Repair issues and fixes

[KiwiME]

That was an incredibly easy job (above) having the right tools and a practiced procedure. Cost one mask and 2 hours of time, and I didn't spill a drop.

Because there was not a hint of blackness after 2,000 km, I'm quietly optimistic that the "black oil" issue is not inherent to the design but simply a result of break-in particles circulating and wreaking havoc in the early days.

I'm hoping that with OzKona's input in the next month or two we can establish a set of community-recommended practical oil change distance intervals that will keep control of the situation while the gears settle. It seems that I've passed that high-risk period at 21,000 kms and it should be smooth sailing from now on.

As a minor update, I've spotted something in the Ioniq gearbox photos (posted many weeks ago in this thread) that I realised I had missed earlier, pertaining to the brass-coloured ring visible in this photo below which I had asked the OP about but for which I only received a vague response. There's no question in my mind now that I look at it with a different knowledge base that this is a grounding brush. It means that Hyundai are aware of the "potential" rouge shaft current issue and are paying attention to it. My concern was that stray shaft voltage/currents (generated by the motor's rotor) entering the gearbox via the splined coupling and discharging across the gearbox bearings has been causing the black oil, and at the same time degrading the bearing raceways. Had that been the case I would have still seen traces of that today, and yet there were none.

OzKona's car is at an earlier stage in its life and a slight continued blackness may not be entirely unexpected due to re-circulating early wear particles, but I believe that this issue will diminish with distance.

It's all good news as best as I can see.

 

[hobbit]

Having crested 10K miles recently, still on the factory fill of tranny oil, it's probably time to get in
there and change it. This discussion reminds me a lot of the early pioneering efforts of the Prius
community to realize that the transaxle fluid should be changed far sooner and more often than
the manufacturer says, that Bob Wilson and others were involved in, with samples being sent in
for wear-materials analysis.

Anyway, I'm poking around Amazon for the Votex plugs, and am a little confused. DP007? But
which one, there are like 8 variants?? What's the actual thread size and pitch, presumably what the
"M14 x 1.5" and the like indicates? And is it possible to find "rubberized" washers like my Prius
oil drain had?

Various forum posts and such also turn up people having difficulty finding the Redline oil at
common auto-parts places...

_H*

 

[KiwiME]

Gee, hobbit, given your techno-fandom writings I would have thought you'd have done this long ago!
I had asked Votex about this last year and they didn't respond. I was hoping they had one with a longer M18-1.5 thread because the short thread in cast aluminum makes me nervous. I use 30 ft-lbs on the drain and slightly less on the fill because it goes in lubed and both are slippery SST. The factory spec is higher.

Also, note that they offer a spare washer pack. Regarding the rubber (Dowty) washer I have no experience with these other than in industrial high-pressure hydraulic applications. A washer needs to be soft enough to secure the plug under a relatively low clamping force and I think those are not designed for that purpose.

https://www.amazon.com/Votex-Stainless-Neodymium-Magnet-M18-1-5/dp/B086RQZYZM
(not sure about the "unavailable" mention)

Redline often has to be ordered but there are alternatives such as Royal Purple Synchromax. Any 70W or 70W-75 GL4 with a viscosity of 5.4 to 7.5 cSt@100°C is fine but for the US NE I'd suggest staying on the thin side. Often these are sold as dual-clutch gearbox oils, as is the Hyundai version.

 

[hobbit]

Well, it was winter here as most of those miles were racked up, with a little less motivation for more car
work that wasn't related to putting the hacks back into the *second* Kona, unloading the Prius, figuring
out the roadtrip sleeper berth a bit better... plus, this drivetrain has made absolutely no hint of the Fateful
Noise so far, whereas the previous one did just a little bit once in a while.

If I could figure out how to get Amazon to stop sending me to that stupid "something went
wrong" page with pictures of dogs, the search experience might be a little better...

Now that I learn what a Dowty gasket is, no, that's not what I was thinking of. My Prius drain
washers had a thin layer of some softer black rubber / plastic on both flat surfaces. It wasn't
necessary to "crush" those, I could reuse them and they sealed fine.

I also have a mild question about a stainless plug into an aluminum alloy casing. Isn't that
a recipe for a bit of galvanic peril? Or is it not enough area to matter... the case *will*
get damp sometimes.

_H*

 

[KiwiME]

My current opinion is that the dirty oil and wheel-of-fortune noise are unrelated issues.

The stainless v.s aluminum issue has been raised few times before and all I can suggest is that the area where the threads mate is fully wetted with oil. The washer and plug flange may be more open but I can't say I've heard of any issues.

The magnetic plug is optional at this point in our understanding because we know there is a non-serviceable factory magnet installed, as weak as it may be.

 

[KiwiME]

My current opinion is that the dirty oil and wheel-of-fortune noise are unrelated issues.
The stainless v.s aluminum issue has been raised few times before and all I can suggest is that the area where the threads mate is fully wetted with oil. The washer and plug flange may be more open but I can't say I've heard of any issues.
The magnetic plug is optional at this point in our understanding because we know there is a non-serviceable factory magnet installed, as weak as it may be.

Scratch all of that, I've changed my mind, lol. We need the added magnet or two. The evidence from the Polish owner that rebuilt his own Ioniq gearbox due to bearing roughness (failure) leads me to think the the stock magnet is not effective.

Q) Was the magnet saturated with metal debris?
A) Hello, the magnet was without filings.

Potential reasons are that aside from the stock magnet being ceramic (very weak) it's in a poor location where oil turbulence could blast off any particles lucky enough to stick. At highway speeds the conditions inside the gearbox would be like standing on the beach during a Category 5 storm.

 

[rpark]

Changed at 3000km. The metal particles in the fluid reminded me of metallic car paint being mixed before it was sprayed.

 

[electriceddy]

Changed at 3000km. The metal particles in the fluid reminded me of metallic car paint being mixed before it was sprayed.View attachment 16595

Good catch, and early too, well done. Its too bad when they changed the style that they didn't include a "facelift" for the drivetrain as well

 

[KiwiME]

I wrote a FAQ to answer questions I get asked 'frequently' on the various forums.

 

[navguy12]

I wrote a FAQ to answer questions I get asked 'frequently' on the various forums.

Well done and thanks for this excellent executive summary.

 

[Yuri Niro]

A couple of weeks ago I’ve changed the oil in the gear reducer of my 2018 Niro EV with 88,000 km on the odometer. The previous one was done at 55,000 km. The oil was dirtier than KiwiME’s, it was transparent during draining but not any more in the jar. Certainly no evident metal particles could be seen. I’ve used Genuine Hyundai Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid MTF 70w replacing Liqui Moly Top Tec MTF 5300 70W-75W, which at temperatures lower than -10 degrees Celius made the gear reducer produce a whining noise. The fill and drain plugs were replaced by Votex magnet plugs, thanks to KiwiME recommendation these were delivered by Amazon this winter.
My suggestion: to change the oil at 1.5, 5 and 10 thousand km and then stick to the 50 thousand km, the generally accepted oil change interval I was also abiding by when taking care of Toyota hybrid transmissions

 

[KiwiME]

Thanks for posting the feedback. Can you you clarify if the magnetic plugs had been installed over that last 33,000 km or have you just done that on this oil change? My hope is that these better magnet(s) will better retain fresh wear particles before they are repeatedly crushed and turn the oil black.

Interesting comments about the viscosity. Certainly in very cold regions viscosity becomes an important consideration and a very few owners have reported whining with even the factory oil. I'm not certain how damaging the whining is but I think it may be over a long period, resulting in erosion of gear tooth faces.

 

[KiwiME]

I stumbled across a Spanish EV forum in my continued daily pursuit of the WoM (wheel of misfortune) noise and found this interesting post by a Kona owner. My 3 years of high school Spanish in SoCal is doing nothing for me and this is the best Google translate could make of it:

3 Mar 2022 from Malian:
Since Monday of last week I have the Kona immobilized by order of Hyundai at the dealership. When the car passed the second revision, he returned to comment on the noise that he had had for months in the vehicle transmission. It seems that the reason is a machining failure in the reducer that produces an axial load on the shaft of the electric motor, which produces a significant deterioration of its bearings.

This fault also appears in the Kia Eniro since they share the same set, and what follows is that the poorly machined lot has been distributed. Hyundai ordered the dealer to carry out some tests and immediately immobilize the vehicle. According to the dealer, the entire set must be replaced, and because Spain is not available today, there is no expected date of arrival of the set.

Has any colleague who has a Kona or Eniro gone through this situation? If the answer is positive, how long has it taken for the set to arrive?
...
The noise is identical, they are the motor bearings that are destroyed.
According to what I have been told, the reason is a faulty machining of a batch of reducers that causes an axial effort on the motor shaft and causes the bearings to break.
First Hyundai orders the oil to be changed in the reducer, then if the noise is not much, change the reducer but the damage has already been done and sooner or later the engine must be changed.
It is a failure of a batch/s of poorly machined reducers and shared by some batches of Hyundai and Kia.

I've joined the forum and will follow this post as it unfolds. I'm keeping an open mind but despite some plausibility I'm quite skeptical of the root cause offered because the problem is still affecting Hyundai/Kia EVs to this day. There did not seem to be a burst of repair activity around certain production dates as we saw with other QA issues such as the coolant pump leakage, rear brake clicking, steering wheel noise and even the traction battery recall.

Additionally the TSB released just last month doesn't directly check for this defect, nevermind allow correction with a shim between the motor and gearbox. We've rarely heard of a dealer attempting a fix with an oil change as suggested, perhaps once if I recall.

Another point I'll emphasis (also raised in the thread) is that only a very small number of H/K EVs have been affected by the noise, well under 1%. But as we are learning, every single example produces black oil in short order - an abnormal situation in itself.

 

[Yuri Niro]

Can you you clarify if the magnetic plugs had been installed over that last 33,000 km or have you just done that on this oil change?

I’ve done it on this oil change. This winter was quite cold here and changing oil in my unheated garage would have made me whine

 

[KiwiME]

I’ve done it on this oil change...

Thanks, Yuri, that's valuable information ... that the oil blackness is ongoing with the originally-installed magnet. Somewhat expected I suppose.

All eyes now shift over to OzKona as we wait for the 10,000 km oil change assisted by double-overhead Votex magnets. No pressure though, I'm very patient!
Meanwhile I've ordered two of these pretty DeeFill brand plugs along with one for my ICE car engine. I'll drop one into a sample of gear oil for a month to see if the magnet is loosened chemically. The one for the ICE will add temperature cycling, although I almost never drive it these days.
Aside from providing a second source, the DeeFill thread is 5mm longer than the Votex, not essential but may reduce the chances of stripping.

 

[OzKona]

All eyes now shift over to OzKona as we wait for the 10,000 km oil change assisted by double-overhead Votex magnets. No pressure though, I'm very patient!

.....Meanwhile I've ordered two of these pretty DeeFill brand plugs ....
View attachment 16665

Under 300km to go now. I have the two sample jars ready to send off fresh and used fluid for comparative analysis. Will post a report based on visuals as soon as I do the change and follow up with the analysis report when I get it.

I like the plugs.

 

[KonaAU]

I’m due to take delivery of a new 2022 Kona EV Highlander Extended range real soon now ‍ as it was dropped off at Port Kembla late April and is currently with the Dealer.

I have ordered a couple of magnetic drain plugs and see two options ahead of me.

1. Replace the filler plug with a magnetic plug and change the oil after 1500km or
2. Replace both drain and filler plugs re-using the oil with some top-up. And change the oil after 1500km.

I think option 1 would be sufficient and the easiest but I’m open to suggestions.

So I received my new toy and this weekend I set about to replace the filler plug with a Votex magnetic.
While I expected a bit of oil to leak from the filler when I removed the plug I was surprised with a gush before I could get the new plug in.
Probably because I had the car up on ramps....

So after cleaning up the oil that didn't make it into the container, the oil I had collected looked cloudy and smelt awful so I decided to do a complete change the next day.

NOTE: The car has done 142km. The Votex plug was in the filler for a total of 5km. Photos below.

Is the reduction gear assembled with some grease that taints the oil?

Looking forward to OZKona's oil change ... no pressure

 

[KiwiME]

Probably because I had the car up on ramps....
... and smelt awful so I decided to do a complete change the next day.
NOTE: The car has done 142km. The Votex plug was in the filler for a total of 5km. Is the reduction gear assembled with some grease that taints the oil?

Everything looks completely as expected for 142 kms and even just 5km for the magnet. Gear oil generally smells a bit musky, no problem there, and it's still partly clear. The black-tainted colour is due to steel wear particles being ground down to dust, not assembly grease.

What oil did you use as a replacement and did you manage to get the right amount in?
Yes, ramps are not ideal for setting the oil level, lol! I drain it while on ramps but then drive it off and add a measured amount from empty while the car is lifted only on the left side.
Despite the fuss, you've taken advantage of this golden opportunity to minimise damage to the gearbox from new. I think you're the first to do this. There are one or two other owners with new Konas who are planning to do this but none have reported back yet.

Thanks for posting the pics too! I hope you don't mind if I use your photos to remind these other owners that there is a benefit to carrying out this work!

 

[electriceddy]

So I received my new toy and this weekend I set about to replace the filler plug with a Votex magnetic.
While I expected a bit of oil to leak from the filler when I removed the plug I was surprised with a gush before I could get the new plug in.
Probably because I had the car up on ramps....

So after cleaning up the oil that didn't make it into the container, the oil I had collected looked cloudy and smelt awful so I decided to do a complete change the next day.

NOTE: The car has done 142km. The Votex plug was in the filler for a total of 5km. Photos below.

Is the reduction gear assembled with some grease that taints the oil?

Looking forward to OZKona's oil change ... no pressure

View attachment 16696 View attachment 16697

Smart move to change that early, too bad this subject had not been properly investigated when I purchased mine, it could have saved a lot of undo wear within the 8700 km I drove it with the original oil.
Oh well- better late then never or following the Hyundai maintenance schedule

 

[KonaAU]

Everything looks completely as expected for 142 kms and even just 5km for the magnet. Gear oil generally smells a bit musky, no problem there, and it's still partly clear. The black-tainted colour is due to steel wear particles being ground down to dust, not assembly grease.

What oil did you use as a replacement and did you manage to get the right amount in?
Yes, ramps are not ideal for setting the oil level, lol! I drain it while on ramps but then drive it off and add a measured amount from empty while the car is lifted only on the left side.
Despite the fuss, you've taken advantage of this golden opportunity to minimise damage to the gearbox from new. I think you're the first to do this. There are one or two other owners with new Konas who are planning to do this but none have reported back yet.

Thanks for posting the pics too! I hope you don't mind if I use your photos to remind these other owners that there is a benefit to carrying out this work!

I've rebuilt gear boxes in the past and this oil didn't smell the same, sickly smell.

I used Penrite 70W-75W. I raised the right side to drain, off the ramps to refill, did a bit of a flush (100ml) with fresh oil to hopefully further clean out the old oil.
Refilled with at least 1.1 litres.

Old oil is black. I'll take another photo with a light behind. Feel free to use my photos.