Going gas

[David Towle]

Not necessarily. It would depend on the EV range per charge.

If EV range is 35 miles, cost per mile at $2.08 will be $.059.

If a gallon of gas costs $2.40 and gives 48mpg, cost per mile will be $.05.

The key is you have to figure out how to drive the car under identical conditions to get a valid comparison. and its not easy. In my 25,000 miles of driving I have never run into a condition where I would get 35 miles EV range or 48 mpg under the same conditions (although maybe these are just example numbers, I don't know). The only way I could see to get those numbers would be highway driving at 80F with the heat set at 100F (probably not possible) or so.
If that is a real comparison I would like to know under what conditions! Thanks.

 

[css28]

The key is you have to figure out how to drive the car under identical conditions to get a valid comparison. and its not easy. In my 25,000 miles of driving I have never run into a condition where I would get 35 miles EV range or 48 mpg under the same conditions (although maybe these are just example numbers, I don't know). The only way I could see to get those numbers would be highway driving at 80F with the heat set at 100F (probably not possible) or so.
If that is a real comparison I would like to know under what conditions! Thanks.

Have you ever gotten close to 47 miles on a charge? What conditions have pulled you below 35 miles?

 

[David Towle]

Have you ever gotten close to 47 miles on a charge? What conditions have pulled you below 35 miles?

My highest actual was 74, and the highest estimate from the car was 82. I think my lowest ever was about 43, but I use EV mainly for around town driving and have never used the electric heat for more than a few minutes when I have forgotten to turn it off. If I'm going further and need heat I switch to HV.

 

[Landshark]

The key is you have to figure out how to drive the car under identical conditions to get a valid comparison. and its not easy. In my 25,000 miles of driving I have never run into a condition where I would get 35 miles EV range or 48 mpg under the same conditions (although maybe these are just example numbers, I don't know). The only way I could see to get those numbers would be highway driving at 80F with the heat set at 100F (probably not possible) or so.
If that is a real comparison I would like to know under what conditions! Thanks.

Ken7, who started this thread, reported that his EV range is 35 miles due to cold weather. I didn’t pick the number out of a hat. It also isn’t breaking news that EV range diminishes in cold temperatures.

Many have reported getting 48mpg or better in HV. I recently got 51mpg.

Going uphill seems to burn about 3 EV miles for every mile travelled. Likewise, a jackrabbit start will burn a mile of range in a hundred yards. A heavy foot could use up the EV range in 25-30 miles, either by zipping around town or going 85 on the freeway.

None of that really matters. Ken7 has determined that using gas is less costly than using electricity to propel his car, based on regional fuel costs and current temperatures.

 

[css28]

My highest actual was 74, and the highest estimate from the car was 82. I think my lowest ever was about 43, but I use EV mainly for around town driving and have never used the electric heat for more than a few minutes when I have forgotten to turn it off. If I'm going further and need heat I switch to HV.

I misunderstood the thrust of your reply then. You were citing worst case electric against best case ICE?

 

[David Towle]

I misunderstood the thrust of your reply then. You were citing worst case electric against best case ICE?

No that's what Landshark was doing, I didn't see how those two numbers could happen under similar driving conditions. In his last reply he compares 35 miles EV in winter conditions to 48 mpg generally. I have never gotten more than 37 mpg in midwinter and that's what the 35 miles EV should be compared to.

 

[Landshark]

Good grief! Is it really that difficult to accept that in certain circumstances, it may be less expensive to operate the vehicle on gas rather than electric?

No one drives the car under identical conditions, even going to the same places day after day. If we tried to compare identical conditions, we’d never be able to make any comparisons. This isn’t a laboratory. Driving in EV in no way compares to driving in HV.

Ken7 is getting 35 miles in EV. Just because someone else has never traveled as little as 35 miles in EV doesn’t make Ken7’s statement inaccurate. Likewise, just because someone was only able to travel 37 miles on a gallon of gas doesn’t mean that everyone gets such poor mileage.

It’s a rather simple concept and equally simple math. Sometimes a bit of overthinking only serves to complicate the issue. I’m done picking fly droppings out of pepper on this one.

 

[David Towle]

Good grief! Is it really that difficult to accept that in certain circumstances, it may be less expensive to operate the vehicle on gas rather than electric?

No one drives the car under identical conditions, even going to the same places day after day. If we tried to compare identical conditions, we’d never be able to make any comparisons. This isn’t a laboratory. Driving in EV in no way compares to driving in HV.

Ken7 is getting 35 miles in EV. Just because someone else has never traveled as little as 35 miles in EV doesn’t make Ken7’s statement inaccurate. Likewise, just because someone was only able to travel 37 miles on a gallon of gas doesn’t mean that everyone gets such poor mileage.

It’s a rather simple concept and equally simple math. Sometimes a bit of overthinking only serves to complicate the issue. I’m done picking fly droppings out of pepper on this one.

Good grief, that's the whole point of these posts to me. I haven't plugged it in in more than a month.

And who said Ken7 was inaccurate?

And who said 37 mpg is poor mileage? Its great mileage in the winter. Just like the 50 I get in the summer is great mileage. And like the Clarity is a great car!

 

[Lowell_Greenberg]

In some ways this chain is indicative of the sad state affairs in US environmental policy. On the one hand the charts that help make it easier to assess relative out of pocket cost savings are helpful. And it is understandable that a consumer faced with an economic choice between cheaper gas or higher electricity costs would chose the former. However, the environmental cost of burning hydrocarbons is now astronomical and represents biocide. And that governments, elected by the people, would permit this cost differential and actually work to lax fuel economy standards- placating the oil and auto lobby- is fundamentally tragic. It is equally tragic that there is even a "serious" debate on the environmental harms caused by electric versus gas vehicles.

 

[David Towle]

That environmental cost is high across the board, with 64% of US electricity generation still from burning hydrocarbons. China is higher at 70%, also with a much higher proportion of high CO2 coal.

Incremental improvement is better than no improvement, and the electricity system is getting better every year, but we are leaving future generations so many problems from so many sources it is truly tragic.

 

[Ken7]

Ken7, who started this thread, reported that his EV range is 35 miles due to cold weather. I didn’t pick the number out of a hat. It also isn’t breaking news that EV range diminishes in cold temperatures.

Many have reported getting 48mpg or better in HV. I recently got 51mpg.

Going uphill seems to burn about 3 EV miles for every mile travelled. Likewise, a jackrabbit start will burn a mile of range in a hundred yards. A heavy foot could use up the EV range in 25-30 miles, either by zipping around town or going 85 on the freeway.

None of that really matters. Ken7 has determined that using gas is less costly than using electricity to propel his car, based on regional fuel costs and current temperatures.

That is correct. Frankly I don't think my cold weather numbers are so odd at all. In fact, I'm sorry to say, 35 EV cold weather miles sounds much more believable than the mid 70s some may report in good weather. There is no way I could achieve that number short of coasting downhill 50% of the time. In NY, you don't/can't do that. So apparently some have roads & conditions you simply don't have in the greater N.Y. area.

My #s are a hell of a lot closer to what Honda claims than mid 70s. It's an unfortunate fact that batteries simply don't output in cold weather what they do in warm weather. You don't have to be a lead foot (and trust me, I'm not) to get numbers in the mid 30s in cold weather. I don't know why anyone would be shocked by this.

 

[David Towle]

That is correct. Frankly I don't think my cold weather numbers are so odd at all. In fact, I'm sorry to say, 35 EV cold weather miles sounds much more believable than the mid 70s some may report in good weather. There is no way I could achieve that number short of coasting downhill 50% of the time. In NY, you don't/can't do that. So apparently some have roads & conditions you simply don't have in the greater N.Y. area.

My #s are a hell of a lot closer to what Honda claims than mid 70s. It's an unfortunate fact that batteries simply don't output in cold weather what they do in warm weather. You don't have to be a lead foot (and trust me, I'm not) to get numbers in the mid 30s in cold weather. I don't know why anyone would be shocked by this.

Hi Ken7 I've been following this good thread closely, and Landshark said someone mentioned your 35 mile EV range was inaccurate, and now you say 35 is odd. I looked back and didn't see anyone saying either of those so was it someone on another thread? I agree 35 should be just about right if you are using heat in the winter (or even lower).

 

[CyberDyneSystems]

I can certainly see going gas when it's more affordable, I mean, duh, yeah, why not?

that said, for some of us, saving $ was not the point. If it was, I would have kept my 15 tear old pickup truck!!!

And then there are those of us for whom (having made the investment up front) electricity is now $0.00 per kwh.
My own Clarity is nearly 100% solar powered. Every time I burn gas I cringe!

One of the things I love about the Clarity, and there are many, is that it can be so many different things to so many people. I can drive it Eco-concious Prius mode feathering the accelerator and coasting and drafting, and get 60 battery miles, or I can jam on it and it feels darn sporty! It's ALL GOOD!

 

[Ken7]

Hi Ken7 I've been following this good thread closely, and Landshark said someone mentioned your 35 mile EV range was inaccurate, and now you say 35 is odd. I looked back and didn't see anyone saying either of those so was it someone on another thread? I agree 35 should be just about right if you are using heat in the winter (or even lower).

Dave, maybe I didn’t clarify what I meant. I don’t think 35 is odd at all in the cold weather and that is what I’m seeing. For the kind of driving we do here in NY in cold weather, it’s expected IMO. What I’ve always found odd is those reporting mileage of 70s or more, regardless of temperatures. I could treat the go pedal as if there was an egg between my foot and the pedal and I couldn’t achieve anything close to that in my area.

 

[David Towle]

Dave, maybe I didn’t clarify what I meant. I don’t think 35 is odd at all in the cold weather and that is what I’m seeing. For the kind of driving we do here in NY in cold weather, it’s expected IMO. What I’ve always found odd is those reporting mileage of 70s or more, regardless of temperatures. I could treat the go pedal as if there was an egg between my foot and the pedal and I couldn’t achieve anything close to that in my area.

Yes I think its due to the area, are you in/near NYC or upstate?. I have gotten in the seventies a couple times under perfect conditions, it requires:
- Uncrowded area, I can go miles without a stop or slowdown
- local only driving at 25-35 mph top,
- 70-80 degrees,
- no AC or heat,
- using almost no brakes just regen.

When highway or city driving is part of it I don't think I ever got over 45 even in summer.

 

[CyberDyneSystems]

We just got our first frosts since I bought mine in June,. and no question, I watched it go from 60 plus, (back-roads, no highway) 50's in the summer, down to high 40's for the fall, and now mid 30's. Cooler temp impact can not be ignored. Like David, the only times I get waaay above the standard 48 is summer on back-roads, or conversely on my commute with 2/3rds highway driving IF, and only IF I am able to draft on a truck the whole way Doesn't happen often. But I can't stress enough how much mileage one can save from drafting off an 18 wheeler tanker

 

[Ken7]

Yes I think its due to the area, are you in/near NYC or upstate?. I have gotten in the seventies a couple times under perfect conditions, it requires:
- Uncrowded area, I can go miles without a stop or slowdown
- local only driving at 25-35 mph top,
- 70-80 degrees,
- no AC or heat,
- using almost no brakes just regen.

When highway or city driving is part of it I don't think I ever got over 45 even in summer.

Dave, I’m on Long Island and the first two elements of your criteria are unattainable in my area. Hence my #s, low to mid 50s in the warm weather and mid 30s in the cold.

 

[Ken7]

We just got our first frosts since I bought mine in June,. and no question, I watched it go from 60 plus, (back-roads, no highway) 50's in the summer, down to high 40's for the fall, and now mid 30's. Cooler temp impact can not be ignored. Like David, the only times I get waaay above the standard 48 is summer on back-roads, or conversely on my commute with 2/3rds highway driving IF, and only IF I am able to draft on a truck the whole way Doesn't happen often. But I can't stress enough how much mileage one can save from drafting off an 18 wheeler tanker

Here on LI, you don’t want to get behind most trucks unless you’d like your hood and front bumper sand blasted or pelted by small rocks that are hungry for your car’s paint.

I’ll eat the lost EV miles and do my best to retain the car’s appearance.

 

[David Towle]

Here on LI, you don’t want to get behind most trucks unless you’d like your hood and front bumper sand blasted or pelted by small rocks that are hungry for your car’s paint.

I’ll eat the lost EV miles and do my best to retain the car’s appearance.

Not to mention the risk of a truck tire blowout or something falling off the truck etc. etc.

 

[dnb]

Just some numbers from my recent road trip through the mountains in northern CA. Drove ~150 miles over steep mountains in HV mode, started with ~35 miles EV and "220" gas, that turned into having to put in ~5 gal after 150 miles and being roughly half battery, so under 30 MPG HV mode. I was using some climate control the whole time (auto ~68-70). Car is very loud when going up hills in HV mode but destroys EV miles as well.

Overall very happy with the car but its not that friendly over mountains and 3000'+ climbs.