Anaglypta]

It seems that Hyundai have now changed the "Description of Defect" submitted to the NHTSA - removing the reference to the BMS being at fault.

Does this make me feel any happier (having had service campaign 960 on my car), or does the cynic in me think that this may be an effort to shift liability.

Original:-
Description of the Defect : The high-voltage battery system in the subject vehicles might contain certain electrical deficiencies, such as internal damage to certain cells of the lithium-ion battery and/or faulty battery management system (“BMS”) control software, that could increase the risk of an electrical short circuit after fully charging the Li-ion battery. Hyundai is continuing to actively investigate this condition for identification of a specific root cause.

Revised:-
Description of the Defect : The high-voltage battery system in the subject vehicles may have been produced with internal damage to certain cells of the lithium-ion battery increasing the risk of an electrical short circuit. Hyundai is continuing to actively investigate this condition for identification of a specific root cause.

Documents here.

John.

 

[ericy]

Description of the Defect : The high-voltage battery system in the subject vehicles may have been produced with internal damage to certain cells of the lithium-ion battery increasing the risk of an electrical short circuit. Hyundai is continuing to actively investigate this condition for identification of a specific root cause.

This makes me wonder if they have seen some damaged cells.

I am sure that LG won't be happy with this, and they will no doubt push back.

 

[electriceddy]

It seems that Hyundai have now changed the "Description of Defect" submitted to the NHTSA - removing the reference to the BMS being at fault.

Does this make me feel any happier (having had service campaign 960 on my car), or does the cynic in me think that this may be an effort to shift liability.

Original:-
Description of the Defect : The high-voltage battery system in the subject vehicles might contain certain electrical deficiencies, such as internal damage to certain cells of the lithium-ion battery and/or faulty battery management system (“BMS”) control software, that could increase the risk of an electrical short circuit after fully charging the Li-ion battery. Hyundai is continuing to actively investigate this condition for identification of a specific root cause.

Revised:-
Description of the Defect : The high-voltage battery system in the subject vehicles may have been produced with internal damage to certain cells of the lithium-ion battery increasing the risk of an electrical short circuit. Hyundai is continuing to actively investigate this condition for identification of a specific root cause.

Documents here.

John.

Kind of implies the BMS software update is more or less the best "band aid" to help detect the more prominent issue of possible cell defects at the manufacturing level.
Can hardly wait for LG's response

 

[R P]

I think the main purpose of the BMS software update is to catch and ferret out all possible battery cell defects, no matter what the cause. And to catch them before they can cause another fire. By inspecting a defective cell group that hasn't burned up will also help them identify what the root cause is.

I think they are doing the right thing. Time will tell.

 

[TRSmith]

As of now Australia has been given notice. They have a FAQ and there are some interesting details about the new charging pattern. This link will result in a 2-page PDF download, I couldn't see how to view it directly.

And, per the usual Aussie practice of trying to upstage us, they allow charging to 90% in the interim, instead of our 80.
This is the letter sent out, copied from KonaForum:


And here is the charging info off the FAQ:

So is this 10-minute self-diagnosis the permanent fix? Adding 10 minutes to a charge isn't the end of the world, but it'll get old fast if you're doing a lot of fast charges.
And what about if you're charging at a per-minute rate? Presumably you'd paid for those 10 minutes and get no energy. And since you're draw no electricity, would the charger think you're done and end the session? And/or start billing you for idling?

 

[CharlyM]

It seems that Hyundai have now changed the "Description of Defect" submitted to the NHTSA - removing the reference to the BMS being at fault.

Does this make me feel any happier (having had service campaign 960 on my car), or does the cynic in me think that this may be an effort to shift liability.

Original:-
Description of the Defect : The high-voltage battery system in the subject vehicles might contain certain electrical deficiencies, such as internal damage to certain cells of the lithium-ion battery and/or faulty battery management system (“BMS”) control software, that could increase the risk of an electrical short circuit after fully charging the Li-ion battery. Hyundai is continuing to actively investigate this condition for identification of a specific root cause.

Revised:-
Description of the Defect : The high-voltage battery system in the subject vehicles may have been produced with internal damage to certain cells of the lithium-ion battery increasing the risk of an electrical short circuit. Hyundai is continuing to actively investigate this condition for identification of a specific root cause.

Documents here.

John.

The interesting part is that https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2020/RCLRPT-20V630-7305.PDF still says "Hyundai is also planning on updating the BMS software to allow for detection of abnormalities in the high-voltage battery system while parked", which I don't care about. 10 minutes additional charging time (and money !) at 80% is not acceptable.

https://www.insideevsforum.com/comm...pdate-and-20-reduce-cell-capacity.9707/page-6 also showed the diagnostic happening at 62% battery ?

That basically rules out using EVGo/Chargepoint chargers in California over 80%, that's $3 you're giving to EVGo while not charging your car.

 

[Wildeyed]

Pretty ridiculous that Hyundai Australia is ahead of all other markets in communicating to customers.

 

[KiwiME]

Pretty ridiculous that Hyundai Australia is ahead of all other markets in communicating to customers.

Why? They're a perfectly modern country, and that's a NZer saying that.

... And since you're draw no electricity, would the charger think you're done and end the session? And/or start billing you for idling?

The 10 min will cost us NZ$2.50 extra on most DC units. I don't see any reason why the charge session would terminate as it's not related to the quantity of power being transferred.

 

[Wildeyed]

Why? They're a perfectly modern country, and that's a NZer saying that.


The 10 min will cost us NZ$2.50 extra on most DC units. I don't see any reason why the charge session would terminate as it's not related to the quantity of power being transferred.

Because multiple markets are larger and got the Kona many months before Australia did.