An elephant in the room

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This is very important whether you get EV or ICE. I am not that old to overly worry about this yet personally, but I did help my mom a couple years ago to get out of dad's old evil handling and overpowered V8 Chevy Impala into a Mazda MX5 that has most of this tech, to include automatic emergency braking. Also has much better visibility. Don't get me wrong, this stuff can help anybody of any age. People make mistakes. So my next car will have it for sure.

marshall said:
Well if the technology in the new car can help prevent one from getting into an accident, that may be worth the cost of a new vehicle right there.

Note, for us old folks, getting into an accident is greater than any other age group outside of teenagers. On top of that, our bodies can't take the blows that a twenty year old can take, so there is a greater chance of serious bodily injury.

Good luck with your decision.
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I disagree. Dealers just sell what they have and there still just aren't that many EVs offered, and those that are offered are even less available than ICE vehicles. 5 years from now it'll be very different.

Jim Matthews said:
The roadblock to EV adoption is legacy car dealers "steering" customers to ICE vehicles and their valuable service revenues.
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Raylo said:
No offense but you guys must misunderstand. I want an EV. And no one ever said they didn't make great sense as a daily driver. But if any journey outside the range of one's home L2 wall plug is priced like Disneyland EVs are never gonna be willingly accepted.
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That's only the case if you're covering lots of ground in one day and need pricey fast charging. As noted, some hotels and motels have free L2 charging, but one I stayed at last year did charge -- and it was still cheaper than gas, and "filling up" overnight was a breeze. And there's a decent amount of free L2 charging around, at least in some areas. A bit over a year ago I took a mini-vacation to the town of Monterey, California. The city has conveniently placed free L2 stations in two city parking garages near the historic downtown and Fisherman's Wharf -- places where both tourists and locals go to sightsee, dine and shop. Without the slightest alteration in my itinerary I was able to charge there enough to cover all my local wanderings plus the 120 miles back to my then-home in San Francisco. If there are places you regularly travel, take some time to look on PlugShare to scope out the charging options on the way and at your destination. You might be surprised.
 
Raylo said:
I disagree. Dealers just sell what they have and there still just aren't that many EVs offered, and those that are offered are even less available than ICE vehicles. 5 years from now it'll be very different.
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Not true. Dealers make most of their money on service, not sales, meaning EVs are significantly less profitable for them. Even if they don't overtly steer buyers away from EVs, many make little effort to sell them. The Sierra Club has done repeated investigations of this.
 
Once EVs become more dominant, L3's will replace gas stations, BUT it will cost more to "fill" up your EV than it did your old ICE car. And L2s will start charging more, too, Even your home electricity will go way up. That's where we are heading... And unless we can find more renewables, not sure our planet will be any better off.

I really don't think this new Green Deal has been well thought out. Should concentrate more and first on the grid gross production of clean energy.
 
R P said:
Even your home electricity will go way up. That's where we are heading... And unless we can find more renewables, not sure our planet will be any better off.

I really don't think this new Green Deal has been well thought out.
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The obvious solution is to put PV panels on your house and directly charge a battery (either a backup or the direct to vehicle).

Places with municipal hydropower will see broad adoption, soonest.
 
Jim Matthews said:
The obvious solution is to put PV panels on your house and directly charge a battery (either a backup or the direct to vehicle).

Places with municipal hydropower will see broad adoption, soonest.
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Agree, and our cabin is totally off grid with solar. Works great. But unfortunately the regs and costs to do it at home don't make it feasible.

Fortunately in Canada, and in BC where I live, we have an abundance of hydro power. And yes, we have very high EV adoption in BC, even higher than CA. My statement was more directed at the US and other countries. They need to work harder on cleaner, reliable energy if they want EVs to be more successful after adoption. More roof top solar would certainly help. Why not mandate every new building to have solar?

Also, public chargers should be by kWh, not by time. There can be limits and penalties for charging too long. Software is cheap and easy.
 
R P said:
Also, public chargers should be by kWh, not by time. There can be limits and penalties for charging too long. Software is cheap and easy.
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Standards will undoubtedly be promulgated after enough users show up to complain about (forgive the necessary pun) overcharging.

It's not a difficult siting challenge, either. Every fallow shopping mall in the US is already wired for lamp posts. If not high current DC charging, perhaps enough to get home from running errands...

https://www.thebluebook.com/iProVie...harging-stations-bellis-fair-mall-407874.html
 
This what I am worried about myself... although I am not sure you need all that many L3 locally if people are charging mostly at home. Cheaper and easier to deploy L2 might be enough for folks who need a small boost to get home. And I love PVs but they are still too expensive for many installation applications. The payback period is simply too long and that not even counting if you need to pull them and reinstall them to repair a roof along the way, and PV panel production has its own enviro impacts. That might change if utility prices increase and PV panels and inverter prices come down. But being the cynic that I am I believe we are in for a world of $ butt hurt. They will charge us $$$ simply because they can.

And you are correct that this is not well thought out. That's because the anti-regulation nonsense here means that it is a free for all and the "competition" doesn't benefit consumers. It is just a bunch of players working the system and figuring out how to maximize profits at our expense.


R P said:
Once EVs become more dominant, L3's will replace gas stations, BUT it will cost more to "fill" up your EV than it did your old ICE car. And L2s will start charging more, too, Even your home electricity will go way up. That's where we are heading... And unless we can find more renewables, not sure our planet will be any better off.

I really don't think this new Green Deal has been well thought out. Should concentrate more and first on the grid gross production of clean energy.
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Sure they make more on ICE service than they will on EVs but that's a separate issue. Over time they are going to have to adapt or go out of business. There will still be a huge fleet of ICE needing service for at least another couple of decades. My point is that that is not the issue now that inhibits selling EVs. The issue is that there just aren't many available. And the other issue is that EVs are like PCs used to be. They are improving so fast that many consumers are waiting as long as possible to get something even better.

Bruce M. said:
Not true. Dealers make most of their money on service, not sales, meaning EVs are significantly less profitable for them. Even if they don't overtly steer buyers away from EVs, many make little effort to sell them. The Sierra Club has done repeated investigations of this.
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It may well be that an EV right now is not the right choice for you. When it comes to the stop and go driving that goes with built up areas the EVs absolutely clobber the ICE vehicles not only in energy costs but wear and tear. Short trips around town are just bad for ICE vehicles. The highway is another matter. You have to buy a vehicle with enough range that you'd have to stop for a bladder break anyhow and have a little stretch while picking up some charge. The winter is another matter altogether with about a 40% range loss when temps dip considerably below freezing.

I have gone back to taking my old ICE vehicle and longer winter runs for a few reasons: (1) The ICE produces waste heat and plenty of it. With all the restaurants having been closed due to covid, sitting in the cold munching on a half frozen lunch at an L3 really sucks. (2) There is the road time savings of not having to stop to charge or finding the charger you really needed is broken or has two others ahead of you waiting. (3) You have to drive the ICE car a little or the brakes rot away, gasoline goes stale and seals can dry out.

On the other hand you say you're retired. Well is your financial situation solid enough that you can afford a little luxury after a life of hard work? Don't think of an EV as something that's going to save you money. Think of it as something that's much more pleasant to spend your road time in. I don't miss the drone of an engine for sure when on the highway and the EV will get up to speed quickly without a roaring engine and bangy down shift. You really should see if you can rent or borrow an EV capable of doing the highway and take it on a longer trip just to experience the feeling. You may like it so much that the cost of charging away from home will become a minor issue. Money management is important at any age but different in the later years. Enjoy your retirement but be careful about not nickle and dimeing yourself out of life's pleasures while you're still able to enjoy them. All the best.
 
Oh, I am fine in retirement and can afford what I want. I am more worried more for future generations and get frustrated when people don't get more outraged by stuff like this. I'd like to see the charging infrastructure treated like a utility and everything be universally interoperative and cheap. IOW not just let it go like we have for, say, broadband, where monopolies and anti-consumer practices are standard procedure. Otherwise the transition will be slow, ugly and not all that beneficial.

Paul K said:
It may well be that an EV right now is not the right choice for you. When it comes to the stop and go driving that goes with built up areas the EVs absolutely clobber the ICE vehicles not only in energy costs but wear and tear. Short trips around town are just bad for ICE vehicles. The highway is another matter. You have to buy a vehicle with enough range that you'd have to stop for a bladder break anyhow and have a little stretch while picking up some charge. The winter is another matter altogether with about a 40% range loss when temps dip considerably below freezing.

I have gone back to taking my old ICE vehicle and longer winter runs for a few reasons: (1) The ICE produces waste heat and plenty of it. With all the restaurants having been closed due to covid, sitting in the cold munching on a half frozen lunch at an L3 really sucks. (2) There is the road time savings of not having to stop to charge or finding the charger you really needed is broken or has two others ahead of you waiting. (3) You have to drive the ICE car a little or the brakes rot away, gasoline goes stale and seals can dry out.

On the other hand you say you're retired. Well is your financial situation solid enough that you can afford a little luxury after a life of hard work? Don't think of an EV as something that's going to save you money. Think of it as something that's much more pleasant to spend your road time in. I don't miss the drone of an engine for sure when on the highway and the EV will get up to speed quickly without a roaring engine and bangy down shift. You really should see if you can rent or borrow an EV capable of doing the highway and take it on a longer trip just to experience the feeling. You may like it so much that the cost of charging away from home will become a minor issue. Money management is important at any age but different in the later years. Enjoy your retirement but be careful about not nickle and dimeing yourself out of life's pleasures while you're still able to enjoy them. All the best.
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Right now I'd equate public charging (especially DC Fast charging) to going to a restaurant to eat. It costs more per "meal", but there are advantages and sometimes you need or want to do it. As the infrastructure grows we should see more competitive pricing. I personally "shop around" for cheap public charging since I have to locate chargers via an app (PlugShare is your friend), and I can plan my route based on the charger I need to visit. So I rarely pay anything even when using public charging. I don't think this is much different from those ICE drivers who will drive 15 miles out of their way to save a few cents per gallon.
 
Puppethead said:
Right now I'd equate public charging (especially DC Fast charging) to going to a restaurant to eat. It costs more per "meal", but there are advantages and sometimes you need or want to do it. As the infrastructure grows we should see more competitive pricing. I personally "shop around" for cheap public charging since I have to locate chargers via an app (PlugShare is your friend), and I can plan my route based on the charger I need to visit. So I rarely pay anything even when using public charging. I don't think this is much different from those ICE drivers who will drive 15 miles out of their way to save a few cents per gallon.
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The only difference is that someone in an EV driving out of their way to get cheaper charging is not polluting like someone in an ICE driving out of their way to save on fuel.
 
Raylo said:
I did the math for my test case and that EA fast charge price is the equivalent of $5.60/gallon gasoline.
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This thread has gone through discussions of how much this matters, but I want to go back to the beginning and question this number. You didn’t give many details of your test case, and when I run the numbers, EA is priced at about the equivalent of $2.50/gallon gasoline. This is cheaper than gas, even for public charging!

First things first, if you use EA a lot, get the $4/mo membership. Then it costs 31¢/kWh.

Here’s how I got my number. I use a factor of 8x to compare. My Mini gets about 4 miles/kWh. A gas Cooper gets about 24MPG. Hence to convert from kWh to gallons (cost wise), multiply by 8.

The number will depend on the two cars you compare so let’s take your example of MachE (2.8) versus CRV (29). This gives a factor of about 10x. So the equivalent cost for the MachE is about $3.10/gallon, which is still cheaper than gas, at least near me.


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GetOffYourGas said:
This thread has gone through discussions of how much this matters, but I want to go back to the beginning and question this number. You didn’t give many details of your test case, and when I run the numbers, EA is priced at about the equivalent of $2.50/gallon gasoline. This is cheaper than gas, even for public charging!

First things first, if you use EA a lot, get the $4/mo membership. Then it costs 31¢/kWh.

Here’s how I got my number. I use a factor of 8x to compare. My Mini gets about 4 miles/kWh. A gas Cooper gets about 24MPG. Hence to convert from kWh to gallons (cost wise), multiply by 8.

The number will depend on the two cars you compare so let’s take your example of MachE (2.8) versus CRV (29). This gives a factor of about 10x. So the equivalent cost for the MachE is about $3.10/gallon, which is still cheaper than gas, at least near me.


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Thanks, @GetOffYourGas. Surprised the thread got this far without anyone mentioning this. There's also the fact that many, if not most EVs today, come with some amount of free charging for 2 to 3 years. $.41/kWh is an outrageous amount, but few are actually paying that.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
This thread has gone through discussions of how much this matters, but I want to go back to the beginning and question this number. You didn’t give many details of your test case, and when I run the numbers, EA is priced at about the equivalent of $2.50/gallon gasoline. This is cheaper than gas, even for public charging!

First things first, if you use EA a lot, get the $4/mo membership. Then it costs 31¢/kWh.

However, in Washington state we pay an addition $150 per year plus a 10 percent utility tax on electricity.

Here’s how I got my number. I use a factor of 8x to compare. My Mini gets about 4 miles/kWh. A gas Cooper gets about 24MPG. Hence to convert from kWh to gallons (cost wise), multiply by 8.

The number will depend on the two cars you compare so let’s take your example of MachE (2.8) versus CRV (29). This gives a factor of about 10x. So the equivalent cost for the MachE is about $3.10/gallon, which is still cheaper than gas, at least near me.


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
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Using the federal government numbers from the fuel economy web site for Mini electric and a gas model, it's a $4.10 a gallon equivalent at .41 EA rate. At the EA rate of .31, it's $3.10 a gallon.

You pay the 4 bucks and get the .31 rate if you on the road for more than 129 miles, as that's the breakeven point that I calculated.
 
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Effective cost per liter (if EVs had to pay for gas) :)
FKXh15EVgAARqrK

Source:
https://twitter.com/vevabc
When this article was released, gas prices were higher (but not by much) @ $1.91 on January 10th,2022






 
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