An elephant in the room

[DLinLV]

For high milage customers it may make sense for charging companies to create tiered service levels for customers, which EA kind of does now. For a monthly fee you can get a lower kW rate when charging. Tiering for high use customers will end up making sense if charging 9.995/month and giving those customers a 40-50% reduction off the standard kW rate.
The charging company still makes the money since many of those "subscribers" wont use that much charging, which subsidizes those who use it more. Its a basis for subscription models--majority do not take full advantage of it, so company makes more off the service.

 

[Raylo]

I certainly DID run through the numbers. You have to use equivalent vehicles to make the comparison valid. I used a Mustang Mach E and a same class Honda CRV.

To recap
Mach E 2.5 kWh per mile @ $0.41/kWh uses 400kWh. Cost for 1000 miles= (1000/2.5) x 0.41 = $164
Honda CRV, 34 MPG @ $3.50, uses 29.4 gallons. Cost for 1000 mile= (1000/34) x 3.50 = $119

If you paid the same amount to make the trip in the Honda that uses 29.4 gallons for the trip as you did in the Mach E, the gas would have had to cost $164/29.4gallons = $5.57 per gallon.

IIRC I used $0.43 earlier and this calc uses $0.41, which I believe is the current EA rate. Still outrageous.

This thread has gone through discussions of how much this matters, but I want to go back to the beginning and question this number. You didn’t give many details of your test case, and when I run the numbers, EA is priced at about the equivalent of $2.50/gallon gasoline. This is cheaper than gas, even for public charging!

First things first, if you use EA a lot, get the $4/mo membership. Then it costs 31¢/kWh.

Here’s how I got my number. I use a factor of 8x to compare. My Mini gets about 4 miles/kWh. A gas Cooper gets about 24MPG. Hence to convert from kWh to gallons (cost wise), multiply by 8.

The number will depend on the two cars you compare so let’s take your example of MachE (2.8) versus CRV (29). This gives a factor of about 10x. So the equivalent cost for the MachE is about $3.10/gallon, which is still cheaper than gas, at least near me.


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs

 

[Raylo]

This is the same sort of nonsense anti-competitive business practice that is endemic here like "family" cell phone plans, cable "bundling", etc. There really isn't anything inherent that makes the services cheaper for the provider in these instances. It is just leverage they use to extract more $$. IMO these practices should be illegal, especially in services that are essentially universal utilities. As noted by admin Domenick everyone doesn't always pay the highest rate. But to avoid it you always have to be working some angle or hustle or bundle or subscription. You can't just go about your business wherever you may roam (someone say roaming fees?) and expect to get treated fairly and have a transparent choice of competing products. I guess that's the "American way".

For high milage customers it may make sense for charging companies to create tiered service levels for customers, which EA kind of does now. For a monthly fee you can get a lower kW rate when charging. Tiering for high use customers will end up making sense if charging 9.995/month and giving those customers a 40-50% reduction off the standard kW rate.
The charging company still makes the money since many of those "subscribers" wont use that much charging, which subsidizes those who use it more. Its a basis for subscription models--majority do not take full advantage of it, so company makes more off the service.

 

[KonaDave]

I have just started looking into EVs for perhaps my next vehicle... the technology is fantastic and improving rapidly... and was surprised and shocked to see what "fueling" costs are at commercial fast charge stations, like Electrify America. Doing a direct comparison of a 1000 mile trip in a Mustang Mach E vs. an equivalent ICE compact SUV like a Honda CRV, the Honda fuel cost 40% less. Why you ask? Because of the absurd high cost of these commercial chargers, that is ~4x what one would pay to charge up at home. So, while I'd love to have an EV and would save $ for my local driving, road trips will be absurdly expensive. I did the math for my test case and that EA fast charge price is the equivalent of $5.60/gallon gasoline. Not sure what the solution might be but for me, for now, getting an EV makes zero financial sense, especially considering the relatively high initial EV purchase prices.

Does anyone here have a sense where this is going and if and how building out the charging infrastructure might bring these costs down? Or is going to be like our situation for broadband services where we just let a few companies essentially have a monopoly and soak us for every penny?

I don't have an idea of where it's going, but believe the costs will come down in time. One thing I would recommend is looking for free chargers. I drove out to Hagerstown a few years back and looked up a fast charging station. Seems I stumbled across 4 fast chargers and all were absolutely free! (behind the municipal building in town). I don't know if they are still free, but I was quite surprised to find it. I love electric and do most (99.9%) of my charging at home on my level 2 charger and have solar panels supplying all my house and car electric needs. Your information is quite shocking about ICE fuel being 40% less. I'm sure which fast charger and area have much to do with that overall cost. Unfortunately, some won't have many options; dependent on the area that they live.

 

[GvilleGuy]

If most of your EV charging is going to be at public DC chargers, then Raylo has a point about electron price vs gas price. I am of the opinion that this pricing might not go down very much in the next five years even with competition, as corporations can sell "look, you only pay $10 to charge your battery vs $40 at the gas pump". Even though most of us know that is not a fair comparison.

But EV owners who have the luxury option of installing their own EVSEs will do so and save money over time, making EVs a viable, cost saving option over ICE. I have 6,700 miles on my Mini SE and have used an EA DC charger exactly 3 times for a few hundred miles of range. All the rest of my miles cost me about $4 per 128 miles (the average range I get from my Mini), way less than the CR-V we own.

 

[NC-EV]

Why is it that forum discussions like this assume that all EV drivers can charge at home? That's a very narrow view of the world and the real estate market. I think this is an important discussion for someone who lives in a condo (and is considered a home owner) or someone who lives in some other multi-unit housing that doesn't allow charging at home. Thank you for pointing out that charging can be so expensive if you cannot charge at home. It seems like the two years of free charging is only worth the purchase price of the car if you know you have a lower cost option that will be available in two years.

 

[Almost Green]

To Raylo, I've just read through this 4 day rant of yours about high priced EV charging stations. All the responders have given very valid responses to help you out. Fact is it costs $$ to move into EV's vs ICE and we need to except that for the time being as this whole conversion is in it's infancy and will take time to develop just like every other technology in the past. Early adopters understand this and accept it. If your not ready to accept it then don't make the jump. Stay with your ICE until costs come down to what you perceive as acceptable. Continuing the rant will not change anything.

 

[Raylo]

That branches off into a whole separate challenge for EVs... how to install chargers for multi-family buildings and on-street parking. And who pays for that? If none of the fed infrastructure bills help, then one would think the local utilities should weigh in, especially since they would profit from the new usage. And maybe there will have to be some condo assessments? It is gonna be interesting.

Why is it that forum discussions like this assume that all EV drivers can charge at home? That's a very narrow view of the world and the real estate market. I think this is an important discussion for someone who lives in a condo (and is considered a home owner) or someone who lives in some other multi-unit housing that doesn't allow charging at home. Thank you for pointing out that charging can be so expensive if you cannot charge at home. It seems like the two years of free charging is only worth the purchase price of the car if you know you have a lower cost option that will be available in two years.

 

[Raylo]

LOL... dude, I don't need "help". And the "rant" is mostly to educate people, many of whom have no idea. I don't share your confidence that this "will work out". If anything, I expect it to only get more costly, anti-competitive, and confusing.

I support the move to EVs. I just hate to see it go the way of the other anti-competitive stuff. IOW it should be as easy and transparent and competitive to refuel an EV on a road trip as an ICE vehicle. It isn't even close and the way things are progressing I am not optimistic.

 

[R P]

I support the move to EVs. I just hate to see it go the way of the other anti-competitive stuff. IOW it should be as easy and transparent and competitive to refuel an EV on a road trip as an ICE vehicle. It isn't even close and the way things are progressing I am not optimistic.

It will get better, with the new 800V fast charging cars. But it will also get more expensive (ie electricity) due to the lack of production and expense of renewables.

 

[Bill Hurt]

One large cost of implementing a charger network that I don't see being discussed yet is the software engineering. As a softare engineer myself I can tell you that if the cost to install a new DC Fast charger is over 150k to purchase and install the hardware, the network operator is not done paying for that station just because everything has been installed.

The software that runs the stations is an ongoing cost. Softare engineers are expensive people to hire. For a company to attract decent softare engineers they need to offer 100k+/yr salaries plus benefits. And from what I see every time I look at a fast charger screen, these things are way way over engineered. They far too complicated making them brittle, and they have far too few quality engineers working on the problem.

The rates of stations being out of service for network issues is completely inexcusable. I can't help but assume that the reason it's happening is because they don't have nearly enough software people working the problem, and the ones they have are totally drowned just keeping the lights on and not able to concentrate on making the network and the station softare more robust.

So my point is that a big part of where the extra cost is going is the expense of daily administration of the network, and the likely huge software engineering expense, which are daily costs that don't go away once the station is installed.

Personally I think one thing the DC Charging market needs is a dumber, cheaper charging network. I want a network of chargers that only needs to communicate with the credit card network to charge me for my consumption. That's it. I don't want and app or an account or network wide consumption reports, or any of that. Nobody expects to preauthorize their Shell station fillup and they don't expect a monthly report from Chevron detailing their gas purchases or any of that stuff, and the cost of adding it to DC fast charging is a driver of both cost and unreliability.

 

[Raylo]

Sure. The technology will be there. The only part that really worries me is the way this seems to be headed to where interstate EV fueling... and maybe even public urban refueling?... will mostly be available from charging "networks" and subscriptions, etc. and what these middlemen mean for customer pricing. The "networks" are really virtual in that the actual power you get will be coming off a utility provided trunk line. If this is the model the prevails costs for drivers will permanently be way higher than they otherwise would be. The days of just pulling off and taking your pick of whichever gas is lowest price will be over. Maybe over time some real competition will develop. We are a mobile nation so it had better.

It will get better, with the new 800V fast charging cars. But it will also get more expensive (ie electricity) due to the lack of production and expense of renewables.

 

[R P]

Sure. The technology will be there. The only part that really worries me is the way this seems to be headed to where interstate EV fueling... and maybe even public urban refueling?... will mostly be available from charging "networks" and subscriptions, etc. and what these middlemen mean for customer pricing. The "networks" are really virtual in that the actual power you get will be coming off a utility provided trunk line. If this is the model the prevails costs for drivers will permanently be way higher than they otherwise would be. The days of just pulling off and taking your pick of whichever gas is lowest price will be over. Maybe over time some real competition will develop. We are a mobile nation so it had better.

Yes, that could be true. Bottom line, it will not be cheaper to "fuel up" your EV,... for several reasons.

 

[Raylo]

Yes, but some of those reasons are unavoidable and acceptable. And some are parasitic and therefore should be avoidable and unacceptable.

Yes, that could be true. Bottom line, it will not be cheaper to "fuel up" your EV,... for several reasons.

 

[AndysComputer]

You are concentrating far too much on the highway driving and fast charging cost.
The reality, even as someone who is retired with time on their hands, is that you will not be using the fast chargers as much as you think you will.
As people have already pointed out, for day to day use, ie within the range of the MachE or whatever EV, you will only be using your home charger and an ICE car typically costs 300% more to run in that situation.

Concentrating on the road trips, as it’s still good to know what they cost, let’s take your 1,000 mile example:

First 200 miles is from your home charger. Not sure what you rate is but US average is 14.1c/kWh so for 80kWh that first 200 miles will cost you $11.28
The final 300 miles to your destination via fast chargers at $0.41 would be $49.20
So to get there would cost roughly $60

To get back using only fast chargers would be
$82.
But if the hotel you are staying at has free charging (and as an EV owner you really should take advantage of that not just for cost but also charging time convenience) then your return journey would be $49.

So a 1,000 mile road trip would cost $109-$142 depending on whether your hotel had free charging or not. So not only does that free charging have a value in excess of $30 it also saves you a charging session worth of time.

So the trip might not cost any more or it might cost you like an extra $25.

Does this mean the fast charging is over priced? I’d say yes. That said, it’s important to remember that gasoline is subsidized via our taxes because the direct military cost and other items are not part of the pump price. If you accounted for it at the pump it would be $1.00-1.20 more per gallon but there’s nothing we can do about that as the government and oil companies like it hidden just the way it is…

Another perception problem is this road trip cost. You did the math and when driving ICE it’s one of the only times we become aware of how much we’re spending as we stop for gas frequently and know how far we’re traveling. The rest of the time we just fill up whenever and don’t count our trips etc.

This is why we make bad financial decisions.
For example someone will buy a pickup truck to carry some things home from the hardware store for projects twice per year instead of simply paying the delivery fee, and the rest of the year guzzle through gas with an unladen truck.

You did the math for your road trip and came to the conclusion you’re worse off vs a CRV but you’re not considering all the other days of the year when you’re not using the DC fast chargers.

Anither is your perception that you can do 1,000 miles with just two 5 minute gas stops and you compare that to say four 20 minute charging sessions.
But the reality is that you need to go to the bathroom and you need to eat and most people do want to stretch their legs. And you charge while doing these things. This is very difficult for people to grasp as they try and directly compare how an ICE car is used and how an EV is used.
To travel 500 miles on your outward leg will take at least 7 hours of driving.
When I was a young guy I would do that trip stopping halfway for gas, the bathroom and to grab a sandwich to eat quickly. My single stop was 20 minutes if I was in a rush.
So the total trip time would be 7h20m.
Now I’m married and not in such a rush anyway last years 4,000 mile road trip on gas shows me what a 500 mile leg looks like in reality:

We drive 2 hours (roughly 140 miles) then my wife wants a break to use the restroom and refill the coffee etc. that break takes 15-20 mins as she’s in no rush.
We drive another couple of hours (covering another 140 miles) and it’s lunch time. We stop for about 50 mins including a 5min has top up.
Back in the car we do another 2 hours (another 140 miles) and she wants to stretch her legs and go the restroom and we have another 15 minute stop.
Then it’s just shy of 90 mins (80 miles) and we’re there.
Total time is about 7 hours 20 mins of driving and another 1 hour 20 mins of stop time.

Once I had figured this out I realized that those 3 stops are my 3 charging stops in the Tesla and I will spend no extra time waiting for charging. That’s when we sold the Land Rover and bought the Tesla. And in reality this is exactly how the timings panned out. The end to end time was about the same, maybe 10 mins more in total in the Tesla but frankly that could be traffic or waiting for food time variance.

But it is *very* difficult to get people to understand this concept.

Make sure you calculate your day to day usage to see where your savings are coming from, there is no cost saving in an EV for road-trips that require the use of DC fast charging.

 

[marshall]

Mach E 2.5 kWh per mile

This number isn't close to the federal government's data of a 36kWh per 100 miles.

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=43602&id=43475

I calculated using the federal government fuel numbers that the equivalent gas price that the Honda would pay at $.41 would be $4.34 a gallon and at the $.31 it would be $3.29 per gallon for a Mach-e.

Clearly, it will cost more to drive the Ford vs the Honda at $.41 (outside of California), but at $.31, the Mach-e is cheaper to drive all along the West coast.

However, I forgot about the annual $150 transportation tax that Washington state adds.
So in Washington state the equivalent gas price per gallon that the Honda pays is $4.70 per gallon at $.41 or $3.65 per gallon at $.31, assuming an annual 12,000 miles per year. So the Ford is still a bit cheaper even if you buy you gas at Costco at $.31.

If you can't charge at home, you would have to be brain-dead not to pay the 4 bucks a month and get the $.31 rate.

For those who can charge at home, paying the 4 bucks a month from May to September makes a lot of sense if you like to take weekend trips.

 

[Raylo]

I am NOT just thinking about my immediate costs. I can "afford" it regardless. I am posing a bigger picture theme here... and not just for highway, perhaps, as city public E infrastructure may also go this route of we are not careful... that has implications for the long run and a big impact on the general economy. If you get it, you get it, if you don't, I guess you don't.

You are concentrating far too much on the highway driving and fast charging cost.
The reality, even as someone who is retired with time on their hands, is that you will not be using the fast chargers as much as you think you will.

 

[Raylo]

I take your point but that 2.5 number comes from published real world highway road test results. City range would be better but that's not what I am comparing here. CRV MPG comes from personal experience which aligns with EPA rating. And I refuse to play that "what if I had a subscription" game.

This number isn't close to the federal government's data of a 36kWh per 100 miles.

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=43602&id=43475

I calculated using the federal government fuel numbers that the equivalent gas price at $.41 would be $4.34 a gallon and at the $.31 it would be $3.29 per gallon for a Mach-e.

If you can't charge at home, you would have to be brain-dead not to pay the 4 bucks a month and get the $.31 rate.

For those who can charge at home, paying the 4 bucks a month from May to September makes a lot of sense if you like to take weekend trips.

 

[R P]

You are concentrating far too much on the highway driving and fast charging cost.
The reality, even as someone who is retired with time on their hands, is that you will not be using the fast chargers as much as you think you will.
As people have already pointed out, for day to day use, ie within the range of the MachE or whatever EV, you will only be using your home charger and an ICE car typically costs 300% more to run in that situation.

I am trying hard not to speak to just my personal situation. I am retired and have owned a BEV for almost 3 years. BUT have yet to pay for a charge on a trip or at home. That however, is very unique to where I live in BC. But even here that is coming to an end, and by this summer, my streak will likely be broken.

In March of 2020, I did a long trip down to CA and AZ. I first costed it out (with plugshare and almost no free fast chargers on my route) if I was taking my EV, and then my ICE vehicle (Crosstrek). The ICE vehicle was far cheaper, so that is what we used for that trip.

So yes, at the moment, home charging is cheap, but like I said that will be going up as well. And trip charging will remain high, and even higher, I believe. So I will keep my ICE car for some time yet. Need it also for off-road and towing my boat.

 

[Esprit1st]

It comes down to being smart about charging. When I'm going on a road trip I plan on where I will charge and calculate ahead of time how much it will cost me.

I am using http://www.ev-charge-cost.com plugging in the numbers from each charging provider and comparing actual costs, since it is hard to compare all the per kWh, per minute, session charge etc.