Clarity EV charge has dropped

[KentuckyKen]

The more important issue is battery degradation, which directly affects range. Does anyone know a good way to determine that without taking it back to the dealer? I mostly do around town driving, charging to 80% after each run to minimize depth of discharge which is one of the factors that affect battery degradation. After 1.7 years of ownership and about 12,000 EV only miles (the rest being HV), one of my regular 14 mile loops still only use 17% under optimal conditions (75 degrees outside with no A/C turned on). At 70 degrees I use 18%, or more at all other temps (varying due to the extent of A/C or heating). That hasn't changed since I bought the car so I'm not seeing any battery degradation. Of course, the BMU could be fooling me by decreasing the buffers in order to maintain the range. That would be really bad because that would then accelerate battery degradation if Honda did that. I still get 8%/per hour during charging using the 120v charger, the same as when the car was new so hopefully all is well.

The only way I know is to get the dealer to hook it up to their i-HDS and run that Battery Capacity Signal and compare that to the nominal 55 Ah when new. @AnthonyW may be able to pull that with the PIDs he is working with ScanGauge.
I applaud your efforts to reduce the depth of discharge, but suggest you periodically do a full charge (at 1x per month) since the common assumption is that the BMS performs cell balancing at the end of a full charge. We are not 100% sure on that, but it is logical and jibes with Honda’s recommendation to fully charge each time prior to driving.

My ChargePoint EVSE doesn’t have the capability to charge to a given %SOC and I’m too lazy to try calculating and setting the length of charging every time. So all I do is skip charging if I have enough SOC for the next day’s driving and I set the timer to charge early in the morning so the battery doesn’t sit as long fully charged. And I think garaging helps reduce temperature extremes. I also try to avoid extreme or rapid discharge of the battery by avoiding extreme acceleration and using preconditioning in the winter. Edited: I also reduce depth of discharge by rarely going below 20-30% allowable SOC (in addition to the buffer) since almost all my driving is local and under 40 miles/day.

As I understand it, temperature extremes, rapid discharge, over charging, time spent at 100% charge, and complete discharge are the factors that affect Li-ion battery health. {Edited: and of course there is a finite # of charge cycles} (Have I left any out?) Fortunately, our BMS has buffers at top and bottom of the SOC and we have good liquid cooling. So the question is really do we gain anything significant by “babying” the battery?

Let’s all meet back in 8 years and see if any of this “being kind to your battery” made an appreciable difference. Of course by then it will be too late. So I’m resigned to being as nice to my battery as I can without obsessing about it or inconveniencing myself.

 

[2002]

stop worrying and enjoy the car

I actually like and appreciate the comments from those who are thinking about battery degradation and battery life (related but not identical subjects). Personally I have a different goal, at least currently, which is to use as much electricity vs. gas as I can, which means charging to full and making sure that I arrive home with 0 EV range unless that's not possible. But I am certainly interested in the topics of battery degradation and battery life. The problem right now for me is lack of quantification, i.e. how much of a difference in degradation and battery life will taking certain measures make, if I had that in quantified form I could make a decision if I think it's worth the tradeoff. Some prefer to err on the side of caution if quantification data is not available. That is fine and unless I can provide data to prove that isn't necessary (which I can't) then I cannot say they are making the wrong choice, just that it's different than my choice.

 

[PHEV Newbie]

The only way I know is to get the dealer to hook it up to their i-HDS and run that Battery Capacity Signal and compare that to the nominal 55 Ah when new. @AnthonyW may be able to pull that with the PIDs he is working with ScanGauge.
I applaud your efforts to reduce the depth of discharge, but suggest you periodically do a full charge (at 1x per month) since the common assumption is that the BMS performs cell balancing at the end of a full charge. We are not 100% sure on that, but it is logical and jibes with Honda’s recommendation to fully charge each time prior to driving.

My ChargePoint EVSE doesn’t have the capability to charge to a given %SOC and I’m too lazy to try calculating and setting the length of charging every time. So all I do is skip charging if I have enough SOC for the next day’s driving and I set the timer to charge early in the morning so the battery doesn’t sit as long fully charged. And I think garaging helps reduce temperature extremes. I also try to avoid extreme or rapid discharge of the battery by avoiding extreme acceleration and using preconditioning in the winter.

As I understand it, temperature extremes, rapid discharge, over charging, time spent at 100% charge, and complete discharge are the factors that affect Li-ion battery health. (Have I left any out?) Fortunately, our BMS has buffers at top and bottom of the SOC and we have good liquid cooling. So the question is really do we gain anything significant by “babying” the battery?

Let’s all meet back in 8 years and see if any of this “being kind to your battery” made an appreciable difference. Of course by then it will be too late. So I’m resigned to being as nice to my battery as I can without obsessing about it or inconveniencing myself.

Thanks for your comments and advice. I do charge to 100% every month or so (usually because that's how often I forget to stop the charge!) for cell balancing. I've noticed that the last 8% takes more than an hour to complete so that's consistent with it doing that. With regard to the babying the battery, we used to charge to 100% and then recharge when it ran out until I did some reading about Li ion batteries. Because we run multiple short errands a day, we realized that we rarely need a 100% charge and could charge in between errands. Thus, with our lifestyle, we could easily baby the battery without any inconvenience. Yes, it'll be interesting to see how this impacts battery life in a few years. For now, it looks like our battery is in excellent shape. Don't know if it's because of our babying but it does not seem to hurt so we'll keep it up.

 

[Evfred]

Not a huge data point but purchased a ‘19 in Feb (so likely all updates were already applied). Personal commute results in going down to 3 bars everyday. Has consistently been at 49 mi range (actual and GOM) since warmer weather started. Commute is about 70% at 70mph. Econ mode only. No range difference noted between setting AC to lowest and changing fan speed vs setting AC on auto.

 

[ninja]

I bought my Clarity on July 4th. I can get about 60 miles with EV mode. after 4300 miles, I can only get less than 50 miles for EV.

 

[Rajiv Vaidyanathan]

I bought my Clarity on July 4th. I can get about 60 miles with EV mode. after 4300 miles, I can only get less than 50 miles for EV.

Yep. After enjoying 50+ since late spring, my EV range is now in the high 20s. A full charge now reports only about 32 miles and my "actual" miles on EV is only about 27. I know it will be dropping even further soon. Since I've now had my Clarity for two years, I am no longer concerned about this dramatic mileage drop and know it will rebound in about 6 months (I'm in Duluth, Minnesota).

 

[victor_2019]

The winter range drop is substantial.

In summer I was getting up to 80 km, now I'm at 45-50.

I don't think keeping your battery below 100% makes sense on a PHEV, especially in winter. A few days ago it was -7c and the car was telling me I should plug it in to keep the battery warm.

You can't say the same time keep the car plugged in to condition the battery, and not have it charge to 100%

 

[Noni]

I am in Connecticut. I boutght Clarity on Match 1st 2019 and during the first winter days it was charging upto 45-50. Then spring and some summer it was charging upto 55-60. Now all of a sudden temps got to below freezing and its only charging 40-42. And when the charge ends and I change it to HV it makes loud noise and shows almost no power to drag. I have to almost switch to Sport mode to go forward. Is that a problem. Its only 8 months old. Should I talk to Honda dealer or Honda Customer service.

 

[Evfred]

@Noni your range seems normal but the lack of power definitely is not. Take it in!

FWIW I’ve lost about 25% range with the colder temps (40s). This is totally normal and is basically the same as the loss I’ve seen in winter on our model X for the past 2 years.

 

[Dan Albrich]

I am in Connecticut. I boutght Clarity on Match 1st 2019 and during the first winter days it was charging upto 45-50. Then spring and some summer it was charging upto 55-60. Now all of a sudden temps got to below freezing and its only charging 40-42. And when the charge ends and I change it to HV it makes loud noise and shows almost no power to drag. I have to almost switch to Sport mode to go forward. Is that a problem. Its only 8 months old. Should I talk to Honda dealer or Honda Customer service.

The part about range drop sounds 100% normal to me and nothing to even remotely worry about. I mean it's too bad we lose range in winter but that part is a given. My EV range goes to 25 miles (currently in the low 30's), so you're living the high life at 40-42 estimated EV.

Loud noise: This by itself is not a cause for concern. Our car is designed to support high RPMs. Also, keep enough EV range and press HV to use gas before you go below 10 estimated EV miles. i.e. when my EV estimate hits 10, I just press HV and burn gas. In my case it keeps the car relatively quiet and enjoyable to drive.

Losing power (accelerator peddle not firmly used): So first off, you need to determine if the unpleasant sounds you hear are causing you to reduce pressure on the accelerator. In other words, if you press on the accelerator firmly ignoring any sounds whatsoever, does the car have good power? If so, you likely just need to follow the loud noise advice above. My car gets loud sometimes, I find the radio helps me ignore it. Literally just press on...

If it's the case that you really are losing power, even with accelerator depressed firmly, that is scary bad news. A handful of Clarity owners have reported such, and this is definitely not normal. My Clarity has in the time I've owned it occassionally been crazy-loud to the point where passengers ask me if my car is ok?, but it has *never* lost power. Even when I used to have the "angry bees" problem, i just turned up the radio and drove through the high RPM sounds, and my car still had plenty of 'go.'

So I think next time this happens pay attention to if you are really losing power or are responding to loud bad sounds by reducing pressure on the gas peddle. Once you know that answer, you are either in a 'don't worry at all' situation, or 'you really need to address this' situation.

So long-short(er): If you are sure you are losing power, even with accelerator pushed down, then you need to get this problem addressed; it's serious and not normal.
The only qualification is that one must ignore loud RPM sounds on this car under some circumstances, and I presume some folks feel the need to reduce accelerator peddle pressure when the loud sounds start. So just be clear which case you're in.

 

[228ra]

I’m most disappointed with how the HV mode MPG drops when the temps decrease. Was in the low 30s on a recent 300 mile trip. Engine was racing on a full charge. Does not happen to me in the summer.

 

[Dan Albrich]

Yes, I agree. My car definitely gets louder in the winter time. Using more power, and the engine runs more and more aggressively to try and keep up. It's sometimes odd feeling to have the engine going fairly hard without touching the gas peddle. I'm guessing the Honda engineers were aware of that -- I mean running engine when stopped, so it doesn't happen as much as I would assume it would.

Maybe just me, but I've gotten so used to the whisper quiet all EV mode, that I think I notice the engine a lot more. My other 'car' is an older V8 pickup. I drive it occassionally and I am reminded what loud really is.

If you get crazy loud sounds like running full-bore in 1st gear, you might be seeing 'angry bees.' My bees were quieted by rebooting the car. i.e. remove the negative 12v terminal, wait a few seconds, then replace. The car will give scary looking alarms, but drive it 10 miles or so and they go away.

-Dan

PS: Credit angry bee fix in my case to KentuckyKen in these forums.

 

[BeMurda]

It seems like range drop is less with the Canadian version because of the battery heater. Which makes sense

 

[Noni]

The part about range drop sounds 100% normal to me and nothing to even remotely worry about. I mean it's too bad we lose range in winter but that part is a given. My EV range goes to 25 miles (currently in the low 30's), so you're living the high life at 40-42 estimated EV.

Loud noise: This by itself is not a cause for concern. Our car is designed to support high RPMs. Also, keep enough EV range and press HV to use gas before you go below 10 estimated EV miles. i.e. when my EV estimate hits 10, I just press HV and burn gas. In my case it keeps the car relatively quiet and enjoyable to drive.

Losing power (accelerator peddle not firmly used): So first off, you need to determine if the unpleasant sounds you hear are causing you to reduce pressure on the accelerator. In other words, if you press on the accelerator firmly ignoring any sounds whatsoever, does the car have good power? If so, you likely just need to follow the loud noise advice above. My car gets loud sometimes, I find the radio helps me ignore it. Literally just press on...

If it's the case that you really are losing power, even with accelerator depressed firmly, that is scary bad news. A handful of Clarity owners have reported such, and this is definitely not normal. My Clarity has in the time I've owned it occassionally been crazy-loud to the point where passengers ask me if my car is ok?, but it has *never* lost power. Even when I used to have the "angry bees" problem, i just turned up the radio and drove through the high RPM sounds, and my car still had plenty of 'go.'

So I think next time this happens pay attention to if you are really losing power or are responding to loud bad sounds by reducing pressure on the gas peddle. Once you know that answer, you are either in a 'don't worry at all' situation, or 'you really need to address this' situation.

So long-short(er): If you are sure you are losing power, even with accelerator pushed down, then you need to get this problem addressed; it's serious and not normal.
The only qualification is that one must ignore loud RPM sounds on this car under some circumstances, and I presume some folks feel the need to reduce accelerator peddle pressure when the loud sounds start. So just be clear which case you're in.

Thanks for the detailed reply.
So I took the car to the dealer I bought this from. He is a small country side type of shop in an older building that does not give me much confidence for new technology cars. May be next time I will go to my city dealer shop. Just a thought.

Yes the tech and the Service rep both said drop of charge is normal in winter months as low as 30 for EV. But still its somewhat hard to digest as in Feb when I bought it used to Charge upto 48-50 in 20s or even 10s temps. But may it was too new thats why. Now a days its charging upto 36 only with a fast charger that used to charge upto 55-60 in Summer in just 2 hours.
Service rep said the car has a heater and that uses some charge to keep battery warm. If I run heating in the car that will affect the mileage. And this a Japan made car so does that mean no heater there like BeMurda above just said. No clue.
It seemed to me that service rep and technician are about same level of knowledge as us. Like you said leave 10 miles and hit HV I said same thing to Technician and he was like "Yeah that sounds like a good idea". He had not much input from his side.

So I will test out the "loosing power" part and hope that is not the case. Because if it is that then its going to be a long battle.
I still want to understand the routine. Please correct me where needed.
Start the car in the morning and see 35-40ish on EV. Drive on EV until it says 10 or 12 and then switch to HV.
Question: when do you really use HV Charge mode.
Sport mode I use occasionally if a small patch of up the hill comes and its becoming caterpillar behind me
Thanks again to all of you for sharing the knowledge.

 

[insightman]

In HV, the Clarity PHEV burns gas in an attempt to keep your battery's State of Charge (SOC) constant. HV Charge burns more gas to increase the SOC. You'd use HV Charge if your SOC is low and you want to have more battery power available for a task, such as climbing a mountain. The Chevy Volt has a "Mountain Mode" that works in somewhat the same way.

As I've often warned others, SPORT Mode leads to smoking and drinking. If Honda really wanted you to use NORMAL Mode, they would have given it a button. ECON Mode--that's where it's at. It's the only mode where the accelerator-pedal click has any meaning. The Clarity will accelerate in ECON Mode as quickly as in SPORT Mode, but you have to press the pedal further down.

 

[KentuckyKen]

If Honda really wanted you to use NORMAL Mode, they would have given it a button. ECON Mode--that's where it's at. It's the only mode where the accelerator-pedal click has any meaning. The Clarity will accelerate in ECON Mode as quickly as in SPORT Mode, but you have to press the pedal further down.

Truer words have never been spoken!!

 

[Dan Albrich]

Thanks for the detailed reply....
Question: when do you really use HV Charge mode.
Sport mode I use occasionally if a small patch of up the hill comes and its becoming caterpillar behind me
Thanks again to all of you for sharing the knowledge.

It's easy to forget to press HV at 10 miles estimated EV range. Should this occur, and EV range = 0, then I might press and hold HV button to do charge mode if I'm a ways from home where I charge. If I'm close to home, I just drive a bit with EV=0 (more loud, less pleasant) until I get home and then plugin. If I'm far from home HV charge. Folks report no less than 30MPG even using HV charge which is still better MPG than my last car so just not a big deal. Some even refute any range loss with HV charge mode. My own experience has been that my MPG takes a hit, but I think 30Mpg is real (and it's not worse than that for sure).

I love sport mode. Use it a bunch. I used to be shy about it. Not anymore But seriously, one can drive in sport mode, and use a soft touch on the accelerator and not kick on the gas engine if one is careful. As you please though.

Finally, electric cars really use a lot of power heating the cabin. Folks in these forums taught me (correctly) that if one can use the pre-heat setting (works best with level 2 charger), to do that before heading out. Also, the seat heaters cost very little compared to cabin heat. In the winter, step 1 for me is turn on seat heater. Even if I need some cabin heat too, I use less (costly) cabin heat with seat heater on.

It's a very nice and comfortable car. I've decided not to go crazy and drive around dressed like an eskimo-- although that would improve my EV range.

-Dan

PS: Almost everything I know I learned from other more knowledgeable folks on this forum. Lots of great folks here: KentuckyKen, Insightman, Craze1cars, jdonalds, MNSteve, sandroad, fotomoto, to name a few. Definitely missing a bunch of excellent folks -- too many to mention.

 

[ozy]

I realize it's an old thread but was wondering about this myself. I live in So. Cal and in mid April it is in the high 60's. The EV range each morning for the past week says 33-35 miles. And this is exactly what I get before it switches to motor. I used to get 47 miles from what I remember. Not sure if this is normal or if there is some issue.

 

[ClarityBill]

The big hit for EV range is the climate control system. What temperature do you have set for the cabin? Are you using outside air, or recirculated air?

Is the car using the heater to warm up the cabin?

 

[StickWare]

Mine has been dropping. Look. 32 miles now. It’s been about 24 all winter.
It’s 38⁰ now. But last week when it was 70, it wasn’t much better.