Winter EV operation

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DC1 said:
We're supposed to hit 0 F in MA sometime this week, so I'm sure we can try out some theories. I did something similar by trying to precondition while the car was charging at a L2, but although the preconditioning drew power from the L2 at a good pace, the battery did not charge fast at all.

I think it's almost purely a function of how warm the battery is at the time of charge. So when it's the coldest this week, prior to charging I'm going to drive on the highway in ICE mode for at least 15-20 minutes, so that the rest of the car (including the battery) is at a decent temperature, and plug in immediately afterwards and hope that the charging rate doesn't get too slow.
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I had the same experience relative to charge rate and observing the pre-conditioning pulling power from the charger.

I agree that the charge rate is dependent on the temperature of the battery, but I don't think that your plan of driving 15-20 minutes in ICE mode is going to warm the battery. The battery is going to continue to see the ambient air temperature; it's too far from the ICE to enjoy any warmth. I suspect that driving in EV mode would warm it more, but then you've got to replace the charge that you expended, and the charge-rate difference is unlikely to improve enough to make it a net positive move.

Bottom line is we will all be glad when this Winter is over.
 
MNSteve said:
I had the same experience relative to charge rate and observing the pre-conditioning pulling power from the charger.

I agree that the charge rate is dependent on the temperature of the battery, but I don't think that your plan of driving 15-20 minutes in ICE mode is going to warm the battery. The battery is going to continue to see the ambient air temperature; it's too far from the ICE to enjoy any warmth. I suspect that driving in EV mode would warm it more, but then you've got to replace the charge that you expended, and the charge-rate difference is unlikely to improve enough to make it a net positive move.

Bottom line is we will all be glad when this Winter is over.
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I see what you mean. I had forgotten that the battery is all along the underside of the car, so having the engine running in the front won't necessarily provide enough heat to warm up the battery. Other than your suggestion for driving in EV mode (which in fact defeats the purpose), I wonder if there is any other decent way to warm up the battery.
 
DC1 said:
I wonder if there is any other decent way to warm up the battery.
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Buy the Canadian model. Seriously, I do wish that Honda had provided that option for those of us who are almost Canadian.

I happened into my weather app tonight as we were at the magic Clarity temperature; couldn't resist sharing. And no, I'm not going to see if the car will start. I don't need to know bad enough to subject it to the stress of cranking up at this temperature, not to mention subjecting my body to being there to push the button.
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MNSteve said:
Buy the Canadian model. Seriously, I do wish that Honda had provided that option for those of us who are almost Canadian.

I happened into my weather app tonight as we were at the magic Clarity temperature; couldn't resist sharing. And no, I'm not going to see if the car will start. I don't need to know bad enough to subject it to the stress of cranking up at this temperature, not to mention subjecting my body to being there to push the button.
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Awwww, come on MNSteve. How about tomorrow morning in the "interests of science" (aka plain vulgar curiosity) --for the team. Seems like they are not predicting anything lower than minus single digits here.
 
Don't go out there until it's -23 F. Otherwise, we won't really know if Honda put in a magical shutoff at -22 F or they approximated. :)
 
DC1 said:
Don't go out there until it's -23 F. Otherwise, we won't really know if Honda put in a magical shutoff at -22 F or they approximated. :)
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Agreed. Problem is that the car is parked in an unheated garage. We will see tomorrow.


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The other week, we hit -21C and the ICE came on immediately even with the battery fully charged. Everything ran well.


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A battery heater will allow you to charge at full rate after the battery is up to temp.
I have been stuck at 1 kwh charge rate for hours on very cold days, but eventually the rate increases.
Doesn't happen often enough for me to complain.
 
Canadian here (and so I have the battery heater). Right around when I bought my Clarity we were seeing lows of around -10 to -20C and I can say that I noticed any appreciable difference in charge times between then and now (were hovering just above 0C now). I could run the HV to 2 bars, plug it in after work to a Level 1 running over a 15m extension cord, precondition it at 8:00, and get into a fully charged car at 8:15-8:30. The battery warmer really does seem to make a difference.


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Atkinson said:
A battery heater will allow you to charge at full rate after the battery is up to temp.
I have been stuck at 1 kwh charge rate for hours on very cold days, but eventually the rate increases.
Doesn't happen often enough for me to complain.
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I thought we've seen graphs showing the battery heater doesn't begin operating periodically until AFTER charging is complete.
 
So from reading these forums there's a pretty wide disparity between Clarity owners on EV range. So bear that in mind.

My Clarity in the winter time (if I use defrost, which in western Oregon is really required every time I drive), averages about 26 EV miles on the display. My daily commute has no freeway miles, and I average about 25mph. In actual miles which I measure, it's really more like 20 actual miles. I don't really get the 26 EV miles estimated. Luckily, my daily commute is 20 miles, so although I hit zero EV miles and burn some gas, its not a lot of gas.

I love the car but not everyone gets good EV range. It seems to vary a lot. Others in this forum may even report double the range I see, and I don't doubt them but not all Clarity's are alike, and not all weather conditions are the same. In general, the colder the weather, the bigger hit on range. My own temps are currently 27F over-night and about 47F daytime. Back when I had summer-weather I did see the 47 EV range, but in my case that appears to be MAX and not my average.

-Dan
 
The Clarity likes a warm climate, for sure. During the coldest weather here in Alabama, my range dropped to about 40. It helps a lot that I have a basement garage that stays pretty warm in winter and cool in summer. So on short commutes, I don't get into the heat very much, even in cold weather here. I got back up to 53 miles range on the last charge. It's been above 50 the past few of charges. Temps were in the 70s here today. During last year's summer I had range often above 60 miles. But you are definitely right that range varies a ton based on location (temp), where the car is parked (in a warm garage vs outside), how much the driver uses the climate control, speed of commute, tires (rolling resistance) and tire pressure. But I love the car, and probably would want it even in a colder climate. I don't know that I am tough enough to survive the winter in some of the Northern US and Canadian homes of many of the posters here, though.
 
The range on the dash during the summer was often above 60 miles here in Alabama. Like Dan said, that doesn't necessarily mean I can get 60 miles on the battery (optimistic range estimation) since I never tested it with the odometer, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is close.
 
I have tracked actual miles, dash estimates, kWhs, garage temps, and outside temps for the last year.
I charge on the Level 2 EVSE timer set to 4 am so a full 100 SOC doesn’t sit for long in the battery. My garage temps were from 40 to 59 F when outside temps were 8 to 60 F from Jan to Mar.
Almost all the time, I precondition on EVSE power and use seat heater without cabin heat. The EV range estimates ranged from 47 to 59 miles and i didn’t run it down to 0 so I can’t say how much range I actually could have achieved. However past experience shows I usually get about 5 miles less than the EV range estimate.
All this was with no passengers or luggage and ~40/60% city/hwy with speeds 35 to 60 mph.

Looking back over the records, I will say this.

1 All my charging was at garage temps of 40 to 59 F after car had been in garage for at least 6 hours but I have no data for charging outside at colder temps. So I bet that helped but I have no data to say how much it helped. Charging rates went immediately to 7.1 kW as usual and stayed steady except for just 2 times when it started lower and ramped up to 7.1 kW rate. I think this was due to cold battery pack temp that hadn’t equilibrated to the warmer garage before charging started.

2 Cabin heating and defrosting are the overwhelming killers of EV range. Seat heat does not affect range nearly as much. It was hard to tell when I used it and when I didn’t. It seems to be somewhat similar to the drain from A/C usage in summer which is also not that bad. (Caveat: I have full coverage IR reflective tinting so I get a much lower heat gain and less load on the A/C.)
By garaging, preconditioning on EVSE, and seat heating, I was able to avoid cabin heating and defrosting. (Also helps that I’m a empty nest widower and don’t have to keep anyone else warm.) My EV range estimates only dropped from low/mid 60s, to high 40s/50s F. The single time I used cabin heat I only got 40 miles EV range estimate with temps in the 20s F.

3 With garaging, preconditioning on EVSE, and seat heater use only you can avoid large drops in EV range if your commute is not too long. This is especially true if you have an EVSE at work and can do this on the reverse trip.

4 I left the CC off but on fresh so it puts a little outside air in and only had fogging problems twice all winter. I just wiped off the windshield instead of defrost because I was trying to get data on not using any cabin heat or defrost.

5 15 to 30 minutes of preconditioning is only using ~1 to 2 kWh depending on how bad the ambient starting temps are and for me that’s just 10 to 20 cents for a toasty warm car.

So I’ve found that you can significantly reduce winter range loss by garaging, preconditioning on EVSE power and using seat heat instead of a lot of cabin heat. The main culprits are the large cabin and defrost resistance heating elements. If you’re garaging, then ambient temps don’t seem to be as impactful as cabin and defrost heating. If you want or need more EV range you just have to greatly reduce their usage.
Of course my data only goes down to +8 F on clear roads, so all y’all up north suffer through even more EV range loss due to lower temps and more heater/defroster use. And then add in snowy roads and I bet you’re getting EV ranges in the low 30s or high 20s.

Next winter I will use cabin heating along with the above and report back how that changed things. If I just had a heated steering wheel, I could easily forgo cabin heat until it got below freezing with preconditioning and seat heater.
If I had to keep my Clarity outside in the winter, I’d keep it plugged in and precondition 20 to 30 min before leaving and I’d keep it under a car cover that did not go under the car or cover the front radiator air flow. (Even though Honda says not to, I think if you’re smart about not covering the front radiator and obstructing possible battery cooling it should be ok)

Best wishes to our Canadian and northern US friends in the frigid north.
We all are pinning for summer when our Claritys really excel in EV range.
 
The wife's Bolt has battery heating via liquid coolant.
You can hear popping and gurgling sounds when the battery is heating on the fast charger before it ramps up.
It can be zero out and within 20 minutes the charge is at medium rate.
I have only seen it get up to medium charge rate, but it pulls over 20 KWh all the way to within 5 minutes of ending the charge.
High rate requires the battery to begin charge at less than 20% and my wife doesn't like cutting it close.
 
Here's my winter summary (hoping winter is almost over!) ... For reference sake, I live in Ottawa and we have had a very cold winter ... lots of days of -25 C and some nights at -30 C or a touch lower. I park my car overnight in an unheated garage attached to my house and keep the car plugged in when I am at home. I set the climate control when driving to whatever temperature I want to stay comfortable (eg. 21 to 23 on really cold days) and use the seat heater all the time. No point in freezing to get a few extra kms of EV range in my opinion ... I did find that the actual kms driven was surprisingly close to the estimated range provided after unplugging from a full charge.

Whereas in the summer time I was getting EV ranges of 75-90 km, in the winter when the temperatures dropped to their lowest points my EV ranges dropped to 34-40 km. I'm back up to 45-50 km now that the temperatures are starting to warm up to the freezing mark. I'm obviously looking forward to warmer temperatures and higher EV ranges!

I didn't notice a change in charging time, but honestly wasn't monitoring this very closely. The car was always fully charged when I left the house in the mornings. I did notice that in general the ICE kicked-in whenever the outside car thermometer hit -13 deg C or lower (-13 C was consistently a magic number when ICE would turn on).

Despite the drops in EV ranges, I was still able to go 3500 km between gas fill-ups in Oct-Jan, and most recently 1900 km in Jan-Mar. I'll have to top up the tank today as I head to Toronto this afternoon.

Handling in the snow (of which we've had a lot of in Ottawa the past few months) has been excellent with the snow tires I installed in October. No complaints on that front.

So, overall I remain extremely happy and impressed with this car. For my driving pattern is is working out exactly as I had hoped it would. Tons of EV kms even in the winter time, and no range anxiety whatsoever as the gas engine is always there when needed! Over 18000 km since mid-June I am averaging 2.22 liters / 100 km which is outstanding in my opinion.

Finally a gentle reminder for the folks that are citing the range drop in cold weather as a dramatic problem with EVs .. don't forget that all gas vehicles suffer a dramatic drop in fuel efficiency in cold weather too! The efficiency of my other car (VW Golf Sportwagon) drops from 7 to 10 litres / 100 km in the extreme cold.
 
I live in Montreal, I don't have a garage; but I have a parking spot with a 240 V plug. I just made it through my first full winter with my Honda Clarity PHEV (2018 model) and here is my summary.
The car clearly changes it's behaviour based on ambient temperature. Leaving the car plugged in overnight, it will draw electricity from time to time which I'm assuming is for the battery heater.
Pre-heating the cabin before leaving works with the 240 V plug, and heats the cabin while leaving the battery untouched. It also seems to warm up the battery more so than not pre-heating the cabin.
If the temperature is below -15 C (5 American), then the engine comes on when you start the car. Without putting it in "EV" mode, it will run the engine for some time. I'm assuming that this is to warm up the battery. Range is listed as 42 km (26 miles). If the car is in a garage, then maybe this doesn't happen. Coldest temp I started the car in was -25 C. The engine came on right away, but I could drive the car without issue.
If the temperature is between -15 C and 0 C (32 American), the engine may come on; but most often it stays off until battery range is depleted.
I am 99% sure that the car uses a heat pump; which is effectively running the AC in reverse. Heat pumps are more efficient than resistive heating, but do have a lower temp limit. I would suspect that Honda has a way for the heat pump to pull heat away from the engine in extreme cold. I never had an issue heating the cabin.

Overall mileage in the winter suffers, however this isn't that different than when I had my Sonata Hybrid. Winter tires, reduced traction and reduced battery capacity all conspire to reduce your range (both electric and hybrid). IC cars suffer the same as well, Pure electrics take a hit in the winter as well, all about chemistry so no use complaining about it. I drove from Montreal to Ottawa in January, it was cold (-22 C) with a headwind. At 105 kph (65 mph) on the highway the engine stayed on the whole time, overall mileage was 7.5 liters/100 km (31.4mpg). However; it is important to note that the car is significantly better overall than my Sonata Hybrid was in terms of efficiency. In the winter the sonata averaged around 8.5 l/100 km (27.8 mpg) vs the summer at 7.0 l/100km. The Sonata had a slightly larger passenger cabin, but much less trunk space. I have calculated that the clarity uses 42% of the energy (in terms of $ cost) vs the Sonata.
In the summer the mileage is much better, 80 km electric is possible.
Unlike the Tesla Model 3, the Clarity works in the winter; even when covered in ice and snow in the morning. You can open the covers, the doors and easily access the cabin. The only challenge is that the windshield wiper reservoir holds less than 2 liters of wash fluid; so in a Canadian winter you have to fill the windshield washer fluid (pop the hood) every 5 days or so. A bit annoying, but likely only a problem in the north.
Happy with the car. Overall summer mileage around 2.6 l/100 km (90.5 mpg), high mileage days (I'm in sales and drive 500+ km in a day from time to time) are around 3.4 l/100 km (69 mpg) and the winter averaged out to 3.9 l/100 km (60 mpg) (Jan-April). Put it all together and you get around 3.3 liters/100 km (71 mpg). I have 28,000 km on the car now (18,760 miles), have had to service it twice (oil changes).
Improvements? Make the IC engine quieter, replace the infotainement head unit with a better one and a bigger wash fluid tank. Could be prettier or sportier....but then it wouldn't be a car designed for efficiency.
 
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