Clarity's battery capacity loss is normal compared to other PHEVs and even EVs. It is not particularly good, but it is not terrible either. However I think Honda is pretty conservative in terms of buffer management. I think Chevy adjusts buffers in the Volt, so you won't notice the same level of range loss as Clarity, but in reality the battery is losing capacity at a similar rate.
Something I wish I had known before I purchased the vehicle
- Thread starter Aaron
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I reckon you’ll be looking at 34 miles or less from here on out. It shouldn’t be expected that a salesperson would volunteer information on any negative attributes of a product they are selling. It’s on the buyer to learn these things and there is, and has been, plenty of information available on the subject. I guess you can be grateful that the car isn’t completely dependent on the battery.
As far as the speed penalty, there does seem to be more of an impact on EV’s as compared to the dozen or so ICE vehicles that I’ve driven over the years, when the speed increases from ~65mph to ~80mph. The chart provided earlier indicates a drop in “fuel” efficiency of roughly 20%, whereas my personal experience would put the drop in fuel efficiency closer to 10% for an ICE vehicle, gas or diesel, under the same conditions. This type of information would be a bit more challenging to find, but it is still available.
Coming from a gen-1 Honda Insight (61 city, 70 highway EPA) that goaded me into exceeding those numbers (I could achieve 85 mpg without drafting), I've always driven our Clarity to maximize fuel efficiency, often exceeding the EPA numbers (as do many others on this forum). Rather than conforming to a car like I do, most drivers expect the car to conform to them. Logically, that is what machines are meant to do. The EPA numbers are meant to serve only as a basis for comparison, not a guarantee of performance in all situations.
I agree. If you want to get the 47 miles of EV range that the EPA calculated then you have to drive the car like the EPA. And I’m pretty sure they didn’t drive it at 80 mph to get those numbers. And this is just a personal opinion for the OP: you CAN drive 60 mph. If you can bring yourself to achieve that, it might even bring down your general stress level which will benefit your health. Take it from someone with some years of experience who probably felt the same way as you at one time earlier in his life. Just my opinion...
Johnhenkles
New Member
Until battery tech improves they should probably provide an average range for the expected life of the battery pack alongside the peak range. This would help inform folks new to the battery world. When ever I buy anything tech related I assume I am going to get 80%-90% of what I pay for. Assuming I would get 47 year round would have burned me when I calculated my fuel savings for my commute, 66 mile round round trip (but my climate is either boiling lava hot or ice cold nor cal).
neal adkins
Active Member
There is definitely a learning curve here. To start with if you drive half as aggressive as most Californians i would say that you are not too far off my expectations. Simply put, if you drive a 4k pound car repetitively at high speeds coupled with rapid acceleration up hill, and charge on a level 2 charger when your battery is still hot from your trip, thats not too far off my expectations. I purchased my clarity in june 2018 and do most of driving on flat roads. Occasionally i drive on hills when i go on trips. I charge on level 1 charger and use hv charge mode when climbing long grades and soc permits. I have about 32k miles and still haven't seen noticeable change in ev range. I dont shy away from making my gas motor earn its keep and let it help me maintain my batteries health when I'm driving 60 plus mph or climbing hills. I'm very happy getting around 77mpg average with about 50 percent highway miles.
The battery warranty indirectly provides information that could be used to estimate the number that you are seeking. It would take a few sheets of paper and a pencil and no 2 vehicles will produce the same result.
We could estimate the battery capacity to be near 70% after 8-10 years, just above the warranty threshold. This would result in a loss of range of 14-15 miles. Split the difference between 33 and 47 and we have a lifetime average of 40. This assumes many things, some of which will likely never occur.
We’d also have to define the “life” of the battery. It isn’t dead when it reaches 66% of capacity. Battery manufacturers provide charts that show remaining capacity after a certain number of charge cycles to various depth of discharge, at different charge and discharge rates and at different temperatures. Loads of variables.
Just my opinion, but I don’t see a peak value as being very meaningful. It might be achieved from a drive at 35mph, on flat terrain at 75F on a day with no wind. That’s not a realistic driving pattern for anyone.
JFon101231
Active Member
A local Chevy dealer offers "free" 2 or 3 day test drives. For most normal cars it's probably not necessary but if I had reservations about whether a vehicle would fit MY particular use case, I'd strongly suggest something like that (and plan it for worst case, ie for me on a <20*F winter day)
I on the other hand took a day off work, hopped a train from CT to NJ and drove my Fit EV back home the day the $199/mo lease deal was announced. Memory is fuzzy but I think it took me about 11 hours to drive 200 miles between 55 mph speed to maximize range and still having to stop ~3 times on the way back to L2 charge.
I on the other hand took a day off work, hopped a train from CT to NJ and drove my Fit EV back home the day the $199/mo lease deal was announced. Memory is fuzzy but I think it took me about 11 hours to drive 200 miles between 55 mph speed to maximize range and still having to stop ~3 times on the way back to L2 charge.
Johnhenkles
New Member
I agree that peak is pretty useless too but that is what they advertise (OK, 47 may not be "peak" but it after two years it will be harder and harder to reach especially for those of us that drive lots of freeway keeping up with traffic). The EPA could figure out the average using a predicted 8 year (using the fed warranty) curve of a "typical" use case and provide that along side the 47. It still wouldn't be as useful for Aaron or myself who use all the juice both directions to work, but it could temper expectations.
I agree that the numbers are pretty easy to crunch using assumptions that most of the folks well versed in the EV lifestyle are well aware of. But I still run into people that have no Idea what a hybrid is, let alone a plug-in hybrid and pure EV. Expecting the typical user to calculate the predicted life (or range) of their battery using their warranty info on their own is silly. People barely know the information the window sticker provides at the dealer. Proof of this will occur this November when all of the "I bought my car last May and was getting 47 miles now I'm only getting 36" posts start to roll in.
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This is correct. Those of us who are early adopters and are hopeful for widespread usage understand these issues. My original point was and continues to be the average (90+%) of the vehicle buying public is not going to download spreadsheets and do the calculations I am reading about. They just aren't.
I have a good friend who just purchased a Model Y. He drove it from Socal to Utah and back and had a horrific story about how he ended up CRAWLING to a charging station in Vegas after doing some quick back of the envelope math in Utah and assumed he could make it. It made him very angry and he was regretting his purchase. MOST people are going to have that reaction. It is not helping our cause.
I believe from the data we've seen so far that there's typically an early significant drop in battery capacity, then much less over time.
But regardless yeah, the car seems to be mid-40s in "good" EV conditions and mid-30s in "bad" EV conditions. I also wish I knew more about the significantly harsh heating & speed costs in EV mode, but on the other hand it's understandable too. Really though yeah, driving in the 70s in EV mode is just really inefficient, unfortunately. If you can't optimize ~40-45 miles on your daily commute to spend at lower speeds in EV mode and then PHEV for the rest, I'm not sure you can do much more.
I do also have to say though, at least I'm glad that I got the Clarity and not one of those chintzy "20 mile range" PHEVs instead, because then you may be looking at a sad 15 miles or so of EV range in poor conditions.
Edit: Also, your new tires may be reducing the range another 10% or so, from what I've heard. Even with the hit, I'm planning to do the same though once these are worn. How does the car feel and respond so far with those?
There certainly is a lack of knowledge when it comes to the various forms of EV’s. PHEV’s may be the most perplexing. I had posted on another thread that while explaining the Clarity to a coworker, he responded that he needed to have a gas car. It is mind boggling how seemingly simple, basic concepts are so difficult to understand.
At the same time, there is no lack of information available for those who want to learn about battery degradation, think Nissan Leaf, or battery performance in cold temperatures. Anyone who plans to fork over their hard earned money for a BEV or PHEV would be remiss in failing to learn about the nuances of the vehicle.
Sorry guys, but these things have been around for more than a decade, warts and all, for all to see.
Just FYI: I bought a new Honda Odyssey in 2002 that stated an EPA rating of 18 mpg on the sticker for city driving. I don’t think I ever saw 18 mpg with city driving. My average was probably 20% below that number.
It is unlikely that this prediction will come true.
Perhaps Aaron could inform us as to whether or not he ever achieved 47 EV miles at 75mph. In my experience ~40 miles is the EV range at that speed, under ideal conditions such as 70F, relatively flat terrain and no wind.
I can only speak for my vehicle, but after 20 months and 17K miles, I’m regularly getting 47 EV miles at speeds of 60-65mph. I used to cover that distance and have 5-8 EV miles remaining as opposed to 0-2, but that was pre-Covid and traffic was much slower.
The battery is at 49.9Ah, it once sat, fully charged for 6 months, the rest of the time it has gone through a daily, L1, full or nearly full charge cycle. I’d estimate that 13-14K miles have been driven in EV. In my opinion, it is holding up quite well.
Phil_Meyers
Active Member
I've had our car for about a year and half. We live in the mountains, so a lot of up and down. We drive a lot, over 40k miles a year. I don't worry about the range. I can get to the same point when going down to the city on EV. The car has been holding up very well, it gets abused pretty good from the amount of driving and the batteries usually get drained at least twice a day. Honda quality.
Tek_Freek
Active Member
I think it will. Those buyers who bought after last winter in northern climes will get a disappointing surprise next winter.
Kerbe
Well-Known Member
Do people not notice that the MPG ratings on their ICE vehicles never seem to accurately match real world driving? Or that their mileage drops during the winter? Or that overall MPG drops over time as the vehicle ages? This double-standard concerns me: We seem to rush to crucify EVs for things that we readily accept in ICE vehicles...
Fast Eddie B
Well-Known Member
To be fair, a drop in MPG in an aging ICE vehicle in not to be expected, and is an indication of something out of spec or needing repair/maintenance.
In an EV, a drop in EV range over time is simple battery physics.
Subjectively, our 2018 that just hit 50,000 miles does seem to have lost 2 or 3 miles of EV range. With warmer weather, it was not unusual to see just in excess of 50 miles the first two years. Now it seems harder to get to 50 miles, under essentially the same conditions. The only difference is non-energy-saving tires now, so that may account for some or all of the loss. And I’m not at all disappointed. When EV miles are exceeded, it’s not like the Clarity turns into a pumpkin - it turns into a quite efficient hybrid. And at today’s gas and energy prices, any hit to the wallet buying gas once in a while is really not worth worrying about.
My observations are that an ICE vehicle may see a ~10% reduction in fuel economy in cold temperatures, whereas an EV may see a loss of 20-30%, possibly more. So, while both types of vehicles suffer in cold temperatures, the EV is impacted to a greater extent. Making people aware of this isn’t necessarily crucifying the vehicle.
The original concern was that the general public is not aware of these nuances, which may be true, even though there is ample information available to learn about such matters, for anyone willing to dig an inch deep.
As far as MPG dropping on ICE vehicles over time, I can say that I have never experienced that. This is based on owning a 22 year old truck from day one, a 16 year old motorhome and driving at least 2 cars to the ripe old age of 15. In fact, Diesel engines often see an improvement in fuel economy after 30-50K miles. Battery degradation over time is a fact of life, and should be considered as a negative attribute of an EV.
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Here’s an interesting article I just read. It’s about range anxiety on electric vehicles.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.to...ive-to-my-brothers-wedding-and-barely-made-it