Budget Battery Capacity Readout

[bpratt]

I like the 3rd option best. Did you mean .csb or .csp in option 1?

 

[MrFixit]

I like the 3rd option best. Did you mean .csb or .csp in option 1?

Argh, I can't keep these file extensions straight because they have no meaning to me !
I [think] I fixed them in the previous post...

 

[vicw]

We released sensors on 3/2 (Post #44), and on 3/9 (Post #100).
We have a few more identified, but have not yet sent them out.
If anyone has a request(s) for specific sensors, let us know, and we may be able to hunt them down.

I updated the app with no problem.

This is a nitpicky point, but I just noticed an oddity on the last item on Page 2 of the Dashboard. It is apparently intended to display "Cell MaxSOC B", and the data looks right, but the label is shown as "Cell MinSOC B".

The Item editor indicates it is targeting the correct Sensor, but that also displays the wrong title, and I don't see a way to correct it.

 

[MrFixit]

This is a nitpicky point, but I just noticed an oddity on the last item on Page 2 of the Dashboard. It is apparently intended to display "Cell MaxSOC B", and the data looks right, but the label is shown as "Cell MinSOC B".

You are right !
There is a "Long Name" and a "Short Name" associated with each parameter. I have a typo on the Short Name with that one...

But, now that you mention it, it seems like the Min and Max are also reversed for both (ie: the 'min' value should always be less than the 'max' value, right?)... Let me look at that. I will get them sorted out when we release the next set.

Thanks

 

[Agzand]

So I managed to read battery capacity using Vgate. Mine got 51.28 Ah, it is a late 2018 model with 17.5k miles (80-90% EV miles). I think my car is on the trendline in the spreadsheet or just a bit better than average. I will add my data point to the spreadsheet once I collect my build date later today. Thank you everyone involved in cracking this code!

At this rate I will hit 75% in 10 years and 70k miles, but I hope degradation will slow down with battery aging.

 

[vicw]

Regarding the potential parasitic drain from the 12v battery with the Vgate iCar Pro BTE 4.0 Auto Sleep feature disabled, using the procedure that @lincomatic provided in Post #42, I disabled the feature on mine a couple of days ago. Since then, I've accumulated approximately 24 idle hours, equivalent to a full day, and there was an accumulated -0.22v loss during those periods. In comparison, I checked back on 9 idle days prior to plugging in the adapter, and they averaged -0.05v loss overall, almost all of them in the -0.03v to -0.06v range, with a single low of -0.01v and a high of -0.08v. All in all, it seems that the Vgate has probably added an additional drain of about -0.17v loss per day. I know the single 24 hr sample may not be representative, so I'll continue leaving it installed a bit longer to see if it continues with that pattern.

I've had an Antigravity Battery Tracker installed throughout both periods, so that represents an existing parasitic drain included in all of the measurements, but the difference is represented by the Vgate device. I was also surprised to discover today, that I had not disconnected the Car Saver app on my phone after using and exiting the app, and it had remained connected to the Vgate for over 2 hours before I checked my phone battery status, and saw it it still active and connected, so there was some unintentional battery drain on my smartphone as well.

Disabling the Auto Sleep feature is certainly a convenience, but I think that after I collect more data on the drain, I'll pull the Vgate whenever I anticipate long gaps between use. I just received an Autel AP200 today, now awaiting Autel to Register it for the beta, and it will be interesting to see how effective the Auto Sleep feature on that device will be in comparison to the workaround on the Vgate.

 

[Agzand]

So I managed to read battery capacity using Vgate. Mine got 51.28 Ah, it is a late 2018 model with 17.5k miles. I think my car is on the trendline in the spreadsheet or just a bit better than average. I will add my data point to the spreadsheet once I collect my build date later today. Thank you everyone involved in cracking this code!

At this rate I will hit 75% in 10 years and 70k miles, but I hope degradation will slow down with battery aging.

So I did some comparisons with BEVs (Tesla Model S/Chevy Bolt) and at similar mileage Clarity shows about twice battery degredation (6.75% vs. 3-3.5%). This has to be expected since a PHEV battery goes through deeper charge cycles daily in comparison to a long range BEV.

Now the question is how Honda is going to manage degradation? Will they gradually release the top/bottom buffer to maintain EV range or they keep the same ration as a buffer permanently.

 

[MrFixit]

So I did some comparisons with BEVs (Tesla Model S/Chevy Bolt)

How does the Tesla / Bolt warranty compare to the Clarity? Keep in mind that the Clarity warranty is based on this very parameter. I assume the others will also have a warranty based on a measure of capacity because there are too many uncontrollable variables with range.

 

[Agzand]

How does the Tesla / Bolt warranty compare to the Clarity? Keep in mind that the Clarity warranty is based on this very parameter. I assume the others will also have a warranty based on a measure of capacity because there are too many uncontrollable variables with range.

I think in PZEV states most manufacturers offer 8/10 years and 150k miles, in other states 8 years and 100k miles. The warranty kicks in if battery capacity drops below 70%, however this is 70% of the original usable capacity. For example Honda can reprogram the car at 100k miles and release remaining buffer, restoring original range partially. By 150k miles the car will still have more than 70% capacity but much smaller buffer. After that the car is still drivable but with significantly reduced EV range.

Few cars will hit the warranty threshold unless there is a manufacturing defect in the battery pack. In addition modular packs like Clarity and Bolt or BMW i3 can be repaired by replacing a single module that behaves badly. With Tesla repairs are more complicated because the pack modules are much larger and the cooling circuit is embedded.

I think the average trend for Tesla Model S indicates 10% degradation at 100-150k miles. With Model 3 degradation appears to be faster (Car and Driver had 7% degradation in one year, worse than my Clarity). It also depends on number of DC charging cycles.

My other car is a 2018 BMW i3 94ah REX and I bought it used. It is 6 months older than Clarity and has a bit more miles (22.5k miles). It shows insignificant battery degradation (less than 2%). The 2014-2016 models with 60 Ah battery on the other hand show significant battery degradation up to 30% with significant number of modules replaced under warranty.

 

[MrFixit]

You seemed to be contending that the Clarity is doing worse than the Tesla / Bolt.
There are obviously mixed results, and it seems too early to draw conclusions.

The warranty on the Clarity is 8/100K or 10/150K at (2/3) 66.7% of original capacity.
I was simply wondering what the failure threshold was on the Tesla / Bolt. They could also presumably play games with any excess capacity if necessary.

 

[DucRider]

The warranty on the Clarity is 8/100K or 10/150K at (2/3) 66.7% of original capacity.
I was simply wondering what the failure threshold was on the Tesla / Bolt. They could also presumably play games with any excess capacity if necessary.

Not sure what you mean by "excess capacity". The Honda warranty is for the total pack capacity. 55.1 Ah translates to the 17 kWh total pack energy. The warranty doesn't mention nor relate directly to range nor the useable portion of the pack.

Teslas current warranties are 70% for 8 years or 100K/120K/150K miles depending on model.
The Bolt is 60% is 8yr/100K

Early Teslas had all degradation specifically excluded from the battery warranty - only total failure was covered.

 

[MrFixit]

Not sure what you mean by "excess capacity". The Honda warranty is for the total pack capacity. 55.1 Ah translates to the 17 kWh total pack energy

That's true.

Reducing the buffers could theoretically boost range in the face of a degraded battery.
But if the 55 Ah is truly the total capacity of the battery from 0% to 100% then changing the buffers has no impact on 'capacity'.

On the other hand, suppose the 55 Ah represents what Honda declared to be the 'usable' capacity of the battery (say, from 15% to 90% or similar). Then, they could theoretically push the buffers and gain a little more capacity (of course this comes at the expense of increasing the rate of degradation with less buffer space).

Do we really know which it is? Is the 55 the flat out capacity (0-100) or is it the 'usable' buffered capacity?

 

[Landshark]

The Honda warranty is for the total pack capacity. 55.1 Ah translates to the 17 kWh total pack energy.

Isn’t that just a simple formula using stated Ah x nominal voltage?

Capacity, measured in Ah, is the amount of charge current the battery can accept over a period of time. That amount becomes less and less as the battery ages. If the high and low end charging voltage limits were to be modified, a “degraded” battery would be capable of accepting addition charging current.

 

[DucRider]

That's true.

Reducing the buffers could theoretically boost range in the face of a degraded battery.
But if the 55 Ah is truly the total capacity of the battery from 0% to 100% then changing the buffers has no impact on 'capacity'.

On the other hand, suppose the 55 Ah represents what Honda declared to be the 'usable' capacity of the battery (say, from 15% to 90% or similar). Then, they could theoretically push the buffers and gain a little more capacity (of course this comes at the expense of increasing the rate of degradation with less buffer space).

Do we really know which it is? Is the 55 the flat out capacity (0-100) or is it the 'usable' buffered capacity?

The Clarity packs are 84 cells in series giving a nominal voltage of ~ 311 V
Interesting that the EPA docs Honda submits list the pack as 54.6 Ah and not the stated/tested 55 Ah.
https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=40312&flag=1
(see pg 11)

In any case, 55 Ah x 311V gets you in the 17 kWh neighborhood and not the lower ~13 kWh that is "useable".

 

[Adi]

25,000 miles, honda clarity 2018, used the
Vgate-LPHUS iCar Pro Wi-Fi OBD2 Scanner
with car scanner app
49.5

 

[MrFixit]

@Adi

Thanks for joining in !

If you would like to participate, @Danks has created a shared spreadsheet where you can enter your vehicle information here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OQIpT_YiGp9N-vnBOiSz96C2I/edit#gid=1710145002

 

[bpratt]

25,000 miles, honda clarity 2018, used the
Vgate-LPHUS iCar Pro Wi-Fi OBD2 Scanner
with car scanner app
49.5

The Cell MinSOC and MaxSOC are reversed. The byte in Min should be 75 and Max should be 73:
Also, I changed the Dashboard Batt Cap to 0.00, Batt VoltsB to 0.0 and Cell MinSOC B to 0.0

 

[MrFixit]

The Cell MinSOC and MaxSOC are reversed

Yes, see Post #184... Will be fixed in next release.

 

[MrFixit]

All:

Here is a new release of the Car Scanner file set... This supersedes the 03/09 set in Post #100.
We have added some new sensor information, enhanced the default dashboard, and separated the individual cell voltages from the rest of the sensors to remove clutter from the main release.

Now there are 3 files attached:

1. Full backup which includes all Clarity sensors (except the individual cell voltages), and an enhanced dashboard.

• 2021-03-23 12-56-11.cbz

2. A custom PID set containing just the sensors (except the individual cell voltages)

• claritypids 032321.csp

3. A custom PID set containing JUST the 168 individual cell voltages

• claritypids_indivcells 032321.csp

The full backup contains this set of dashboards:



If you like these dashboards, we recommend that you restore the entire backup set.

If you have your own dashboard and just want the new sensors, you can just load the sensors, but BE AWARE that when loading new sensors, all of your dashboard associations will be lost, and you will have to re-connect each entity to the appropriate sensor. This is due to the way that Car Scanner has mechanized it's custom PID import / export functionality.

New sensors that have been included since the last release include:

• Battery Module Temperature Sensors (7)
• Brake switch, and Hydraulic Pressure
• Odometer
• Total HV Battery Current
• Fuel Gauge
• Brake Pedal, Master Cylinder, and Slave Cylinder Strokes
• Maintenance Minder (Days until service for Items A, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, and 8)

As usual, any feedback, comments, and suggestions are always welcome.

Thanks
@MrFixit , @lincomatic

 

[bpratt]

Thank you again MrFixit. It looks like the indivcells took a lot of work to create.
So if I want to replace what I now have with the new .cbz and want to also add the indivcells.csp what is the best approach to do that?