An elephant in the room

[FrankinCarp]

uummm you're a little misinformed on the cost of electricity. Under the Harris government electricity generation and distribution were divided into two separate entities: Ontario Power Generation (OPG) which generates electricity and Ontario Hydro which distributes it. Also added to the mix is private power generation from wind and solar installations although they are a small part of the pie. Furthermore we have 3 different time of use rate charges. The 8c/kwh you quote is the lowest tier available only from 7pm to 7am. Then on top of that you add the "delivery charge" as they call it which has been running around 6 to 7c/kwh in my case bringing the lowest tier cost up to 14c/kwh. Charging during peak periods will cost around 27c/kwh.

Actually, I am aware of the delivery charges and as for time of day, right now HydroOne rate is 0.082/kWh 24/7 for at least the months of January and February.

A COVID freeze rate was ordered by the climate change denying Ontario government.

Doug Ford, having taken Ontario out of the cap and trade exchange with Quebec & California, cancelled wind and solar projects, ripped out EV chargers, cancelled subsidies for EV, Hybrid & PHEVs, has been playing games with hydro rates ever since coming into office.
But perhaps enough politics. Some of us buy EVs even without subsidies because it is the right thing to do.

The separation of kWh and delivery charges by Harris is supposed to account for the maintenance and expansion of the grid irrespective of the actual power delivery. This is similar to the separation of the pipeline delivery charges and gas flowing through those lines.
The delivery charge more than doubled from last year and currently runs about $60 per month, and examining my billings for the last 6 months, not based on the number of kWh consumed. HydroOne offers 2 rate structures for residential customers. Time of Day does have 3 tiers but customers can also elect to be charged a fixed rate for 1000 kWh and a second rate for any additional consumption. Currently, this rate is the same as the 7pm to 7am rate under time of use so it doesn't matter when I charge. When this rate changes, it will likely be better for me to switch to time of day (I will then schedule to charge at low cost 7pm to 7am.)
I live in an area where I am "served" by HydroOne rather than one of the regional or municipal Hydro companies.

I agree that I did not include delivery charges in my costing but it is not a question of being misinformed. I consider the delivery charge to be irrelevant because that would be there if I didn't even turn on a single light, cook a hot dog or dry a wash load.
If I did include the current delivery charge as a part of the rate, it would add just under 0.06/kWh.

Even at 0.14/kWh, running my MINI Cooper SE is far cheaper than any ICE car at CAD $2.49 per 100 km or 1/4 the cost of the Honda Fit I compared in the previous post.

An it is still a hellova lot more fun to drive a MINI Cooper SE than many other cars.

 

[Bruce M.]

This thread has gone through discussions of how much this matters, but I want to go back to the beginning and question this number. You didn’t give many details of your test case, and when I run the numbers, EA is priced at about the equivalent of $2.50/gallon gasoline. This is cheaper than gas, even for public charging!

First things first, if you use EA a lot, get the $4/mo membership. Then it costs 31¢/kWh.

Here’s how I got my number. I use a factor of 8x to compare. My Mini gets about 4 miles/kWh. A gas Cooper gets about 24MPG. Hence to convert from kWh to gallons (cost wise), multiply by 8.

The number will depend on the two cars you compare so let’s take your example of MachE (2.8) versus CRV (29). This gives a factor of about 10x. So the equivalent cost for the MachE is about $3.10/gallon, which is still cheaper than gas, at least near me.


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs

Maybe I missed a post, but I don't see that anyone caught the obvious math error in your Mini Cooper comparison: 24 divided by 4 = 6, not 8. The multiplication factor you want is 6 if you're converting kwh to gallons of gasoline.

 

[Raylo]

This ought to help depending on how it all rolls out. Of course, the devil will be in the details, but this is exactly what I have been talking about.

Network of electric vehicle chargers along interstates in Biden plan - The Washington Post

One key excerpt:
The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials suggested the new federal funding was an opportunity to ensure prices for charging are listed in terms of kilowatts per hour and to require that charging can be paid with credit and debit cards, rather than through an account with charging providers.

 

[Mark W]

I don't have an idea of where it's going, but believe the costs will come down in time. One thing I would recommend is looking for free chargers. I drove out to Hagerstown a few years back and looked up a fast charging station. Seems I stumbled across 4 fast chargers and all were absolutely free! (behind the municipal building in town). I don't know if they are still free, but I was quite surprised to find it. I love electric and do most (99.9%) of my charging at home on my level 2 charger and have solar panels supplying all my house and car electric needs. Your information is quite shocking about ICE fuel being 40% less. I'm sure which fast charger and area have much to do with that overall cost. Unfortunately, some won't have many options; dependent on the area that they live.

So, what do you do with yourself while your car is charging behind a municipal building giving you maybe 20 miles of range in an hour? I love my EVs, but I have almost never found public charging to be worth the hassle. There is a time here or there where a charger happens to be conveniently located to what I'm doing, but it has to be in the rare case where I'm spending multiple hours somewhere. We have two EVs in our family, but I still have a PHEV for any long trips. When I go on a trip somewhere, I want to spend my time where I want to spend the valuable time, not near a charger, and not on an app finding the next charger. I want to eat at the best place I can find, not at the restaurant that has a charger. Everyone is different though in how they look at these trips.

 

[Mark W]

So many thoughts reading this entertaining thread –

The main one is that different people have vastly different reasons for buying one car over another. Some people like me do number crunching trying to find the best value. Some base most of their decision on the looks/image of the car. Their primary concern is what their car says about them. Others look primarily at utility. As mentioned above, a good number of people buy pickup trucks even though they don’t use it as a pickup very often. Or they need it to tow a trailer occasionally. Also, some people simply don’t care that much about the car they have. They don’t really do any research or put much thought into it. They can’t be bothered with price haggling (back when you could do that!).

We’re all different. Don’t try to push your values on others!

Many people like me forget sometimes just how many people can’t do home EV charging for one reason or another. I don’t know the percentage, but it’s significant!

Cold weather is a BIG problem for long EV trips, both with range and the time it takes to recharge.

I don’t know too much about the economics of installing and running charging stations. What I do know is that that the owner/operator of them needs an incentive to keep them operating. Many of the free chargers near me that seemed to be installed by some government entity simply don’t work, and nobody seems to care. Which brings me to a main point – highway charging should cost a premium. Somebody needs to be making money from it. I pay 21 cents per kwh at my home in CT. So, if I have to pay 31 cent per kwh at Electrify America, I think that’s pretty darn fair. Yes, on road trips I should pay more for electricity just like I pay more for gas, and I pay more for that hamburger. I don’t believe in free charging. Nothing is really free.

We’re making the transition to EVs right now. It makes sense for some more than others. I love EVs, but the transition won’t happen overnight. It shouldn’t IMHO.

 

[bwilson4web]

Cold weather is a BIG problem for long EV trips, both with range and the time it takes to recharge.

I suggest we are learning how to deal with sub-freezing weather:

• preconditioning
• cabin temperature
• tires and tire pressure

Bob Wilson

 

[Mark W]

I suggest we are learning how to deal with sub-freezing weather:

• preconditioning
• cabin temperature
• tires and tire pressure

Bob Wilson

We know all about that stuff. You're right, those things help a little, but it's still a problem. My Chevy Bolt, with "239 miles of range" gets about 150 when it's really cold and I manage those things. You could say that the Bolt is a bad example, and that's fair, it seems to be one of the worst with cold and it's an older design. I was looking at the new Ioniq 5, billed as a charging monster. 256 miles of range, and can charge from 10 to 80 percent in 18 minutes! That is literally a game changer for road trips!... except when it's cold. In Tom Moloughney's 70mph test in fairly cold weather, he got 195 miles of range, and didn't come anywhere near the quoted charging speed. In warm weather, I think the Ioniq 5 and EV6 are truly a major advance for road trips, but not in the cold.

 

[AndysComputer]

The people who cannot charge at home are at a big disadvantage. Until there are fast chargers at places you would want to go (which is the case for EA at Walmart, great for apartment dwellers who can fast charge while they shop because they can’t at home) an EV is not as convenient as ICE.

I also don’t care about the fast charging cost in the highway. The reality is that most people are not going to use them as much as they think they are, however it may be a factor for ppl who can’t charge at home.

I can see L2 chargers showing up everywhere in the future and grabbing a bit of charge here and there will be a bit like adding a bit of charge to your phone here and there.

it’s early days yet.

I remember passing through the computer revolution of the 80’s, the cell phone boomof the 90’d, the internet book of the 00’s, the smartphone boom of the 10’s. In each of those cases I listened to people say they couldn’t understand each of them and they would never have one and so on and so on and now look. When a new technology is demonstrably better and EV’s already are, people will switch and as it snowballs past early adopter geeks to family, friends and neighbors it will accelerate. All tech goes through S-curves if demand. We are just now starting the rapid rise section of the S.

It doesn’t matter if an old Nokia did everything you needed, just as everyone else you now have a much more expensive smartphone because it’s better. And everyone will have an EV.

My current concern is more the people who actually need to tow etc as I just don’t see this working out for big pickups and towing. The batteries cost too much, they weigh too much and take too long to charge and at too high a cost. Of course the silver lining is it might dissuade people from buying one who don’t need one. But I think diesel trucks will stay until hydrogen is viable.

 

[Jim Matthews]

uummm you're a little misinformed on the cost of electricity. Under the Harris government electricity generation and distribution were divided into two separate entities: Ontario Power Generation (OPG) which generates electricity and Ontario Hydro which distributes it. Also added to the mix is private power generation from wind and solar installations although they are a small part of the pie. Furthermore we have 3 different time of use rate charges. The 8c/kwh you quote is the lowest tier available only from 7pm to 7am. Then on top of that you add the "delivery charge" as they call it which has been running around 6 to 7c/kwh in my case bringing the lowest tier cost up to 14c/kwh. Charging during peak periods will cost around 27c/kwh.

"Ontario
The average cost of electricity in Ontario is $0.130 per kWh, or $130 per month, assuming an average monthly usage of 1,000 kWh. This is up from $0.125 per kWh, or $125 per month in 2020."

https://www.energyhub.org/electrici... Ontario is $0.130 per,$125 per month in 2020.

Assuming the MiniSE achieves 177 miles on 32 kwh charge, that's $2.16 to "full". That's .024 cad per mile. What's the equivalent in a gas powered version?

(Even if you amortize the cost of a L2 charger, it *should* cost less over a year.)

I'm in Massachusetts, with very expensive electricity. I would need to drive a vehicle with better than 50 mpg (combined) to break even using gasoline.

 

[Almost Green]

This ought to help depending on how it all rolls out. Of course, the devil will be in the details, but this is exactly what I have been talking about.

Network of electric vehicle chargers along interstates in Biden plan - The Washington Post

One key excerpt:
The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials suggested the new federal funding was an opportunity to ensure prices for charging are listed in terms of kilowatts per hour and to require that charging can be paid with credit and debit cards, rather than through an account with charging providers.

Between EA and Tesla most of the interstates already have FC's scattered across the country. So I'm wondering what the Biden plan is talking about.

 

[bwilson4web]

Between EA and Tesla most of the interstates already have FC's scattered across the country. So I'm wondering what the Biden plan is talking about.

“Managing user expectations” by claiming Fast DC chargers will flood the streets and highways. <YAWN>

Bob Wilson

 

[EVBirder]

We have had our Kona EV sine Sept. 2020 and have so far only taken two trips, as my husband is disabled, so it's way more of an adventure than before! BUT, that being said, I have never had to pay for charging yet! I've stayed at Air BnBs with chargers there, or at hotels with free chargers, and I installed a charger in my garage. My comparison would be with my former Rav4 hybrid, too, so that used far less gas than a Tacoma truck would. For us, getting into the EV cost us the price of the car, less the sale of the Rav4, plus the cost of the charger and electrician's work, minus the Federal tax credit which I took last year, minus the state credit, minus the local electrical utility credit, so off the top I deducted $10,500 in tax credits/rebates, and I paid $500 for the charger and $400 for the installation (I had other things being done, too), BUT, I have not spent one cent on gas for 1 1/2 years! When I do travel, I spend alot of time planning it, as I must, due to my spouse's needs, but we will venture farther than the Oregon coast or a relative's home near Spokane soon, so the planning needs to be extensive. My goal is always to get free charging, but I'm sure I won't always be able to do that! But, I've been heartened by being able to do so thus far, in two day-long trips in the past year.

So, maybe do some make-believe planning to see how you might manage it; it can be a game, kind of, but the result is a possibly more realistic look at your potential costs overall.

 

[Bruce M.]

It seems to me one of the best ways government could speed the transition to EVs is to provide serious incentives for installing chargers at a) multiunit apartment and condo complexes and b) workplace parking lots. The day will come when EV charging will be as common at apartment buildings as parking spaces are now, but a kickstart would help greatly. Workplaces are another place folks spend many hours, so L2 would be more than adequate.

At least a couple states have programs for residential buildings, but they seem to be little-known and under-utilized.

 

[Mark W]

It seems to me one of the best ways government could speed the transition to EVs is to provide serious incentives for installing chargers at a) multiunit apartment and condo complexes and b) workplace parking lots. The day will come when EV charging will be as common at apartment buildings as parking spaces are now, but a kickstart would help greatly. Workplaces are another place folks spend many hours, so L2 would be more than adequate.

At least a couple states have programs for residential buildings, but they seem to be little-known and under-utilized.

I also think this is a good idea, but I have always thought if I was a business or landlord, would I want to deal with one more thing for people to complain about? People like to complain about everything. So you install a two stall charger in your apartment building, what happens when you get the third, fourth, fifth EV driver and you have to start dealing with arguments and complaints about not having access, and people not moving their car after being charged, etc, etc.

 

[bwilson4web]

. . . one more thing for people to complain about?

I stopped to charge at Whole Foods and found someone had pulled the J1772 out and broken the latch:

It was sitting on the walkway next to the EVSE. So I took about 10 minutes to navigate the ChargePoint 'support' phone system and file a report. When they broke it, the pilot resistor switch was jammed . . . open so you could 'hot power' remove from the car. Fortunately, my Tesla has a replaceable adapter.

The abuse of the commons makes you wonder who these people are. Everything from bathroom stall door latches to paper towels and pretty much anything in public access.

Bob Wilson

 

[guyofthesky]

The people who cannot charge at home are at a big disadvantage. Until there are fast chargers at places you would want to go (which is the case for EA at Walmart, great for apartment dwellers who can fast charge while they shop because they can’t at home) an EV is not as convenient as ICE.

I also don’t care about the fast charging cost in the highway. The reality is that most people are not going to use them as much as they think they are, however it may be a factor for ppl who can’t charge at home.

I can see L2 chargers showing up everywhere in the future and grabbing a bit of charge here and there will be a bit like adding a bit of charge to your phone here and there.

it’s early days yet.

I remember passing through the computer revolution of the 80’s, the cell phone boomof the 90’d, the internet book of the 00’s, the smartphone boom of the 10’s. In each of those cases I listened to people say they couldn’t understand each of them and they would never have one and so on and so on and now look. When a new technology is demonstrably better and EV’s already are, people will switch and as it snowballs past early adopter geeks to family, friends and neighbors it will accelerate. All tech goes through S-curves if demand. We are just now starting the rapid rise section of the S.I

It doesn’t matter if an old Nokia did everything you needed, just as everyone else you now have a much more expensive smartphone because it’s better. And everyone will have an EV.

My current concern is more the people who actually need to tow etc as I just don’t see this working out for big pickups and towing. The batteries cost too much, they weigh too much and take too long to charge and at too high a cost. Of course the silver lining is it might dissuade people from buying one who don’t need one. But I think diesel trucks will stay until hydrogen is viable.

I agree with this.

I do think that if we get a network with DC Fast chargers every fifty miles apart, designed for trailers to pull in without unhooking, then the occasional pickup/trailer trip could work. It would be slower, but doable.

If you are pulling a heavy trailer every day for long distances, then I agree that the current energy density of lithium-ion isn't a good solution.

 

[Calliope]

So, what do you do with yourself while your car is charging behind a municipal building giving you maybe 20 miles of range in an hour? I love my EVs, but I have almost never found public charging to be worth the hassle.

I can sit at my home computer for an hour or two dealing with emails and reading the papers, and I can equally do that in my car while I charge. Not because it's free, but because we don't have home charging available -- it's like going to a laundromat because you don't have laundry machines at home.

Many of the free chargers near me that seemed to be installed by some government entity simply don’t work, and nobody seems to care.

That was a frequent problem for me, especially DCFC and especially once the pandemic hit. That was true even for some chargers that weren't free - repairs were often so slow as to be non-existent.

My Chevy Bolt, with "239 miles of range" gets about 150 when it's really cold and I manage those things.

What we forget is the range of ICE cars drops dramatically in cold weather too - maybe not as much, but still a significant amount. We just didn't think about refuelling more often because it was so ordinary as to be forgettable. And because ICE cars aren't sold with a promise of X miles per tank of gas, like BEVs are sold by X miles per full battery.

Until there are fast chargers at places you would want to go (which is the case for EA at Walmart, great for apartment dwellers who can fast charge while they shop because they can’t at home) an EV is not as convenient as ICE.

Very true, and I lived without being able to charge at home (an apartment building) for 2 years. It was manageable, but not convenient. However, because I chose my car (a Leaf at that time) while knowing I'd have to deal with that inconvenience, I didn't mind too much. I'd go to a charging station prepared to spend some time reading emails or newspapers, or chatting on the phone. I spent a lot of time thinking about that before I made the choice to switch to an EV, and a lot of people thought I was crazy and would switch back to an ICE within a year or so - but for me, going to an EV was a paradigm shift that they just couldn't appreciate. I dis switch cars a few years later - to a Tesla Y - and can't see myself ever going back to an ICE.

So you install a two stall charger in your apartment building, what happens when you get the third, fourth, fifth EV driver and you have to start dealing with arguments and complaints about not having access, and people not moving their car after being charged, etc, etc.

The first part of your post is exactly the situation now at my building - two 3rd party EV chargers in the visitor parking area. I don't know precisely how many EVs there are among residents (maybe I should drive around and look), but I've seen 5 different EVs charging there at various times. I have gone to charge and discovered them all full -- twice in 10 months -- but it never occurred to me to complain, frankly. I charged the next day. If I was in a real rush, I'd drive to a Supercharger (or DCFC if I still owned my Leaf) to fuel up for my upcoming road trip, or whatever. I might complain if the spots were full with cars that weren't charging, but that wasn't the case; the building knows who is charging and will know if a resident leaves their car there too long. The building budget includes plans to increase the number of chargers in the next few years if the use suggests the need; part of the reason I moved to this building was the charging ability and their planning ahead for things like that.

 

[bwilson4web]

. . . going to an EV was a paradigm shift that they just couldn't appreciate.

Absolutely correct. I was a Prius owner until 2016 when I bought our first EV, a 2014 BMW i3-REx that we still have.

The REx meant we did not have to wait on the nearly non-existent, CCS-1 fast DC chargers. Driving cross country was like a motorcycle trip but much more comfortable. We tried a 2017 Prius Prime but it was not as useful as the BMW i3-REx. So we traded the Prius Prime in for Tesla Model 3 Std Rng Plus.

After nearly three years, this cold winter caught me by surprise on one trip. Following the car recommendations, we reached our destination, an hour late but safe. I've adjusted my home charging practices to support ad hoc, cold weather trips into a sub-freezing, strong headwind. Once March gets here, I'll backoff to my battery saving practices.

As you posted, it is a 'paradigm shift' and not everyone is able to adapt. Still gas prices and availability will provide motivation.

Bob Wilson

 

[Keith Smith]

MATHS & opinion & batteries::
Like any other new technology EV is still maturing. Frankly if you can't 'home charge' the benefits of an EV diminish dramatically. That being said, I have a KonaEV, NiroEV, SonataPHEV. Using the latter in pure hybrid mode as a baseline it gets right at 40MPG. I need electricity at ~0.28/kwh to match fuel costs at $3.00/gal. The using mi/kwh as comparison makes the math is pretty simple. These two are listed at <4.0mi/kwh (3.7 and 3.8 or something), but real world I rarely drive over 50MPH, and I can tweak 4.5+ out of the Niro, even better out of the Kona, and I only use l1 regen, for a more conventional driving experience.

Using mi/kwh is more sane for comparing to gas costs. If I get 40MPG then to go 200 miles I need (200/40) = 5 gallons of fuel x $3 = $15. Even my GF (who drives the Kona) gets at least 4.1/kwh so for 200mi I need (200/4.1) = 49kwh, so here's where it gets interesting in the math. I pay 0.07 off peak which is pretty close to 100% of my charging. < $3.50 for that 200 miles. OTOH I have charged commercially twice, honestly just to "get the hang of it". EA once and EvGO once, ~15% to 85%. so only about 40-45 KWH. Both times my charging bills were < $20. I'm going to take a trip this summer, I think in the Niro (It's a bit larger, but the Kona is an 'Ultimate', and very pleasant with all the snivel).

Lastly, an ICE vehicle is much more consistent in energy consumption under different conditions. ICE vehicles actually get better mileage on the highway because you reduce the speed variance which wastes combustables. EV's do much worse on the highway, because the speed variance is not relevant, they only use the energy needed for the task, and don't waste any idling and waste much less accelerating. Further an ICE is not nearly as affected by cold. Yes MPG goes down, more if short trips, and/or driving around town, but nothing like an EV will. I doubt you'd notice much drop on a long road trip.

Finally regarding battery technology. There are several on the horizon, but I think the most promising is Aluminum-ION. New materials tech with graphine has enabled viable cells, around 3 times the current density of LiION, and near zero internal resistance. A company in AU backed by Bosch is currently producing button cell prototypes for evaluation, and hopes to have pouch batteries rolling out in a year. Another company in the Far East (might be China) is also claiming to have figured this out, it's privately held, and hasn't produced anything other than in the lab as of yet AFAIK. Even if it can't hit the 3X mark the materials used to make AlION are plentiful have low toxicity and are almost 100% recyclable. This would be huge in and of itself. If it hit's the 3X mark with similar reliability, then we could see something like a 1000 mi range vehicle. This would cause a radical paradigm shift. You could even cut the size down by 1/3, and still get 500mi/charge. Just keep it mostly full, and charge wherever/whenever convenient. I could go to LA and back, plug in when I get home. Who cares if it takes 3 days to "fill-up"? The questions remain around reliability, and scalable production, but like the LED bulb, and flat screen TV, I'm thinking this will not be insurmountable.

I'm not a greenie, or an EV bigot. I just think the technology has a lot of promise, and oddly is nominally more efficient/BTU than burning liquid fuel directly. Add in the lower general maintenance, You have a transfer case and an electric motor, and just the ease of driving (I don't do 1-pedal I think it's awful) in general and things are getting fun! I can say, if you've ever driven an EV for any length of time, the responsiveness of an ICE feels weird afterwards. No general vibration when running, no additional noise when accelerating.

 

[Raylo]

Just to refresh this old thread... here is a gentleman that expresses my viewpoint a lot more eloquently than I can in a forum. And also why I am headed towards a PHEV for my next vehicle. This particular one is very nice but also $$. Something like the RAV 4 Prime is also a contender. His main point is that it is premature for trying to go full BEV since the infrastructure for when you need to charge away from home is just not there. That was is my main concern and point to all this. And he is in the UK where if anything things are better for BEVs than here in the US.

BMW X5 45e longterm test. Why I've gone from electric to a plug-in hybrid for the family car - YouTube