Unitarians

[R P]

First came the Spirit followed by study. Then confirmation from following and observing the effects of how Jesus taught us to live.

The virtues taught by Jesus brings us closer to ithe Kingdom of God.

Bob Wilson

I know people will tend to believe what they want. But when talking about going to heaven, wouldn't it be important to understand exactly what Jesus says about that? IE you must accept him as saviour as outlined above. Is that included in what you believe?

 

[bwilson4web]

I know people will tend to believe what they want. But when talking about going to heaven, wouldn't it be important to understand exactly what Jesus says about that? IE you must accept him as saviour as outlined above. Is that included in what you believe?

Good points, let's address them:

• "What Jesus says about that?" - correct but we have a problem with the technology for recording what Jesus said. So I use:
  • multiple contemporaneous sources that say effectively the same thing
  • apostles writings are nice but just another interpretation
• "accept him as savior" - which is a construct not seen in Jesus quotes. He speaks of the "Kingdom of God" without any evidence of when and where except by living the life he taught us to live.
• "what you believe?" - God is; Jesus taught us how to live to bring the Kingdomw of God; what happens after death is less important than what we do in this life.

Bob Wilson

 

[R P]

Good points, let's address them:

• "What Jesus says about that?" - correct but we have a problem with the technology for recording what Jesus said. So I use:
  • multiple contemporaneous sources that say effectively the same thing
  • apostles writings are nice but just another interpretation
• "accept him as savior" - which is a construct not seen in Jesus quotes. He speaks of the "Kingdom of God" without any evidence of when and where except by living the life he taught us to live.
• "what you believe?" - God is; Jesus taught us how to live to bring the Kingdomw of God; what happens after death is less important than what we do in this life.

Bob Wilson

Re 2nd point, you're right, can't expect that as a Jesus quote as he is not dead yet. But other scriptures explain that he died and rose up, for our sins and believing and accepting that is our path to heaven. Since I am far from any expert on the scriptures, would like to hear from SD to explain that further.

I take it from your response you believe what you want, but not necessarily accept the whole Bible, in particular the apostles' Books and their interpretations.

 

[bwilson4web]

The spirit you are communicating with has 'told' you that faith in Christ isn't necessary for salvation. Just 'following the teachings of Jesus', which somehow excludes the first 4 commandments and the 7th commandment.

Either trolling or just complete ignorance to what Jesus actually taught. Genuinely have no clue how someone can read scripture and come back believing what you do.

The "Sprit" is sensing a fraction of the Devine. It does not speak or write but touches my soul and happiness.

Theology is found in books, essays, and sermons. It is how we combine sparse spruces into a coherent view of "What is the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything?" But too often we find a tautology, the same thing twice in different words of John 3:16.

I take it from your response you believe what you want, but not necessarily accept the whole Bible, in particular the apostles' Books and their interpretations.

I note that there are Christians on both sides of conflicts citing what they believe justifies their point of view. Same source but opposite actions.

So I prefer empirical observations of what was taught and what is done.

Bob Wilson

 

[bwilson4web]

The spirit you are communicating with has 'told' you that faith in Christ isn't necessary for salvation. Just 'following the teachings of Jesus', which somehow excludes the first 4 commandments and the 7th commandment.

Either trolling or just complete ignorance to what Jesus actually taught. Genuinely have no clue how someone can read scripture and come back believing what you do.

The "Sprit" is sensing a fraction of the Divine. It does not speak or write but touches my soul and happiness.

Theology is found in books, essays, and sermons. It is how we combine sparse spruces into a coherent view of "What is the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything?" But too often we find a tautology, the same thing twice (or more) in different words of Jonh 3:16.

I don't fault those who choose to believe John 3:16 as long as they discuss things sensibly. What I do object to are those who would force their faith on me or others. For example, Oklahoma insists on Bibles in the classroom. Collected with other great religious works, no problem. As part of a course on comparative religions and cultures, a good thing. But proselytizing makes the Bible as popular as the Tax code.

Bob Wilson

 

[R P]

So, Bob, if I understand you correctly, you don't believe all parts of the Bible, just those that suit your beliefs. If you are wrong, the consequences are pretty dire.

I am seeking the truth, and want to be sure I make it to heaven. However, I certainly don't understand it all which is why I have so many questions.

 

[bwilson4web]

the consequences are pretty dire.

Regardless, I am more interested in bringing the Kingdom of God to this life.

Bob Wilson

 

[R P]

I don't understand what that means. Can you elaborate what the Kingdom of God in this life looks like. And do you believe in Heaven?

 

[bwilson4web]

I don't understand what that means. Can you elaborate what the Kingdom of God in this life looks like. And do you believe in Heaven?

The Kingdom of God is living as Jesus taught us. It is not a monolith as much as how we treat each other in our daily lives.

As for "Heaven," we'll find out post mortem. Jesus teaches us how to live our lives to bring the Kingdom of God. That is enough.

Bob Wilson

 

[SouthernDude]

I don't understand what that means. Can you elaborate what the Kingdom of God in this life looks like. And do you believe in Heaven?

In short the Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of Heaven. When Christ comes a second time, what will happen is that this current world will be destroyed and a restored world will replace it. Nobody can predict when this will happen, as scripture says that it will come like a thief in the night. Jesus even says as much too.

Matthew 24:36–44

No One Knows That Day and Hour

[36] “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. [37] For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. [38] For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, [39] and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. [40] Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. [41] Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. [42] Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. [43] But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. [44] Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (ESV)

What Jesus means here is that the exact time of His second coming will not be revealed to us. It could happen one second from now or one million years from now. Nobody but God knows when it will happen.

When Jesus was asked about the Kingdom of God, this was his response to Pontious Pilate

John 18:33–38

My Kingdom Is Not of This World

[33] So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” [34] Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?” [35] Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?” [36] Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” [37] Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” [38] Pilate said to him, “What is truth?”

After he had said this, he went back outside to the Jews and told them, “I find no guilt in him. (ESV)

Jesus says this because the Kingdom of God is not of this world - eg it is heaven.

Bob, if I understand you correctly, you don't believe all parts of the Bible, just those that suit your beliefs.

This is an accurate take. Its not even that hard to prove.

Matthew 19:1–12

Teaching About Divorce

[1] Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. [2] And large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

[3] And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” [4] He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, [5] and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? [6] So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” [7] They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” [8] He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. [9] And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

[10] The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” [11] But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. [12] For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.” (ESV)

Jesus did not specifically need to define marriage to answer this question, but He did. The obvious implication is that the actual definition of marriage is between a man and a woman. Even look at what Jesus considers the exception - A eunuch. Someone who is by definition cut off from marriage because they are either born with the capacity for celibacy, born without the capacity to reproduce, or are basically castrated. As I demonstrated before, Jesus himself also clearly states that sex outside of marriage is sinful too - ie fornication is a sin. So its pretty airtight what Jesus is teaching regarding marriage and sex.

So how do people like bob get around it? They claim that scripture isn't actually scripture, which is what bob is saying here:

"What Jesus says about that?" - correct but we have a problem with the technology for recording what Jesus said

As if the method that God used to record His own words weren't sufficient enough and that the literal God of the universe couldn't preserve the message He wanted people to here in the way He wanted them to.

• multiple contemporaneous sources that say effectively the same thing
• apostles writings are nice but just another interpretation

The hilarious part is that this is what God designed the New Testament to be, but its still not good enough for him and he just dismisses it as "their interpretation". Pretty arrogant if you think about it - especially from someone who keeps trying to apply the label Christian to himself. Unless this is all a joke. IDK. Its virtually impossible to tell because of how low effort bob's responses are.

 

[SouthernDude]

The "Sprit" is sensing a fraction of the Devine. It does not speak or write but touches my soul and happiness.

This is incredibly shallow and does not comport with Jesus's teachings. Also strange how this "spirit" tells you treat things as moral when they directly contradict what Jesus said - eg marriage and sex and abortion actually being murder are the things that immediately come to mind.

Theology is found in books, essays, and sermons. It is how we combine sparse spruces into a coherent view of "What is the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything?" But too often we find a tautology, the same thing twice (or more) in different words of Jonh 3:16.

This is because scripture is supposed to inform how you live your life.

2 Timothy 3:16–17

[16] All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (ESV)

>but eVolUtIoN and muh science!!!
I have had unitarians to my face in person deny human sexual dimorphism to my face. I have also had unitarians deny the obvious genetic differences between human races saying it was all fake then completely contradict themselves and tell me I owed an eternal blood guilt because I am white. So yeah, I honestly don't care what creationists believe about the fossil record - at least that isn't collapsing my civilization.

I note that there are Christians on both sides of conflicts citing what they believe justifies their point of view. Same source but opposite actions.

So I prefer empirical observations of what was taught and what is done.

Abortion has murdered far more people than any war you claim Christianity is responsible for.

I don't fault those who choose to believe John 3:16 as long as they discuss things sensibly. What I do object to are those who would force their faith on me or others. For example, Oklahoma insists on Bibles in the classroom. Collected with other great religious works, no problem. As part of a course on comparative religions and cultures, a good thing. But proselytizing makes the Bible as popular as the Tax code.

>I only like Christians when they allow me to impose my views in the public school system without any pushback.

No. I am not complying with your self hatred. Move somewhere else and destroy them with your nonsense. You are literally telling me that I can't propagate my culture to the children of my society in the education system I am forced to pay for. I will not tolerate the equivalent of spiritual flat earth being taught to my children as if its anywhere equal to the words of the God of the universe and I will not tolerate some culture that is incompatible with mine to be taught as if were equal or better than my own culture either.

"accept him as savior" - which is a construct not seen in Jesus quotes. He speaks of the "Kingdom of God" without any evidence of when and where except by living the life he taught us to live.

Jesus says it to the thief on the cross. Please actually read scripture. People like you really tempt me to have a Jonah mindset.

Luke 23:39–43

[39] One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” [40] But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? [41] And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” [42] And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” [43] And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (ESV)

 

[bwilson4web]

First off, thank you for your reply.

You've clearly explained your theology which reaffirms my Unitarian faith.

This is incredibly shallow and does not comport with Jesus's teachings. Also strange how this "spirit" tells you treat things as moral when they directly contradict what Jesus said - eg marriage and sex and abortion actually being murder are the things that immediately come to mind.

KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is an engineering principal that I apply in life. Occam's razor: "when competing explanations exist for the same phenomenon, the one with the fewest assumptions (the simplest) is usually the best to start with." So yes, "incredibly shallow' is what following KISS may look like to those whose faith is a 'house of cards'..

Actually, "Jesus's teachings" are not that hard to understand and follow. As for "this "spirit"", it doesn't speak English or any other language. It touches and comforts my soul. It has never said anything or much less about "marriage and sex and abortion actually being murder are the things that immediately come to mind."

This is because scripture is supposed to inform how you live your life.

The quotes from Jesus, his lessons, do that for me.

>but eVolUtIoN and muh science!!!

Huh?

I have had unitarians to my face in person deny human sexual dimorphism to my face. I have also had unitarians deny the obvious genetic differences between human races saying it was all fake then completely contradict themselves and tell me I owed an eternal blood guilt because I am white. So yeah, I honestly don't care what creationists believe about the fossil record - at least that isn't collapsing my civilization.

As Jesus said,

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?​

​

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.​

Abortion has murdered far more people than any war you claim Christianity is responsible for.

Then take comfort that each and every one of their souls are in God's care:

Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?​

>I only like Christians when they allow me to impose my views in the public school system without any pushback.

An objective study of religion is one of many subjects that should be taught in school. So I've ranged from Latter Day Saints through light study of Islam, Judaism, and Hindu. Ignorance should be avoided if one has the time and energy.

No. I am not complying with your self hatred. Move somewhere else and destroy them with your nonsense. You are literally telling me that I can't propagate my culture to the children of my society in the education system I am forced to pay for. I will not tolerate the equivalent of spiritual flat earth being taught to my children as if its anywhere equal to the words of the God of the universe and I will not tolerate some culture that is incompatible with mine to be taught as if were equal or better than my own culture either.

A perfect example of how your theology drives religious refugees into the doors of Unitarian churches. I've seen so many but often found the bad thinking habits of their families, after a while, leads them to wander off. Bad thinking habits are very hard to break.

Jesus says it to the thief on the cross. Please actually read scripture. People like you really tempt me to have a Jonah mindset.

Actually, that would be refreshing. Go to the Book and cite what Jesus said, like I did.

Bob Wilson

 

[SouthernDude]

You've clearly explained your theology which reaffirms my Unitarian faith.

Faith? Faith in what exactly? Seems to be idolatry in your not impressive intellect. Not to mention the very obvious spite you have towards people like me because I expose you.

KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is an engineering principal that I apply in life. Occam's razor: "when competing explanations exist for the same phenomenon, the one with the fewest assumptions (the simplest) is usually the best to start with.

Everything is simple till its not! What if you application of KISS is entirely wrong and you don't actually know what you are talking about?

So yes, "incredibly shallow' is what following KISS may look like to those whose faith is a 'house of cards'..

Prove it. Prove that my faith is a house of cards. lol. This seems to be more like projection than anything.

It has never said anything or much less about "marriage and sex and abortion actually being murder are the things that immediately come to mind."

"I don't care about what Jesus said about marriage or if something I support counts as murder by Jesus's definition of murder"
This is why I do not believe you actually care about what Jesus says at all. If you actually wanted to follow Jesus's teachings, you would try to figure out how to actually live by Jesus's teachings. Christians have done this and have developed catechisms to help remind them of what the teachings are and you consider what they say legalistic.

Then take comfort that each and every one of their souls are in God's care:

Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

"Its ok to murder babies because I think they go to heaven" ok wow. that is clearly not what God intends with this verse. Wildly out of context and you should realize this if Jesus's teachings are so easily understood to you.

I used to think that comic book villains were one directional and unrealistic. Then I met Unitarians!

An objective study of religion is one of many subjects that should be taught in school. So I've ranged from Latter Day Saints through light study of Islam, Judaism, and Hindu. Ignorance should be avoided if one has the time and energy.

Considering how poorly you've studied Christianity, I assume that anything you think about any other religion is wildly incorrect.

A perfect example of how your theology drives religious refugees into the doors of Unitarian churches. I've seen so many but often found the bad thinking habits of their families, after a while, leads them to wander off. Bad thinking habits are very hard to break.

Yeah, turns out heretics really don't actually like what Jesus has to say. These "refugees" you speak of are people who refuse to repent of obvious sin. Being vaguely "mean" or "impolite" is not a sin. You accuse Christians of being 'legalistic' or having 'bad thinking' but when presented with the question of "ok what does Jesus teach then" you crumble and have nothing of any real substance.

You act like you want to follow Jesus's teachings and you act like you think they are good, but you don't want children to learn about them in any serious capacity. Why? Because you don't believe it.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

This verse is not meant to be some cheap weapon to shut down legitimate criticism. This should be obvious if you actually understood Jesus's teachings.

You should read Luke 4 and Matthew 4 and reflect on how Satan uses scripture and how you use it. Its a bit similar. lol

Actually, that would be refreshing. Go to the Book and cite what Jesus said, like I did.

If you actually want me too, I will quite literally prove to you that what Paul says in the book of Romans is what Jesus is actually teaching. 99% of my "rude" behavior is trying to force you to think anyways.

 

[bwilson4web]

Faith? Faith in what exactly? Seems to be idolatry in your not impressive intellect. Not to mention the very obvious spite you have towards people like me because I expose you.

Faith backed up by observation that following the teachings of Jesus makes our lives better. It brings us into the Kingdom of God.

Everything is simple till it's not! What if you application of KISS is entirely wrong and you don't actually know what you are talking about?

An engineering term brought about by observation and practice. Better designs have fewer parts and processes.

Prove it. Prove that my faith is a house of cards. lol. This seems to be more like projection than anything.

Your posting have accomplished it.

"I don't care about what Jesus said about marriage or if something I support counts as murder by Jesus's definition of murder"
This is why I do not believe you actually care about what Jesus says at all. If you actually wanted to follow Jesus's teachings, you would try to figure out how to actually live by Jesus's teachings. Christians have done this and have developed catechisms to help remind them of what the teachings are and you consider what they say legalistic.

Strange, I am a student of Jesus and follow his teaching every chance I get.

"It's ok to murder babies because I think they go to heaven" ok wow. that is clearly not what God intends with this verse. Wildly out of context and you should realize this if Jesus's teachings are so easily understood to you.

Reminds me of:


On a more serious note, some claim we must seek an eternal life in Heaven after death. It is the same, fervent belief of every suicide bomber and the 9/11 killers. It is what motivates the Russian commanders to send their people to their deaths. It was fed the Irish conflicts for centuries.

I used to think that comic book villains were one directional and unrealistic. Then I met Unitarians!

No problem from me. I forgive you.

Considering how poorly you've studied Christianity, I assume that anything you think about any other religion is wildly incorrect.

Is there a web page with an online quiz?

Yeah, turns out heretics really don't actually like what Jesus has to say. These "refugees" you speak of are people who refuse to repent of obvious sin. Being vaguely "mean" or "impolite" is not a sin. You accuse Christians of being 'legalistic' or having 'bad thinking' but when presented with the question of "ok what does Jesus teach then" you crumble and have nothing of any real substance.

Not every Christian as some are almost Unitarian in actions and teachings, Others, I'm glad they have Sunday services so they won't be out and about persecuting the poor and others.

You act like you want to follow Jesus's teachings and you act like you think they are good, but you don't want children to learn about them in any serious capacity. Why? Because you don't believe it.

Along with what the Latter Day Saints, Islam, and Hindu believe. I would even include Buddhusts beliefs and practices.

This verse is not meant to be some cheap weapon to shut down legitimate criticism. This should be obvious if you actually understood Jesus's teachings.

It was about 'hypocrisy' of trying to correct someone else when completely ignorant about what they are doing.

You should read Luke 4 and Matthew 4 and reflect on how Satan uses scripture and how you use it. Its a bit similar. lol

As do you. Was there anything in particular?

If you actually want me too, I will quite literally prove to you that what Paul says in the book of Romans is what Jesus is actually teaching. 99% of my "rude" behavior is trying to force you to think anyways.

We're having a fine chat. Each presenting their thoughts and options. Works for me.

Bob Wilson