2002
Well-Known Member
Might be kind of nice though, if your previous theory is correct that it rebalances only when charging to 100%. If you normally only charge to 80% it would help you keep an eye on it.
Battery Capacity Test Results
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AlAl
Active Member
On the models with the camera, you can tap and hold the camera button on the Taskbar to take a screenshot, instead of opening the camera..
IIRC, the models without the camera have a screen grab icon instead of the camera on the Taskbar.
Regarding your captured data: If you have a live-update license, check to see if there are any additional updates on your unit. Occasionally, they need to be done sequentially, instead of just one and done. You'll typically get one for the diagnostic program, followed by a bunch of PID/library updates for each vehicle brand.
Looking back at my own scans, I'm seeing more values on the latest PDF. It is possible there is a new Honda update you need to perform, which might unlock the additional PID's
BTW: The unit we have really is nothing to write about. The camera is a potato, and all the additional appendages(like the probing camera) are extra. With the 908E, we simply have the "privilege" of purchasing expensive calibration tools which enhance the liability of our shop
All updates are done, the first ones were sequential until there were no more.
It seems like a good shop tool showing more PIDs than many of us knew existed. But, with no way to record the graph data, it is not going to work with one driver for the generator current/power investigation I was thinking about. I knew it was not a dash display, but I expected some numeric logging capability into a text file or spread sheet type format.
With the scrolling problem and random odd data in the PDFs, I think it goes back today.
It seems like a good shop tool showing more PIDs than many of us knew existed. But, with no way to record the graph data, it is not going to work with one driver for the generator current/power investigation I was thinking about. I knew it was not a dash display, but I expected some numeric logging capability into a text file or spread sheet type format.
With the scrolling problem and random odd data in the PDFs, I think it goes back today.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
Did you find that this was not a solution to the data problems in the PDF files? Your most recent files seemed promising...
Yes, all good stuff in this thread. I recall in following the Outlander PHEV saga that one excuse Mitsubishi gave for the delay in getting that model to the US market was that California required that the Battery Monitoring System have individual cell monitoring (for safety - try to prevent one bad cell from causing thermal runaway), so I knew that the Clarity had this as well. Nice to see the ability to read this data ourselves.
Too bad such devices can't be rented through Testequity, Electrorent, or the like.
If I had one, I'd loan it for free to the person that had Honda contact them out-of-the-blue offering to replace their battery just to see what Honda could see (before taking Honda up on the offer).
The one thing I'd say about these devices is that there is a real opportunity here (as has been the case in many other scenarios) to cut out the need to buy a separate 'display' device. It appears they are selling you an ancient android tablet and the tiny device that connects to the OBD port.
In this day and age, all you should have to buy is the device that connects to the OBD port with bluetooth built in (rather than this dongle) and an Android app that you download and install on your own Android tablet.
The play store would have a price tied to the app or subscription fee payable to Autel, how ever you want to describe it. You register when you pay and you get service for whatever term you choose.
In this day and age, all you should have to buy is the device that connects to the OBD port with bluetooth built in (rather than this dongle) and an Android app that you download and install on your own Android tablet.
The play store would have a price tied to the app or subscription fee payable to Autel, how ever you want to describe it. You register when you pay and you get service for whatever term you choose.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
Autel has just what you describe. A 'low cost' bluetooth dongle that you use with an App on a regular tablet. Unfortunately, the App looks to be very short on features, and doesn't provide the kind of live data that the dedicated diagnostic tablets do. I believe you are right technically speaking, but if they provided a full-featured App for conventional tablets, perhaps they would be competing with their own higher-end diagnostic devices?
Here it is: https://www.auteltech.com/autelcms/Specialty Products/595.jhtml
You can look at the manual under 'downloads' but it doesn't seem to have the equivalent of 'live data' that we need.
When you pay for the app in the store, you are given two plans to choose from, one for basic diagnostic info and a more expensive plan for all that's available.
Just to be clear: I'm not describing how Autel currently does business, but rather how when 2014 gets here and brings us Android 5, the data display functionality will be available on your own device. Oh, wait, that was five years ago.
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grandmaman
New Member
I'm pretty sure the Autel is working as a J2534 Pass-thru device to gain access to these parameters. It is the same manner that Honda's i-HDS system functions.
I originally purchased an ELM327 based device hoping I could access these same parameters, however ELM327 based scanners are extremely limited (and slow). Comma.ai makes a CAN analyzer and has a J2534 driver for it (though I haven't yet had a chance to test it) referred to as a Panda: https://comma.ai/shop/products/panda-obd-ii-dongle and driver: https://github.com/commaai/panda/tree/master/drivers/windows
I think if someone had a VCI device (like the panda, or Tactrix Openport, or chinese clone) and had HDS (which I think you can purchase a single day's access: https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/logon.aspx) they could get this same information.
I suspect there is a way to view this communication and develop your own solution that allows for logging/graphing rather than a single snapshot of the electrical system.
I originally purchased an ELM327 based device hoping I could access these same parameters, however ELM327 based scanners are extremely limited (and slow). Comma.ai makes a CAN analyzer and has a J2534 driver for it (though I haven't yet had a chance to test it) referred to as a Panda: https://comma.ai/shop/products/panda-obd-ii-dongle and driver: https://github.com/commaai/panda/tree/master/drivers/windows
I think if someone had a VCI device (like the panda, or Tactrix Openport, or chinese clone) and had HDS (which I think you can purchase a single day's access: https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/logon.aspx) they could get this same information.
I suspect there is a way to view this communication and develop your own solution that allows for logging/graphing rather than a single snapshot of the electrical system.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
I was thinking about a similar approach.
with access to a functioning diagnostic tool (like the Autel MK808BT for example) - would it be possible to 'sniff' the CAN traffic and determine what is going on to get these parameters? I suppose this would require some kind of 'breakout' cable to allow a physical connection to the signals during operation.
With your idea, using the panda / drivers, I assume you don't need a physical cable breakout... You can intercept the traffic by having access through the driver. The presumption is that the HDS would be able to query this live data in a similar way as the MK808BT.
I suppose the first step would be to obtain a panda, purchase a day of HDS and just see whether it even works, and if so, does it produce the data we are interested in? Once past that hurdle, then the hard part begins. It may take a significant amount of work to decipher the protocol into something that can be understood.
When an independent shop 'purchases' this temporary HDS access, what interface are they supposed to use?
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
I'm going to try the Autel AP200 dongle / App. Will report back as to whether it can access this same live data.
I saw some evidence that makes me somewhat optimistic.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
Here is what I have learned when trying to use the AP200 today...
I obtained an Autel AP200 and downloaded the MaxiAP200 App to an Android tablet. The first thing you do is 'register' the device with Autel. This entails establishing an on-line account and capturing the serial number of the VCI (the AP200). The account gets verified with an e-mail code. You plug the AP200 into the OBDII connector, and the App searches for the Bluetooth dongle device. At this point, you can access the enhanced OBDII functions (I assume these are 'generic' to any OBDII vehicle, and not Honda specific). You can read DTC codes and display / print "Live Data".
When you purchase the AP200, you are entitled to install vehicle-specific diagnostics for ONE manufacture for free (I obviously selected Honda). You can purchase others if you want. Now, this seems to work very much like what @AlAl showed in his screenshots from the professional unit. You can enter the VIN or use an AutoDetect function. The AutoDetect function worked fine. You choose the manufacturer (only one available, Honda), and you choose the Model. There is an entry for 'CLARITY' on the list, but I was a little suspicious to not find any distinction between the PHEV, BEV or the Fuel-cell. In any event, I selected the 'CLARITY' entry.
At this point, you an do an 'Auto-Scan', and after churning for several minutes, the App comes up with a list of all 'Control Units' that were found. In this case, here was the list that I got:
1. Engine-PGM FI
2. AT
3. SRS
4. ABS/TCS/VSA
5. Body Electrical
6. EPS
7. Keyless Access (RL)
8. Integrated Driver Support System
9. Electric servo brake system
10. Acoustic vehicle alerting system
11. CAN gateway
You can select any of these Control Units and perform the actions that @AlAl shows in his screenshots. The one we want is 'Live Data". When you do this, you get a screen showing whatever data applies, and you can create a .PDF file if you want. The formatting of the PDF's looks exactly like the ones provided by @AIAI and @sniwallof. Here is the klinker though -- The Auto Scan does not detect the 'Electric Powertrain' Control Unit (where all of the good stuff is). If you compare the list of Control Units that I get to the list in @AlAl screenshot, the correspondence is pretty good, but the most important one is missing. Here is the comparison:
I am totally convinced that this AP200 / MaxiAP200 is capable of doing what we want. There are a couple of possibilities - First, maybe the App or the Honda Diagnostic package is just not up to date. Second, they could have this intentionally dumbed-down so they can market their higher-end tools with 'additional' features.
On the MaxiApp screen where it shows the Honda Diagnostic package, it shows as V1.00. The @AlAl screenshots shows Honda V6.10. These revisions are quite different, and V1.00 is suspicious as though there have never been any updates? I did not find any updates that could be applied to this however.
The sales literature for the AP200 has these statements:
To me, 'All' should mean 'All' !!
I will try to think of a way to query Autel about this in such a way that I don't immediately get the obvious answer of "buy our better tool".
@sniwallof - Did your list of Control Units match the @AlAl list exactly? If you still have the unit, what version shows on your screens (where the @AlAl shows the 6.10)?
I obtained an Autel AP200 and downloaded the MaxiAP200 App to an Android tablet. The first thing you do is 'register' the device with Autel. This entails establishing an on-line account and capturing the serial number of the VCI (the AP200). The account gets verified with an e-mail code. You plug the AP200 into the OBDII connector, and the App searches for the Bluetooth dongle device. At this point, you can access the enhanced OBDII functions (I assume these are 'generic' to any OBDII vehicle, and not Honda specific). You can read DTC codes and display / print "Live Data".
When you purchase the AP200, you are entitled to install vehicle-specific diagnostics for ONE manufacture for free (I obviously selected Honda). You can purchase others if you want. Now, this seems to work very much like what @AlAl showed in his screenshots from the professional unit. You can enter the VIN or use an AutoDetect function. The AutoDetect function worked fine. You choose the manufacturer (only one available, Honda), and you choose the Model. There is an entry for 'CLARITY' on the list, but I was a little suspicious to not find any distinction between the PHEV, BEV or the Fuel-cell. In any event, I selected the 'CLARITY' entry.
At this point, you an do an 'Auto-Scan', and after churning for several minutes, the App comes up with a list of all 'Control Units' that were found. In this case, here was the list that I got:
1. Engine-PGM FI
2. AT
3. SRS
4. ABS/TCS/VSA
5. Body Electrical
6. EPS
7. Keyless Access (RL)
8. Integrated Driver Support System
9. Electric servo brake system
10. Acoustic vehicle alerting system
11. CAN gateway
You can select any of these Control Units and perform the actions that @AlAl shows in his screenshots. The one we want is 'Live Data". When you do this, you get a screen showing whatever data applies, and you can create a .PDF file if you want. The formatting of the PDF's looks exactly like the ones provided by @AIAI and @sniwallof. Here is the klinker though -- The Auto Scan does not detect the 'Electric Powertrain' Control Unit (where all of the good stuff is). If you compare the list of Control Units that I get to the list in @AlAl screenshot, the correspondence is pretty good, but the most important one is missing. Here is the comparison:
I am totally convinced that this AP200 / MaxiAP200 is capable of doing what we want. There are a couple of possibilities - First, maybe the App or the Honda Diagnostic package is just not up to date. Second, they could have this intentionally dumbed-down so they can market their higher-end tools with 'additional' features.
On the MaxiApp screen where it shows the Honda Diagnostic package, it shows as V1.00. The @AlAl screenshots shows Honda V6.10. These revisions are quite different, and V1.00 is suspicious as though there have never been any updates? I did not find any updates that could be applied to this however.
The sales literature for the AP200 has these statements:
- Access All Modules for Your Selected Manufacturer (Additional Manufacturers Available for In-App Purchase)
- Live Data - VIEW ALL LIVE DATA
To me, 'All' should mean 'All' !!
I will try to think of a way to query Autel about this in such a way that I don't immediately get the obvious answer of "buy our better tool".
@sniwallof - Did your list of Control Units match the @AlAl list exactly? If you still have the unit, what version shows on your screens (where the @AlAl shows the 6.10)?
PascoClarity
New Member
I also have the AP200, I have a trouble shooting session with Autel in progress. I see the same results, I returned the first VCI as defective but now I have to wait for Autel to remove the old VCI and add the new one to make it usable. The first one was probably not defective, but when it did not connect to ALL I figured that I would make sure it was not the device. I also noticed that when you select the car it is just "Clarity" not "Clarity Plug-In Hybrid". Their first reply when I submitted a log was that a new version of the firmware will be released in September. This may help, but I will also continue to work with them.
It may help if you also submit your log and ask about connection to "Electric PowerTrain".
I sent it back ... without real numeric data logging it's pretty useless for understanding parameters while driving. Autel "data logging" seems to mean saving coded files for the Autel team to solve problems, a noble effort, but not data logging as I understood it. The .dat files I came across looked coded somehow, not readable.
I had a thought about the port sniffing idea too, but I doubt that would show the conversion factors, which are probably software coded into the Honda software module in the tablet.
I felt okay sending it back as malfunctioning because of the corrupted pdfs made in relation to scrolling operations. But, even if they solve that problem, it's of limited value to me without real numeric data logging. I am surprised that feature is not just standard, seems like it should be pretty easy to write some kind of numeric text file, if not in a worksheet format. I don't need a drivable dash display unit, but did expect at least to be able to write at least few parameters at a time (like the merged graph can do three parameters) to a readable data file.
The more I looked at it, the more I am not so sure about the product placement / security. For example, there are no instructions on how to remove private data. There was one reset area, but I could not tell if that reset the closed Autel android system, leaving the machine intact, or if it reset the tablet to a clean android tablet. Did not want to risk no refund if the tablet was wiped. So, if they don't review it, and just resell the unit (packed it back up again like new), someone will at least get my email address (I did not set up the email function with passwords, just my email address alone from registering the machine with Autel).
One Autel tech told me that any of the lower cost tools were years behind the 2018/19 model years and would lack functions/modules found on the 808, 906, and 908 models. That might be what you are seeing with the AP200.
The U.S. Autel techs were super nice and patient, but seemed to lack technical information, which appears to mostly be in China. Also, I contacted the company I thought I bought the Amazon unit from. They answered quickly, but instead of answering my questions, they told me to contact Amazon. That kind of finished it off for me.
It's a real pity, that tool was soooo close to I what I was looking for.
It probably would work for the "round-robin" idea for just the pdfs, but I don't think there was enough interest to make that idea work. I think that idea would have needed at least 25+ part owners. Also, it has some risk, as in what happens if the tool gets lost or broken in shipping, or if a member accidentally breaks it?
I had a thought about the port sniffing idea too, but I doubt that would show the conversion factors, which are probably software coded into the Honda software module in the tablet.
I felt okay sending it back as malfunctioning because of the corrupted pdfs made in relation to scrolling operations. But, even if they solve that problem, it's of limited value to me without real numeric data logging. I am surprised that feature is not just standard, seems like it should be pretty easy to write some kind of numeric text file, if not in a worksheet format. I don't need a drivable dash display unit, but did expect at least to be able to write at least few parameters at a time (like the merged graph can do three parameters) to a readable data file.
The more I looked at it, the more I am not so sure about the product placement / security. For example, there are no instructions on how to remove private data. There was one reset area, but I could not tell if that reset the closed Autel android system, leaving the machine intact, or if it reset the tablet to a clean android tablet. Did not want to risk no refund if the tablet was wiped. So, if they don't review it, and just resell the unit (packed it back up again like new), someone will at least get my email address (I did not set up the email function with passwords, just my email address alone from registering the machine with Autel).
One Autel tech told me that any of the lower cost tools were years behind the 2018/19 model years and would lack functions/modules found on the 808, 906, and 908 models. That might be what you are seeing with the AP200.
The U.S. Autel techs were super nice and patient, but seemed to lack technical information, which appears to mostly be in China. Also, I contacted the company I thought I bought the Amazon unit from. They answered quickly, but instead of answering my questions, they told me to contact Amazon. That kind of finished it off for me.
It's a real pity, that tool was soooo close to I what I was looking for.
It probably would work for the "round-robin" idea for just the pdfs, but I don't think there was enough interest to make that idea work. I think that idea would have needed at least 25+ part owners. Also, it has some risk, as in what happens if the tool gets lost or broken in shipping, or if a member accidentally breaks it?
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MrFixit
Well-Known Member
@sniwallof -
What exactly are you trying to do?
To me, this electric power train data is extremely valuable to keep an eye on detailed HV battery performance right down to the individual cell level, and also allow you to monitor the total 'capacity' which is instrumental for the battery warranty. This is the first time that anyone has been able to query the total capacity without being at the mercy of the clueless dealers! For this purpose, the way it works is fine... I would do a PDF dump maybe a few times a year in order to keep a record and follow trends.
You are wanting to look at something more dynamically... What is it that you want? There are some simpler tools that can do dynamic 'logging' as you describe. They don't have all the parameters from the "Electric Powertrain", but maybe you don't need all of that.
What exactly are you trying to do?
To me, this electric power train data is extremely valuable to keep an eye on detailed HV battery performance right down to the individual cell level, and also allow you to monitor the total 'capacity' which is instrumental for the battery warranty. This is the first time that anyone has been able to query the total capacity without being at the mercy of the clueless dealers! For this purpose, the way it works is fine... I would do a PDF dump maybe a few times a year in order to keep a record and follow trends.
You are wanting to look at something more dynamically... What is it that you want? There are some simpler tools that can do dynamic 'logging' as you describe. They don't have all the parameters from the "Electric Powertrain", but maybe you don't need all of that.
I was hoping, for example, that buried in that list somewhere are generator parameters. I don't think any of us know the power rating of the generator, possibly somewhere in the 25 - 35 kW range. It would be really interesting to look at generator current and voltage under load along with traction battery current during different driving conditions, that sort of thing. None of the common tools to date to have this comprehensive list of Clarity PIDs with conversion factors.
Battery parameters are interesting. Also, if a large enough group wanted to collect data over time for comparisons between tens of cars over time, that would be cool.
But, for myself, the relatively expensive box lost value for me, when I realized data logging, is not really data logging for the user.
Battery parameters are interesting. Also, if a large enough group wanted to collect data over time for comparisons between tens of cars over time, that would be cool.
But, for myself, the relatively expensive box lost value for me, when I realized data logging, is not really data logging for the user.
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MrFixit
Well-Known Member
@PascoClarity - This is part speculation, but I think there are three parts to this. There is 'firmware' inside the AP200 that represents the low-level hardware interface to the CAN bus. Then there is the the MaxiAP200 that runs on the smart phone. Finally, the Honda-specific diagnostic piece that you download. A fix could involve any or all of these three, but my suspicion would be the Honda portion. Would Autel refer to this part as 'firmware'? It's hard to tell. I would however expect regular updates to the Honda portion (currently only V1.0) because it encompasses a LOT of different vehicles.
Note that the MaxiAP200 shows that it was just updated on July 31, 2019 in the Play Store...
When you said that you 'submitted a log', what exactly did you do? Did you somehow run the AutoScan and submit those results along with some commentary from within the tool? Or did you do something from your account on the web page?
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PascoClarity
New Member
After you run the auto scan, there is a button top right that looks like a page with a pen. It is second from the right. Press that and the pen will start to move, it takes a while but when it finishes you will get a page that allows you to add comments and submit it to Autel. The first one took a couple of days to get an answer, but now I get a response overnight to email.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
@PascoClarity - I think I submitted a log. There was no feedback indicating a successful submission, and I see no evidence of anything if I look in my web account. I'll wait a few days, to see if I her anything.
BTW - I saw something very interesting when creating this log. During the Auto Scan, it dwells on each line for a bit while the %complete chugs along. While it is processing each 'control unit' sometimes there are several messages that flash by before that line is completed and it moves on to the next line. I noticed that while it is processing Line 7 -Keyless Access (RL), a message stating "Electric Powertrain" flashes by briefly. Perhaps it is trying to interact with the Electric Powertrain, but doesn't succeed and therefore it doesn't create that line item on the list.
One more oddity... If I log into my Autel account and look at "Your Devices" it says I have 0 Devices. If I click on "Manage Devices", then I do see my device. The only option shown here is to 'remove' the device.
Please keep me posted as to what you learn from any interactions with Autel... I will do the same !
BTW - I saw something very interesting when creating this log. During the Auto Scan, it dwells on each line for a bit while the %complete chugs along. While it is processing each 'control unit' sometimes there are several messages that flash by before that line is completed and it moves on to the next line. I noticed that while it is processing Line 7 -Keyless Access (RL), a message stating "Electric Powertrain" flashes by briefly. Perhaps it is trying to interact with the Electric Powertrain, but doesn't succeed and therefore it doesn't create that line item on the list.
One more oddity... If I log into my Autel account and look at "Your Devices" it says I have 0 Devices. If I click on "Manage Devices", then I do see my device. The only option shown here is to 'remove' the device.
Please keep me posted as to what you learn from any interactions with Autel... I will do the same !
PascoClarity
New Member
If you successfully submit a log it brings up a dialog that allows to to enter your name and a description of the problem before you actually submit. Mine takes almost 5 minutes before I get the submit box. It then will bring up a message that states Submission successful.
I had noticed the line 7 Electric Drive train as well. You can also go to the page that allows manual selection of controllers and select Electric Drive train, mine tries for a long while then fails.
I had noticed the line 7 Electric Drive train as well. You can also go to the page that allows manual selection of controllers and select Electric Drive train, mine tries for a long while then fails.