12V battery

[KiwiME]

No, I hadn't seen the other comment about the Aerovironment. Mine doesn't act that way - it always charges just fine. But every month or two, with nothing special going on and the Kona fully charged, it gets into this fight with the car.

Perhaps better to pick data from days when the EVSE is behaving.
The outcome from the 13th onwards, 4 of the 5 graphs, is grossy affected by drama inflicted by the Aerovironment EVSE and so analysing charging behaviour for the 12V battery is unnecessarily complicated.
To better analyse this IMO you should (1) make sure the 12V battery is properly charged (use a 12V battery charger {with (-) on the chassis ground} or Utility mode for several hours. And (2) stick to the portable unit for a week and gather some clean BM2 data with the same useful annotations. Don't worry about the IBS just yet, it might be just fine.

 

[Toolworker]

Tool worker as you suspect your 12V battery is fried. Your experience mimics mine almost exactly, I was experiencing pretty much monthly dead batteries until the summer when the low voltage was finally affecting the car even while driving. My dealer finally gave me a new battery 6 months after I took delivery of the new Kona and I have yet to jump start my car in the past 4 months. That is a personal best

The battery has tested good twice, including last week after half a dozen deep discharges.

Nevertheless, I have pounded on Hyundai via the 800 number and they will now get authorization to swap the battery - not because I think it's the problem (though I hope I'm wrong) but because it's the one thing to try that won't involve leaving the car again, which is a PITA since they have a month's wait for a loaner.

 

[Toolworker]

Here's something I haven't seen before. My Kona EV was plugged into the Aerovironment EVSE, a situation that has created many entertaining graphs in the past, so I offer this more for amusement than for any possible edification.



The car was plugged into the Aerovironment EVSE from the evening of Nov. 30 until it was driven at 2 pm on Dec. 2. The car is programmed to charge from 9 pm to 10 am.

This is what it looked like from the EVSE's side:


The car had the battery recall last month.

 

[KiwiME]

On the face of it, it appears that the Kona has increased the ABS charge frequency to hourly, to make up for the overnight beating laid down by the Aerovironment, but only after the EVSE "let go" at 10am.

That additional charging carried on past the normal period during the drive from 2pm (2 Dec). In normal circumstances it would have only charged for the first 1/2 hour then sat at ~13.0 V for the remainder.

Overall, the aux battery looks to be holding up quite well and the IBS and BMS appear to working as we might expect.

 

[Toolworker]

On the face of it, it appears that the Kona has increased the ABS charge frequency to hourly, to make up for the overnight beating laid down by the Aerovironment, but only after the EVSE "let go" at 10am.

Your honor, in defense of my Aerovironment client on this charge of assault and - er - battery, I submit the following evidence:

Around 4 pm on the afternoon of the 4th, the vehicle in question was driven, and subsequently plugged into the Hyundai 120v EVSE cord. It again began charging at 21:00, as controlled by the vehicle. During this period, the 12v battery was held at perhaps 14.8v, as it was during the Aerovironment's 1:44 of charging on Nov. 30.



At the completion of the charging to 80%, around 5 am, there commenced an "overnight beating," to use the prosecutor's inflammatory characterization. It continued until the 10 am end of the programmed charging period. Apart from the short spikes on the earlier graphs, the 12v decline was almost identical to that during the beating allegedly administered by my client, the Aerovironment, days earlier. But, your honor, in this instance my client has an unshakable alibi - it was not plugged into the vehicle.

In fact, the common element in all instances is the vehicle itself. Clearly, the car is beating its own battery! [Jury gasps.]

Your honor, I move to dismiss the - er - charges.

Edit:

... but only after the EVSE "let go" at 10am.

Again, to clarify, my EVSE client was not programmed for charging times. It is the Kona that is programmed to charge between 9 pm and 10 am. The latest 12v charging algorithm apparently takes this into account.

 

[KiwiME]

While the portable EVSE was charging from 21:00 to about 05:00 it's unusual that it kept the 12V system at 14.8 V for the duration, additionally checking something at 30 min, then every hour. It must have either thought the aux was badly discharged, or is restarting the charge sequence for some reason which will re-initiate the aux charging period. My money is on the latter because the aux battery seemed pretty well charged at the start.
Normally it would be 14.8 V for the first 30 min, subsequently 13.0 V, then after 05:00 we should only see the aux battery open circuit voltage until the next ABS event.

The subsequent 30 min drops till 10:00 are just as weird and I'll grant certainly does match the prima facie behaviour exhibited by the accused Aerovironment. Is there any activity from the app that occurs at 30 min intervals? It seems to be processing the sequence similar to what happens when the J1772 is plugged in.

One likely difference between the portable EVSE and the Aerovironment is that the former will not care about a step by step procedure at start of charging, it will respond immediately to any request from the car (simply the resistance value placed on the CP line to the ground wire) without requiring any prior step be completed first. That might be why the Aero sometimes fails to start, it's just more pedantic.

The nearly perfect timing of the disturbances do suggest that something related to timers may be the root cause here. Perhaps a reset of the media unit might be an idea, given that this is what kicks off charging based on time. On another traction charge night, perhaps log off the app, if that's possible? I don't have the app so have no idea how it works.

 

[Toolworker]

The nearly perfect timing of the disturbances do suggest that something related to timers may be the root cause here. Perhaps a reset of the media unit might be an idea, given that this is what kicks off charging based on time. On another traction charge night, perhaps log off the app, if that's possible? I don't have the app so have no idea how it works.

Thanks for the ideas. The infotainment system has been updated twice (last month unfortunately with the terrible new radio interface), so that reset has happened.

Sometimes when I open the app it says it's refreshed some time earlier the same day, so possibly it does wake the car up periodically, or randomly. So I did log out of the app the other night, and observed the same behavior overnight - no 12v charging during the charge period. FWIW a 12v charge had just started at 9 pm and was cut off.

When I logged back into the app around 11:05 am, the main screen said "Last updated 10:47 am today," although the data on the screen was null (0%, 0 miles, not plugged in). I wonder if a Bluelink server pings the car ever half hour or so, but doesn't update the app's data. I should try to update the app while near the car and see if it visibly wakes up.

Then I tried removing the charge timing altogether, so the car would always be willing to accept a charge. Overnight, it charged the 12v battery every hour or so.

This morning at 8, I set timed charging to begin at 9 am. At that time it stopped the 12v charging and resumed beating the 12v battery down. I will now unplug the charge cord and expect it to resume normal behavior.

One likely difference between the portable EVSE and the Aerovironment is that the former will not care about a step by step procedure at start of charging, it will respond immediately to any request from the car (simply the resistance value placed on the CP line to the ground wire) without requiring any prior step be completed first. That might be why the Aero sometimes fails to start, it's just more pedantic.

I prefer to think of my client as a more sensitive soul.

This is all in the context of an intermittent, repeated dead 12v battery. It appeared to be an interaction with the EVSE - although different responses to different EVSEs - and I still think that is the case.

Are we agreed that this behavior - the interaction between the EVSE cord and timed charging leading to suspension of 12v charging - is abnormal?

But last month there was one dead 12v battery with the car unplugged. Unfortunately the battery monitor was removed for the recall appointment the next day, so no data.

 

[electriceddy]

Thanks for the ideas. The infotainment system has been updated twice (last month unfortunately with the terrible new radio interface), so that reset has happened.

Sometimes when I open the app it says it's refreshed some time earlier the same day, so possibly it does wake the car up periodically, or randomly. So I did log out of the app the other night, and observed the same behavior overnight - no 12v charging during the charge period. FWIW a 12v charge had just started at 9 pm and was cut off.

When I logged back into the app around 11:05 am, the main screen said "Last updated 10:47 am today," although the data on the screen was null (0%, 0 miles, not plugged in). I wonder if a Bluelink server pings the car ever half hour or so, but doesn't update the app's data. I should try to update the app while near the car and see if it visibly wakes up.

Then I tried removing the charge timing altogether, so the car would always be willing to accept a charge. Overnight, it charged the 12v battery every hour or so.

This morning at 8, I set timed charging to begin at 9 am. At that time it stopped the 12v charging and resumed beating the 12v battery down. I will now unplug the charge cord and expect it to resume normal behavior.I prefer to think of my client as a more sensitive soul.

This is all in the context of an intermittent, repeated dead 12v battery. It appeared to be an interaction with the EVSE - although different responses to different EVSEs - and I still think that is the case.

Are we agreed that this behavior - the interaction between the EVSE cord and timed charging leading to suspension of 12v charging - is abnormal?

But last month there was one dead 12v battery with the car unplugged. Unfortunately the battery monitor was removed for the recall appointment the next day, so no data.

Question (for those of us without the BM2 app), does the indicator light come on (the one under the hyundai logo) on those spike top ups as well as the ring light?

 

[KiwiME]

Are we agreed that this behavior - the interaction between the EVSE cord and timed charging leading to suspension of 12v charging - is abnormal?

I don't think it's abnormal because the BMS is unlikely to be refined enough to transparently integrate an existing task with a new task. I think the firmware design would be very conservative for critical functions such as a BMS, noting Hyundai is not risk-taking, cutting-edge Tesla. Charging the traction battery on schedule would be a higher priority than charging the aux battery. Once initiated by the media center timer, I assume the BMS would cancel any existing task, reassess the situation from ground zero and commence as required. So, working correctly it would cancel an existing aux charging event, proceed to charge the traction battery and concurrently charge the aux battery for 30 minutes -- with no understanding of the immediate history -- other than if there was a flag raised for additional aux charging past 30 min.
The spikes while the Aero attempts to start charging the car is that of both sides assessing the situation from scratch. The gap between attempts is long enough that I suspect that it's the Kona that is determining that 'wait' period. The impatient EVSE (with all due respect to the accused) would be unlikely to wait such a long time (an hour) to try again.

I have an appointment on Monday for my 2nd service, 2 years, 16,000 kms. I have four campaigns accumulated and the latest (BMS) one prompted the (thankfully) pedantic service lady to phone the importer to question why they told customers that dealers would "contact owners" to schedule the update. She rightly told them that there are many Hyundai campaigns every month and dealers have no time to understand the priority and call each affected customer. (I did survey NZ owners on FB and found that 77% had indeed been contacted by their dealers for an appointment. I was not one of them.)
I'm going to leave the BM2 in place because I think the need to understand if they damage my aux battery by taking too long on the updates is a higher priority than the chance of them seeing it and logging it in their records as an "unauthorised" customer modification.

Question (for those of us without the BM2 app), does the indicator light come on (the one under the hyundai logo) on those spike top ups as well as the ring light?

I'd be surprised, but I don't know. The BM2 logs every 2 minutes and so catching spikes is not something it's good at.

 

[Toolworker]

Are we agreed that this behavior - the interaction between the EVSE cord and timed charging leading to suspension of 12v charging - is abnormal?

I don't think it's abnormal because the BMS is unlikely to be refined enough to transparently integrate an existing task with a new task.

Let me rephrase.

Does anyone else who has had the recent recall observe this pattern of suspending 12v charging and drawing down the 12v battery during the timed part-peak charging period when the EVSE is plugged in but the high voltage battery is not being charged?

​

The pattern is shown above. The programmed charging period is 21:00 to 10:00. HV charging completed around 4:45 on 12-5. The Hyundai EVSE cord is plugged in.

 

[Bob Long]

Question (for those of us without the BM2 app), does the indicator light come on (the one under the hyundai logo) on those spike top ups as well as the ring light?

Ours both come on (frequently) when the car is being heated up during cold mornings here in Norway. Strangely enough the one inside the logo came on several times when parked in our drive and not plugged in.
We went for a drive today using the wipers, both front and back and the air conditioning. After advice from several members we now leave the car switched on in “Ready” mode rather than switching the car off when parked for short periods. Not sure why the yellow light comes on frequently when the 12v battery is supposed to be topped up. It never shows on screen that the Battery Saver+ Was used.

 

[KiwiME]

Here's something to consider:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.p...enders-may-disrupt-mg-zs-ev-car-charging.html

 

[navguy12]

I'm going to leave the BM2 in place because I think the need to understand if they damage my aux battery by taking too long on the updates is a higher priority than the chance of them seeing it and logging it in their records as an "unauthorised" customer modification.

Please let us know how this works out.

 

[KiwiME]

Please let us know how this works out.

So, today at 16,000 km I had a year's worth of firmware updates applied today and a 24 month/30,000 km service. The first BMS update is skipped and there is the latest one plus another for something else, I'm unsure what.
Here's what the BM2 revealed as to how much of a bashing the aux battery received. It looks like it held up well to the 10:00 to 11:40 update process but you can see that there's no question that it's under stress during this time and who knows at what reduced voltage things turn pear-shaped. It does appear that they had put the car in Run mode for 10 min beforehand as I understand the TSB dictates, referring to the pulse at 10am and/or possibly the one at 9am. When I picked up the car at 12:30 it was on a 25kW Delta EVSE and was up to 82% (from 59 at drop-off). You can see that the aux battery was charging for nearly an hour prior and initially current-limited 11:50-12:00, meaning it was taking in more current than the LDC could provide.

The service included a brake fluid change and they billed me for a litre so I'm assuming they really did flush the system out and that might explain the first part of the graph. I was happy to see that they hadn't spilt any fluid around the reservoir filler but there was a drop on the plastic cover over the heat pump valves, easily cleaned off. I'd guess they use a machine to force-feed fluid to the MC so they can concurrently raise the car on the lift to get to the four bleed screws.

I was also supposed to get the new HV fuse campaign applied but they said there were no parts available in the country and 44 Konas in total were affected in NZ. According to the repair sheet the fuse change is to resolve poor AC performance, an issue I don't seem to have. No doubt the brake system campaign will show up soon as well but it wasn't available today.

 

[electriceddy]

So, today at 16,000 km I had a year's worth of firmware updates applied today and a 24 month/30,000 km service. The first BMS update is skipped and there is the latest one plus another for something else, I'm unsure what.
Here's what the BM2 revealed as to how much of a bashing the aux battery received. It looks like it held up well to the 10:00 to 11:40 update process but you can see that there's no question that it's under stress during this time and who knows at what reduced voltage things turn pear-shaped. It does appear that they had put the car in Run mode for 10 min beforehand as I understand the TSB dictates, referring to the pulse at 10am. When I picked up the car at 12:30 it was on a 25kW Delta EVSE and was up to 82% (from 59 at drop-off). You can see that the aux battery was charging for nearly an hour prior and initially current-limited 11:50-12:00, meaning it was taking in more current than the LDC could provide.

The service included a brake fluid change and they billed me for a litre so I'm assuming they really did flush the system out and that might explain the first part of the graph. I was happy to see that they hadn't spilt any fluid around the reservoir filler but there was a drop on the plastic cover over the heat pump valves, easily cleaned off. I'd guess they use a machine to force-feed fluid to the MC so they can concurrently raise the car on the lift to get to the four bleed screws.

I was also supposed to get the new HV fuse campaign applied but they said there were no parts available in the country and 44 Konas in total were affected in NZ. According to the repair sheet the fuse change is to resolve poor AC performance, an issue I don't seem to have. No doubt the brake system campaign will show up soon as well but it wasn't available today.

View attachment 10218

Yes I would say the accessory battery was a hurting unit at that 11:30 period but seems to have taken the punishment well. Good thing it was at a high SOC when you brought it in.
Thanks for the well detailed graph displaying the affects of the update process

 

[KiwiME]

I further annotated yesterday's graph in case some details were not clear.
After yesterday's, "assault on battery" and subsequent multiple aux charging events I'm happy to see today that it's not over-doing it as I thought it might, keeping in mind that I have no remote app functionality drawing power and was perfectly happy with a once-a-day ABS.

 

[KiwiME]

So, it does appear post-196 (BMS) update that the impact on the 12V battery of a plugged-in, powered, but not charging AC EVSE has changed. The car wakes-up every half hour 5 or 6 times. It doesn't seem to matter if it's a new plug-in in anticipation of timed charging, or if charging had just completed and the plug was left in place.

It appears to give up after approximately 3 hours. It seems to have much the same impact on the aux battery as unlocking and opening a door. Not a lot, but not insignificant.

 

[navguy12]

So, it does appear post-196 (BMS) update that the impact on the 12V battery of a plugged-in, powered, but not charging AC EVSE has changed. The car wakes-up every half hour 5 or 6 times. It doesn't seem to matter if it's a new plug-in in anticipation of timed charging, or if charging had just completed and the plug was left in place.

It appears to give up after approximately 3 hours. It seems to have much the same impact on the aux battery as unlocking and opening a door. Not a lot, but not insignificant.

View attachment 10269

View attachment 10264

In my wifes 2021, it does not exibit the same effects on the 12 volt battery while plugged into an EVSE whilst not charging .Unable to post screen shots to illustrate an example via this mobile device , but a charge event to 90% ended at 2030 on 15 Dec 2020 and car remained plugged in until next morning (and subsequent top up to 100%) there was only two 12 volt battery drain icicles , one at 0030 on 06 Dec 2020 and one at 0430 on 06 Dec 2020...so one every four hours .

 

[Toolworker]

Having jumped through all Hyundai's hoops to get a case number assigned for my repeated dead 12v battery, I left my car at the dealer on Dec. 14 to have the 12v battery again tested, this time with the case number, and replaced.

I had high hopes that with the case number, a Hyundai factory tech would look at the graphs and suggest something better to try.

It took them one day to request a new 12v battery, one week for Hyundai to jump through their internal hoops and get them the battery, and a few minutes to install it and return the car.

Here's the long-awaited assessment from the factory tech:

​

IOW never mind that your 12v battery keeps dying. There are no error codes so there is nothing wrong with the car. (This was a follow-up visit to one the previous month where the battery had just died, so fortunately that service report did document low voltage DTC codes.) And the graphs show "normal operation" even though one shows the battery discharging below 9v. (Here they are: They've been posted earlier in the thread.)

You can't make this stuff up.

BTW the service adviser said the new battery (on the right) is the correct replacement part, just a new style that they're using now. Seriously?

​

So now I wait to see if the 12v battery goes dead again.

 

[electriceddy]

Having jumped through all Hyundai's hoops to get a case number assigned for my repeated dead 12v battery, I left my car at the dealer on Dec. 14 to have the 12v battery again tested, this time with the case number, and replaced.

I had high hopes that with the case number, a Hyundai factory tech would look at the graphs and suggest something better to try.

It took them one day to request a new 12v battery, one week for Hyundai to jump through their internal hoops and get them the battery, and a few minutes to install it and return the car.

Here's the long-awaited assessment from the factory tech:

View attachment 10304​

IOW never mind that your 12v battery keeps dying. There are no error codes so there is nothing wrong with the car. (This was a follow-up visit to one the previous month where the battery had just died, so fortunately that service report did document low voltage DTC codes.)

And here are the graphs - showing one instance of the battery drained below 9v, and nightly discharge of the 12v battery below 12.5v - that agent K*** said was "normal operation": View attachment 10305 View attachment 10303 They've been posted earlier in the thread.

You can't make this stuff up.

BTW the service adviser said the new battery (on the right) is the correct replacement part, just a new style that they're using now. Seriously?

View attachment 10306​

So now I wait to see if the 12v battery goes dead again.

Hopefully the new battery solves your issues, I am positive you will let us know.
As a side note, at least you don't have to do this:
https://insideevsforum.com/communit...ifications-and-tweaks.5009/page-8#post-103776