Charge Strategy for Max Battery Life

I am convinced there is 'magic in the paddles', or maybe less magic in the pedal.

Ken's description / advice on downhill braking seems to confirm my suspicion that even light pedal will start to engage the friction brakes... He is able to avoid ICE start by using a little bit of friction braking.

Seems to me that paddles will have no friction braking, but pedal movement is hydraulically tied to the friction brakes.
 
ClarityBill said:
I am convinced there is 'magic in the paddles', or maybe less magic in the pedal.

Ken's description / advice on downhill braking seems to confirm my suspicion that even light pedal will start to engage the friction brakes... He is able to avoid ICE start by using a little bit of friction braking.

Seems to me that paddles will have no friction braking, but pedal movement is hydraulically tied to the friction brakes.
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While I agree with both halves of your last sentence, I don't think that it dips into the friction brakes until it "has to". In other words, my theory is that if you use the paddles to get, say, three chevrons of regen ... and use the brake pedal to get the same amount of braking action, that the amount of regen pumped into the battery would be identical. Problem is, we cannot measure the amount of pedal pressure needed to achieve the same braking as the displayed three chevrons, and we don't know for sure that at this point the pedal scenario isn't applying the friction brakes. So, like so many aspects of the car, we just cannot know for sure.
 
Since they disabled the HL app on Android 5.1 and so I am unable to (easily) micromanage the charge schedule to stop just shy of 100%, my only solution to prevent regen from starting the engine is to shift into neutral before applying the brakes. It is unfortunate that Honda was not able to design the system to completely disengage regenerative braking and rely strictly on friction braking when the battery SOC was near 100%.
 
I tried driving for the last week using either all pedal and no paddle, or as much paddle as possible with pedal only at last 5 mph and sometimes a little for slowing like on off ramps.
I did it each way for the whole day (had to put up a post it note to remember and had several false starts so it really took 2 weeks).

I always track kWh and estimated EV range and miles and could not tell a meaningful difference (even trying to take into account variables).
So I believe that although we can’t prove it, there is either no or no meaningful difference in the amount of regen a achievable between pedal and paddle braking.
I am open to there perhaps being a small difference that a longer test with larger sample size might reveal. But for me it’s most likely not enough to really matter. So I say pedal or paddle to your heart’s content with a clean conscious since you don’t have to worry about it under normal braking.

The biggest improvement in regen and range will be made by steady driving and anticipating the upcoming stops so you aren’t having to do hard braking. The old saying about driving like there is an egg between your foot and the accelerator and brake is much more important than paddle vs pedal.

Bottom line, just drive it however you like and it will beat any gasmobile out there. It will however reward the less aggressive driver with extra range and economy without having to hyper mile.
 
This thread is interesting and there are many excellent posts. However, in many cases assumptions are made, that in lieu of facts, make drawing reliable conclusions difficult.

This is what I have concluded: Parasitic battery reactions resulting from hight heat and faulty cooling can reduce battery life. However, the driving conditions under which these reactions are induced are unclear. Perhaps reducing or eliminating full or partial charging under very high temps, more restrained driving and/or using trickle charging under these circumstances would help. Or perhaps the car already has sufficient cooling and upper reserve to make this unnecessary- unless the temps reach very high extremes. Of course, a faulty cooling system is a sure bet for premature failure.

Full daily complete discharge cycles will probably shorten battery life over the car's lifetime- assuming the car would even allow 100% discharge. Perhaps 100% charging would also have a negative long term effect-again assuming the car even allows this.

I think reducing observed upper charge levels to no more than 80 or even 90 percent (given we don't know if the car prevents 100% charge anyway) is not optimal for maximizing fuel economy and reducing CO2 emissions. Being cognizant of the potential for adverse heat related issues may be helpful. Avoiding full (or almost full) discharge should be beneficial for longer battery life. And above all insuring the cooling system is working as intended- are all helpful.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
Isn't this thread in the wrong direction?
Don't we want to abuse our batteries so they become eligible for replacement before the warranty is up, then the SECOND battery we treat with kid gloves?
What do our learned experts think is the best strategy to do this?
(This is about half in jest, maybe it is the best thing to do maybe not.)
 
David Towle said:
Isn't this thread in the wrong direction?
Don't we want to abuse our batteries so they become eligible for replacement before the warranty is up, then the SECOND battery we treat with kid gloves?
What do our learned experts think is the best strategy to do this?
(This is about half in jest, maybe it is the best thing to do maybe not.)
Click to expand...

You'll find out that Honda engineered it just well enough to last the eight years, even under abuse, and then you'll have a 35 Ah battery at year nine.
 
Steven B said:
Since they disabled the HL app on Android 5.1 and so I am unable to (easily) micromanage the charge schedule to stop just shy of 100%, my only solution to prevent regen from starting the engine is to shift into neutral before applying the brakes. It is unfortunate that Honda was not able to design the system to completely disengage regenerative braking and rely strictly on friction braking when the battery SOC was near 100%.
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This is the worst part about the car aside from the infotainment system. It wouldn’t be so bad if you could customize the max charge level easily but for now we’re stuck with guessing the time it takes to get to the charge you want.
 
Steven B said:
You'll find out that Honda engineered it just well enough to last the eight years, even under abuse, and then you'll have a 35 Ah battery at year nine.
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Agreed. Even with determination, it would be hard to wear out the battery that fast. If you lived in AZ or AK it might work otherwise just enjoy the car.
 
PHEV Newbie said:
Because I run a lot of errands and have time to charge in between, I keep my battery between 50-80%. On my OEM 120v charger, it's very consistent that I get 8% charge per hour so I just set a timer and then shut off the charge from my Honda App. I charge to full once or twice a month for cell balancing. For battery longevity, Tesla recommends that you charge their cars to 80% maximum for every day use and then charge to full at least once every 3 months for cell balancing.
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Thanks for the info on balancing! Now if they would only let us pick a percentage instead of the whole math, timer, app process.
 
David Towle said:
Isn't this thread in the wrong direction?
Don't we want to abuse our batteries so they become eligible for replacement before the warranty is up, then the SECOND battery we treat with kid gloves?
What do our learned experts think is the best strategy to do this?
(This is about half in jest, maybe it is the best thing to do maybe not.)
Click to expand...

I've said the same thing on other forums. One big promoter of not using the battery as much as possible lost his car due to a wreck (he was OK). Oh the irony.

Or look at it this way: not using the battery now vs. losing range/capacity early is the same thing: more gas consumption. I'd rather use as much battery while under warranty as possible. Why risk pampering/not using it under warranty yet still have the possibility of it crapping out or major loss of capacity afterwards? It WILL happen; chemistry/physics and all that.

Finally, back in the old days..... :rolleyes: I would keep cars for 10 years minimum but back then advancements were slow and tech didn't change much. I don't recall anyone saying they were trading in early because fuel injection was introduced. LOL In fact, most folks were afraid of that new tech. Anyway, my point is I can't wait to see what it around the next bend or two with future tech in BEV's so I know I won't be keeping the Clarity for 10-15-20 years. My next car or the one after that which will probably be my last :( will be full self-driving or as close to Level 5 as I can comfortable afford or we won't own cars by then. FWIW & YMMV
 
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fotomoto said:
I've said the same thing on other forums. One big promoter of not using the battery as much as possible lost his car due to a wreck (he was OK). Oh the irony.

Or look at it this way: not using the battery now vs. losing range/capacity early is the same thing: more gas consumption. I'd rather use as much battery while under warranty as possible. Why risk pampering/not using it under warranty yet still have the possibility of it crapping out or major loss of capacity afterwards? It WILL happen; chemistry/physics and all that.

Finally, back in the old days..... :rolleyes: I would keep cars for 10 years minimum but back then advancements were slow and tech didn't change much. I don't recall anyone saying they were trading in early because fuel injection was introduced. LOL In fact, most folks were afraid of that new tech. Anyway, my point is I can't wait to see what it around the next bend or two with future tech in BEV's so I know I won't be keeping the Clarity for 10-15-20 years. My next car or the one after that which will probably be my last :( will be full self-driving or as close to Level 5 as I can comfortable afford. FWIW & YMMV
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I guess it’s just a personal belief that the best way to conserve is to make things last. The whole cash for clunkers thing a few years ago made me nauseous. It’s hard to argue with the fact that newer better things will be around in 5-10 years.
 
HagerHedgie said:
I guess it’s just a personal belief that the best way to conserve is to make things last.
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Recycle. Most of the "bad" Prius batteries are dismantled and the good modules go into refurb batteries or to individuals who do the own repairs like I did.

Nissan is using old LEAF batteries for power supply packs hooked to the grid as buffers or for off-grid uses, solar, etc.
 
fotomoto said:
Recycle. Most of the "bad" Prius batteries are dismantled and the good modules go into refurb batteries or to individuals who do the own repairs like I did.

Nissan is using old LEAF batteries for power supply packs hooked to the grid as buffers or for off-grid uses, solar, etc.
Click to expand...
IMO Recycling still isn’t a s efficient as getting the most out of the first use of a product. Either way I’m probably over thinking it and I should just drive the thing like a rental car. That’s how I’ve treated my Prius and it’s been good to me for the last 6 years.
 
Steven B said:
Since they disabled the HL app on Android 5.1 and so I am unable to (easily) micromanage the charge schedule to stop just shy of 100%, my only solution to prevent regen from starting the engine is to shift into neutral before applying the brakes. It is unfortunate that Honda was not able to design the system to completely disengage regenerative braking and rely strictly on friction braking when the battery SOC was near 100%.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tip about neutral. My ice turns on within the first 5 miles about half the time unless I’m in max “driving miss daisy” mode. Even on relatively flat ground.
I’ve tried avoiding paddles, which helps a little but not much.
 
Viking79 said:
That SAE paper probably clues into why the engine runs so much in extreme cold, as it is heating the battery with engine coolant as I was guessing. If car is parked in attached garage it takes very cold days of around 0F or less ambient to start the engine. Looking at that paper the trigger is 32 F battery temp which triggers it, which is about right for my garage temperature (garage is maybe 25 F on those cold days, but battery is insulated and takes time to drop after charging, etc).

The paper also shows the worst charging efficiency at 88% for 240V (assuming all energy lost is in the form of heat, maybe that isn't a valid assumption for the battery), which is better than my pessimistic self gives it (I usually say 80%). It shows max heat rejection as 860 W for Battery, DC-DC, and Charger. It also shows most of the losses in the charger, I figured it would be the battery.

The Clarity only is 311 V Nominal (168 cells in 84s2p format, so this puts it at a pack size of 12.4 kWh usable, which is more inline with what I expected if it is 20 Ah for each cell usable, of 27.3 Ah rated, which would be ~17 kWh at 311 V).

I love all these technical papers you are dragging up specific for the Clarity, keep up the great work :)
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Is the battery cooling system really tied into the ice heater core? I thought only the Canadian clarity had a batt heater. If this is true I would use hv mode much sooner in winter conditions as most days I’m driving 80 or more miles
 
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