Honda EV committment/future?

[Jimmy Vo]

@turtleturtle , sorry, I apologize. You did not say it. It was NocEdit
I do think for now, PHEV has its place. Since it takes time to build out network charging. But I really doubt in the future it's still relevant.
It's just the whole world support EV. from gov to the states and people. If you are in EV, you have a tailwind. If you are in ICE, you go uphill battle and headwind. I really don't see ICE has a future at all.
it's happeninging faster than we think. Jaguar will be 100% EV by 2025. Only few years from now. Ford Europe will be 100% EV by 2030

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56072019?xtor=AL-72-[partner]-[yahoo.north.america]-[link]-[news]-[bizdev]-[isapi]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-electric-europe-2030-105538484.html

 

[Landshark]

So, like it or not, you have to buy EV if you want a new car

Dang! I didn’t realize there weren’t any more new ICE vehicles available on dealer lots anymore. Missed my chance to stock up on those babies. Now I’ve got to get out there and check out all those EV options.

Oh, and the PHEV is more like a covered call than betting on both black and red. Options, the PHEV offered options. And sorry, that old chestnut of lugging around all that excess weight at the expense of fuel efficiency is pure rubbish. You’re lugging around a huge battery to go 50 miles in a Model Y and I’m lugging around some ICE components to do the same with a 17kWh battery. Both cars are schlepping around excess weight that is unneeded 95% of the time.

 

[Recoil45]

NEw models of anything sell for MSRP (or more)
Teslas always sell at MSRP, because they control the price. Instead of discounting, they just change the MSRP. Someone like GM will set the MSRP (the Bolt, i.e.) and then apply discounts to get the same volume they want/need.

Union labor has a lot to do with discounting prices to keep volume up. You don't keep them working and they force major pain to company. Tesla will eventually be forced to unionize under the new administration.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jpkik96]

All - this is a fascinating discussion and a lot of interesting points and perspectives have been shared - thank you! But since we are all Honda Clarity owners, lessors, or past owners, I remain curious in your views about how Honda is positioned (in the US) relative to competitors to compete in the EV and PHEV space. For 2021 the Clarity is back on dealer lots in NJ and NY which is positive but this is now a four-year-old vehicle so what do you think is Honda's next move?

I still believe current PHEVs can be a great transition vehicle for many buyers - but just imagine the potential of the Clarity with a 25-30kw battery (assuming battery technology improves!) and a modern infotainment center to match the drivetrain. Hopefully, Honda gets back to its R&D roots and is not just relying on GM' to market future EV vehicles....time will tell!

 

[insightman]

All - this is a fascinating discussion and a lot of interesting points and perspectives have been shared - thank you! But since we are all Honda Clarity owners, lessors, or past owners, I remain curious in your views about how Honda is positioned (in the US) relative to competitors to compete in the EV and PHEV space. For 2021 the Clarity is back on dealer lots in NJ and NY which is positive but this is now a four-year-old vehicle so what do you think is Honda's next move?

I still believe current PHEVs can be a great transition vehicle for many buyers - but just imagine the potential of the Clarity with a 25-30kw battery (assuming battery technology improves!) and a modern infotainment center to match the drivetrain. Hopefully, Honda gets back to its R&D roots and is not just relying on GM' to market future EV vehicles....time will tell!

It says volumes that Honda is selling the CR-V PHEV in China but not in the US--they don't believe the US would want that vehicle. It says something that Honda's only BEV is the tiny Honda e--Honda makes more internal combustion engines than any other company so that's what they're good at.

 

[Landshark]

so what do you think is Honda's next move?

I think Honda will continue doing what is profitable, until they are forced to do otherwise. They have the PHEV figured out and BEV’s are simple machines, without all that complicated ICE stuff.

I still believe current PHEVs can be a great transition vehicle for many buyers - but just imagine the potential of the Clarity with a 25-30kw battery

I don’t see a PHEV as a transition vehicle, nor do I see a need to increase the battery capacity in the Clarity to 25-30kWh’s. What benefit would 75-100 miles of EV range provide the average commuter? I recall reading that the average commute in the US is around 24 miles round trip. I typically drive 40-50, and the existing battery is sufficient for that nearly every time.

I’ve driven roughly 80% of the 15.000 miles on the car in EV. The other 20% were on 400-700 mile, single day trips. I have no interest in a BEV that costs 2, 3 or 4 times what the Clarity cost, and then having to deal with charging delays. It just doesn’t fit my traveling style on long trips. I also have no interest in a BEV, just to eliminate the 20% of the miles driven in HV.

Imagine everyone reducing their fossil fuel consumption by 80% and not having to install charging stations across the country and on every street corner. You just need a 120V outlet at home, and at least 16% of homes in the US have those. Maybe more.

 

[Jimmy Vo]

Dang! I didn’t realize there weren’t any more new ICE vehicles available on dealer lots anymore. Missed my chance to stock up on those babies. Now I’ve got to get out there and check out all those EV options.

Don't just copy and paste a small part of my sentence and mislead it, off course for now, there are plenty ICE cars for you to choose. I was talking about the future. Look at the news, can you buy Ford ICE car in Europe in 2030, nope. Can you buy Jaguar ICE car in 2025, nope. Go ahead and stock up your ice cars since you need them. In Europe and California, they will band ICE sales in 2030 and 2035, so my statement "you have to buy an EV if you want a new car" is true.
You keep advocating your PHEV because of your environment, yes, you don't have a charging network, so PHEV is good for you. You keep saying you don't have to deal with charging, we keep telling you that in some parts of the country, like California, you don't have to deal with charging since they are everywhere. You still don't get it, each time you talk about your PHEV, you still say avoiding charging.
You still keep saying PHEV is not a transition vehicle and it has a future, can you tell me the next few years VW, GM, Ford, Benz, BMW how they invest EVs vs PHEV. The numbers are 10 to 1. You point me to an article that VM, GM, Ford, Benz BMW invest big time in PHEV. Point me one article. Only Toyota and Honda still try to hold on to PHEV because they are the leaders, it makes sense for them to advocate PHEV since they are leaders, they know they will win with PHEV, but they know EV is the future. Even Toyota, they have been against EVs, now they have to join and announced 2 or 3 EV models in US this year.
Here is the point about PHEV
1st, people are buying PHEV because they want to drive electric right? 2nd, they choose PHEV because if the network charing is not available they can use gas, right? Make sense, and yes, in this case, PHEV is a good option.
But what if in the future, we can eliminate the 2nd part (charging worry), and the industry is solving that problem now as we speak. They provide you charge stations everywhere, charging only takes 15mins to fill up, on top of that, every house will have level 2 charger since it's part of buying package (GM will have Level 2 installation for you if you buy the bolt). Would you still buy PHEV? I think the majority of people will say NO, they won't buy PHEV.

 

[jpkik96]

I think Honda will continue doing what is profitable until they are forced to do otherwise. They have the PHEV figured out and BEV’s are simple machines, without all that complicated ICE stuff.



I don’t see a PHEV as a transition vehicle, nor do I see a need to increase the battery capacity in the Clarity to 25-30kWhs. What benefit would 75-100 miles of EV range provide the average commuter? I recall reading that the average commute in the US is around 24 miles round trip. I typically drive 40-50, and the existing battery is sufficient for that nearly every time.

I’ve driven roughly 80% of the 15.000 miles on the car in EV. The other 20% were on 400-700 mile, single-day trips. I have no interest in a BEV that costs 2, 3 or 4 times what the Clarity cost, and then having to deal with charging delays. It just doesn’t fit my traveling style on long trips. I also have no interest in a BEV, just to eliminate the 20% of the miles driven in HV.

Imagine everyone reducing their fossil fuel consumption by 80% and not having to install charging stations across the country and on every street corner. You just need a 120V outlet at home, and at least 16% of homes in the US have those. Maybe more.

 

[jpkik96]

Landshark/Jimmy Vo - Thank you both for your review and reply. Landshark - I agree with you that I also have little interest in paying for a BEV or PHEV that costs 2, 3, or 4 times the cost of the Clarity. However, I am making the assumption that as battery technology improves, costs will come down and efficiency will go up, allowing manufacturers to package fewer BUT more powerful batteries in their platforms. My commute (when I had one!) was less the 20 miles round trip but I also frequently take daily trips of 60 - 100 miles, so more range would benefit me. Also, more range would benefit anyone that lives in a colder climate! Jimmy Vo - I also agree with your comments that the current administration and most States are increasingly more supportive of EV's and that BEVs. However, this transition will cost a lot of money - which most States don't have - and will take time, so I still advocate that a PHEV with 60-80 mile real electric range might help bridge the transition. 2035 is a long-time away - until BEV's are affordable to the mass-market, I feel if major manufacturers can leverage their existing ICE technology by merging it with improving BEV technology that would require fewer batteries they should pursue it. Imagine the popularity of a RAV4 Prime or CRV PHEV (China) or Honda Accord PHEV or Toyota Camry PHEV with a 60+ mile real EV range in all conditions priced under $30M for most consumers...

 

[Landshark]

You keep advocating your PHEV because of your environment, yes, you don't have a charging network, so PHEV is good for you. You keep saying you don't have to deal with charging, we keep telling you that in some parts of the country, like California, you don't have to deal with charging since they are everywhere. You still don't get it, each time you talk about your PHEV, you still say avoiding charging.

I have charging available in many places. I actually charged a bit at work yesterday. If you own a BEV, you have to deal with charging. Otherwise you’ll have a dead battery in short order. Do you understand that?

I said previously that I charge the car every day. What are you reading?

 

[turtleturtle]

I have charging available in many places. I actually charged a bit at work yesterday. If you own a BEV, you have to deal with charging. Otherwise you’ll have a dead battery in short order. Do you understand that?

I said previously that I charge the car every day. What are you reading?



Now you’ve demonstrated that you are rude. Answer if you please, but I’ll be ignoring you from here on out as I have no desire to listen to anything you have to say.

The rest of us can continue to have a rational discussion, even when we disagree.

I’m with Landshark on this one. Responses have not been civil or promoted actual discourse. This is a message board for purchasers of the Clarity.

Further, it appears you may work for a BEV manufacturer, which greatly influences the opinions you espouse.

 

[Jimmy Vo]

Ok, guys. I apologize for my rude comments especially to @Landshark
LOL about working for BEV, don't blame you to think about that. But I am not against PHEV, it has its purpose for now. But in the future, maybe not.

 

[Agzand]

Bottom line is that BEVs are not the silver bullet that they are implied to be. The environmental benefit of BEVs is realized only if the car is driven more than 50,000 miles or so. A good PHEV like Clarity or RAV4 Prime will have similar environmental benefits as long as you can charge it overnight. They are also mechanically similar (with a larger battery) to Toyota hybrids which have proven to be bullet proof in the past 20 years, definitely more reliable than a Tesla or other current BEVs or ICE vehicles with complex turbo engines and 10 speed or CVT transmissions.

What future brings to a large degree depends on government policies, but if policies are supportive there is more potential to improve PHEVs than BEVs. BEVs are simple machines with very high efficiency, so it is not possible to make huge improvements in drive trains. The battery chemistry will improve, but that will have more impact on PHEVs than BEVs. The difference between a 300 mile BEV and a 450 mile BEV is not significant. But a 60 mile PHEV is a significant improvement over a 40 mile PHEV.

While in city driving EVs (including PHEVs in EV drive mode) provide superior driving experience, the same cannot be said for highway driving. When on highway I like the experience and freedom provided by a PHEV over a BEV.

There are other areas where PHEVs could improve, for example longer life oils, engines optimized for PHEV, and using navigation data to optimize power usage. So in terms of engineering I think PHEVs are a viable alternative for people who can charge overnight, but for some reason there is resistance from a bunch of people who believe all manufacturers should shut down and leave the market to a single carmaker.

 

[Domenick]

Hey all, friendly moderator here. I edited some of the previous posts to remove some personal mentions and unhelpful sentences.

We're all individuals and have sometimes very different opinions on certain issues, but please let's all make our points respectfully. This extends to sarcasm. While it can be a useful tool in some instances, it can provoke harsh responses as well. At the risk of sounding like my hippie uncle, let's try to find a little love in our hearts for the people we may disagree with.

 

[Landshark]

What future brings to a large degree depends on government policies, but if policies are supportive there is more potential to improve PHEVs than BEVs. BEVs are simple machines with very high efficiency, so it is not possible to make huge improvements in drive trains. The battery chemistry will improve, but that will have more impact on PHEVs than BEVs. The difference between a 300 mile BEV and a 450 mile BEV is not significant. But a 60 mile PHEV is a significant improvement over a 40 mile PHEV.

Thanks. Those are some aspects I hadn’t considered before.

I chose the Clarity, in part, because the 47 mile EV range would allow nearly all daily driving to be accomplished in EV. This has proven to be the case. The only other option was the Volt, which was being discontinued and we didn’t care for it. All other options had 30 miles or less of range.

A coworker who drives a Prius Prime is considering getting a Clarity, which will allow him to make his round trip in EV.

We always seem to want more. Give us 50 miles, we want 75, then 100. Give a BEV 250, then they want 300 or 350. I’ve considered my 40+ mile commutes to be longer than most and the range on the Clarity has been sufficient. Of course there’s always someone who has a 65+ mile commute, and if they prefer to do it in EV, they’ll need more range. You are correct, if a battery with more energy density could fit in the same space as the current battery, it would provide increased range. That would be an improvement and some folks may even be willing to pay a premium for that. Or they might be willing to give up some trunk space for added range.

There are some, almost sneaky, ways that BEV range gets improved. Some small Electric RV’s are being developed/built in Europe. They have increased stated range through a combination of a slightly larger battery and a slightly less powerful motor. The same tactic could be used on PHEV’s as well as passenger car BEV’s if people would become less obsessed with 0-60 times.

 

[ab13]

People who live where the weather is cold or extreme may prefer to have gas available, since cold weather reduces electric vehicle range and power outages prevent charging. Being able to get "free" heat and fill up with portable gas tanks provides more flexibility, especially when you consider conditions of limited power such as what's happening in places with cold snowy weather.

Although this is a hybrid, the idea still applies, you can keep adding gas, but a depleted electric car can't do anything if the power is out.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a35152752/powered-house-ford-f-150-hybrid/

 

[ab13]

Honda's announced a partnership with GM in April 2020 to produce two EV vehicles for Honda/Acura by 2024 and as a loyal Honda supporter - ( currently own a Pilot and Civic and lease a Clarity - Honda now appears to be playing catch-up in the EV market. Appreciate everyone's thoughts on Honda's EV future...

Honda is tied to GM's schedule, but at least they have batteries that can provide 800 V system operation and wireless battery management system, which makes it pretty advanced. Only Porsche has an 800 V system at this time, and I believe no one has such a battery management system. I read that Toyota Prius Prime monitors every single cell, I don't think Tesla monitors but only a few locations in their pack. That's why the wireless system could be very valuable. So the batteries could be as advanced as anyone else or more so by they time they come out.

 

[DucRider]

This is a message board for purchasers of the Clarity.

Didn't realize that non-owners looking for info on the Clarity weren't welcome. Nor that it is a Clarity PHEV only forum and excludes those with the BEV and Fuel Cell versions that have input to offer on those technologies.

 

[Landshark]

This is a message board for purchasers of the Clarity.

Didn't realize that non-owners looking for info on the Clarity weren't welcome. Nor that it is a Clarity PHEV only forum and excludes those with the BEV and Fuel Cell versions that have input to offer on those technologies.

Words matter.

If turtleturtle had said “This message board is exclusively for Clarity PHEV owners” then you might have a valid point.

 

[turtleturtle]

Didn't realize that non-owners looking for info on the Clarity weren't welcome. Nor that it is a Clarity PHEV only forum and excludes those with the BEV and Fuel Cell versions that have input to offer on those technologies.

Eh, could be rephrased. Was trying to deescalate or refocus the conversation.