Something I wish I had known before I purchased the vehicle

[MrFixit]

I am new here and this is my first post but can anyone tell me what is "Normal degradation" of these batteries.

Greetings, and welcome to the forum.

A new traction battery starts out with a capacity of 55 ampere-hours. The warranty applies if this capacity drops below 2/3 of this, or 36.67 ampere-hours. This is documented on the last page of Honda's Service Bulletin 17-093 (Pre-Delivery Inspection). I have attached this for reference...

Note - certain states (California is one of them) requires Honda to extend the 8Y / 100K warranty to 10 Years / 150K miles so you benefit from that.

You will see a lot of discussion about this, but in my opinion, do not try to infer loss of capacity from what you perceive as a range loss. There are too many variables for this.

We have come up with a means to read the remaining battery capacity directly from the vehicle. Refer to this thread:
https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/budget-battery-capacity-readout.10531/

There is another way too, but this is the easiest. We can assist you if you would like to try it.

If you are technically inclined, you will notice that we have a shared spreadsheet where many members have reported their capacity readings so you can see curves showing the behavior we have found with the degradation.

 

[3_aside]

Greetings, and welcome to the forum.

A new traction battery starts out with a capacity of 55 ampere-hours. The warranty applies if this capacity drops below 2/3 of this, or 36.67 ampere-hours. This is documented on the last page of Honda's Service Bulletin 17-093 (Pre-Delivery Inspection). I have attached this for reference...

Note - certain states (California is one of them) requires Honda to extend the 8Y / 100K warranty to 10 Years / 150K miles so you benefit from that.

You will see a lot of discussion about this, but in my opinion, do not try to infer loss of capacity from what you perceive as a range loss. There are too many variables for this.

We have come up with a means to read the remaining battery capacity directly from the vehicle. Refer to this thread:
https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/budget-battery-capacity-readout.10531/

There is another way too, but this is the easiest. We can assist you if you would like to try it.

If you are technically inclined, you will notice that we have a shared spreadsheet where many members have reported their capacity readings so you can see curves showing the behavior we have found with the degradation.

Thank you for all of the information MrFixit. This is more than any dealer has provided and in such short time. I should have come here first.

Thank you again!

 

[Landshark]

I am new here and this is my first post but can anyone tell me what is "Normal degradation" of these batteries.

“Normal” is in the eyes of the beholder. There is a wealth of information available about lithium battery degradation. There are laboratory test results that cover a variety of conditions, including various temperatures, charge and discharge rates, depth of discharge, etc, etc. If this is something you’d care to research further, be advised that too much exposure could cause your head to explode.

In a nutshell, an initial ~10% loss over the first year or so, followed by an additional ~10% over the next 3-6 years would be a reasonable expectation. The Honda warranty allows for a much greater loss of capacity compared to almost every other warranty with which I am familiar. Personally, I would not anticipate Honda replacing very many batteries due to warranty claims for loss of capacity. Additionally, the percentages given in the warranty information should not be used to estimate battery degradation over time.

I've lost about 29% within the first 12-14 months of ownership in Southern California. A software patch gave me a few miles back but within 6 months, I am just about where I was a year ago.

How did you determine that you’ve lost 29% of battery capacity?

What software patch do you believe restored some of the lost battery capacity?

 

[David Towle]

I'm surprised multiple posters are talking about so much range loss. In BEV mode I still average 70-75 miles in my normal driving at almost 3 years and 50,000 miles. It goes down to 45-50 with highway driving, both are no change from new. But I did drive for about a year near exclusively on gas, alternating HV Charge (to 60%) with EV operation back to near zero battery. Could this kind of operation helped my battery maintain its capacity?

 

[3_aside]

“Normal” is in the eyes of the beholder. There is a wealth of information available about lithium battery degradation. There are laboratory test results that cover a variety of conditions, including various temperatures, charge and discharge rates, depth of discharge, etc, etc. If this is something you’d care to research further, be advised that too much exposure could cause your head to explode.

In a nutshell, an initial ~10% loss over the first year or so, followed by an additional ~10% over the next 3-6 years would be a reasonable expectation. The Honda warranty allows for a much greater loss of capacity compared to almost every other warranty with which I am familiar. Personally, I would not anticipate Honda replacing very many batteries due to warranty claims for loss of capacity. Additionally, the percentages given in the warranty information should not be used to estimate battery degradation over time.



How did you determine that you’ve lost 29% of battery capacity?

What software patch do you believe restored some of the lost battery capacity?

I was averaging around 49 miles the first year which dropped down to 35 miles on a full charge. I am unsure the patch. One of my local dealers said they did an update to the software that was a patch and it did boost it back up to about 42 miles on a full charge.
I have to agree with your assumption on the battery warranty claims as it's not clearly defined and ambiguous.

 

[petteyg359]

I was averaging around 49 miles the first year which dropped down to 35 miles on a full charge. I am unsure the patch. One of my local dealers said they did an update to the software that was a patch and it did boost it back up to about 42 miles on a full charge.
I have to agree with your assumption on the battery warranty claims as it's not clearly defined and ambiguous.

The range estimate *is not* the battery capacity. Are these numbers from reading your odometer? More importantly, are they from the same time of year? Range *will* drop in winter.

 

[MrFixit]

I have to agree with your assumption on the battery warranty claims as it's not clearly defined and ambiguous.

What is not clear about this (from Honda SP 17-093)?

Also, as I said earlier, you simply cannot interpret range as a direct measure of battery capacity... There are just too many variables that cause range to vary quite dramatically with no change in actual battery capacity. The vehicle measures the battery capacity and that's what Honda uses to determine warranty eligibility. A competent dealer (if there is such a thing) can read this number from the vehicle, OR you can do it yourself if you are technically inclined.

 

[MrFixit]

The Honda warranty allows for a much greater loss of capacity compared to almost every other warranty with which I am familiar.

@Landshark,
Which warranties are you familiar with?
I saw one compilation of this information, but it was too dated (2016) - https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107864_electric-car-battery-warranties-compared

I'm surprised there isn't an organization that formally tracks this.
I was just looking to see what I could find, and came up with this list.

Tesla Model 3 is 70%
Nissan Leaf is 75% (9 bars out of 12)
Chevy Bolt is 60%
Chevy Volt is 70%
Chevy Spark is 65%
BMW i3 is 70%
Honda Clarity is 66%
Toyota (Prius Prime, RAV4 Prime) - Does not seem to warranty degradation
VW e-Golf is 70%
Ford - Does not seem to warranty degradation

The average for those that have a number on this list is 68.25%
I am not seeing a 'much greater capacity loss compared to almost every other warranty'...
Please provide any data you have found. Consumers would greatly benefit from an authoritative source that gathered this info. Plus, it would put pressure on manufacturers to 'keep up' with their competitors !

A battery warranty (years/miles) is really useless without a specified failure threshold, and it lulls consumers into a false sense of security.

 

[Landshark]

I was averaging around 49 miles the first year which dropped down to 35 miles on a full charge.

Did your driving conditions change? Less traffic, higher speeds, for instance?

I am unsure the patch. One of my local dealers said they did an update to the software that was a patch and it did boost it back up to about 42 miles on a full charge.

Did one of the 7 dealers, who were unable to provide basic information on the battery warranty, perform this mysterious patch? Did they claim that it would increase range or battery capacity?

I have to agree with your assumption on the battery warranty claims as it's not clearly defined and ambiguous.

My assumption on future battery warranty claims is based on my opinion that very few batteries will lose ~33% of their original capacity during the covered warranty period. Also, in my opinion, there is nothing unclear or ambiguous about the wording in the warranty.

 

[3_aside]

The range estimate *is not* the battery capacity. Are these numbers from reading your odometer? More importantly, are they from the same time of year? Range *will* drop in winter.

This has been ongoing for over 16 months with the same driving patterns.

 

[3_aside]

Did your driving conditions change? Less traffic, higher speeds, for instance?



Did one of the 7 dealers, who were unable to provide basic information on the battery warranty, perform this mysterious patch? Did they claim that it would increase range or battery capacity?
They did mentioned it was a software update and this should help. It did bring the full charge miles from about 36 to about 42 but this only lasted about 3 months. Now I am back to about 37



My assumption on future battery warranty claims is based on my opinion that very few batteries will lose ~33% of their original capacity during the covered warranty period. Also, in my opinion, there is nothing unclear or ambiguous about the wording in the warranty.

 

[3_aside]

What is not clear about this (from Honda SP 17-093)?

View attachment 12233

Also, as I said earlier, you simply cannot interpret range as a direct measure of battery capacity... There are just too many variables that cause range to vary quite dramatically with no change in actual battery capacity. The vehicle measures the battery capacity and that's what Honda uses to determine warranty eligibility. A competent dealer (if there is such a thing) can read this number from the vehicle, OR you can do it yourself if you are technically inclined.

I service department was able to provide the information based upon the service bulletin #17-093 and my battery pack capacity is at 47.1Ah. Still way above the 36.6Ah as outlined. Thank you again for all of your help and walking me through this.

 

[MrFixit]

@3_aside.

Glad you were able to educate your dealer !

We have a shared spreadsheet where we try to collect as much information as possible about forum member's battery capacity...
May we include your measurement in the shared spreadsheet?

These are the other bits of information we try to collect whenever available:

• Odometer Reading
• Country / State
• Charging Type (L1, L2, or both)
• % of miles that are EV (just a rough estimate)
• # of charges per week (rough estimate)
• Model Year (2018)...
• Trim Level (Base or Touring)
• Manufacture Date
• Purchase Date

You can enter whatever information you want yourself, or I am happy to do it.
Here is a link to the spreadsheet... There are a lot of different charts that illustrate what others are observing:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OQIpT_YiGp9N-vnBOiSz96C2I/edit#gid=1710145002

 

[3_aside]

@3_aside.

Glad you were able to educate your dealer !

We have a shared spreadsheet where we try to collect as much information as possible about forum member's battery capacity...
May we include your measurement in the shared spreadsheet?

These are the other bits of information we try to collect whenever available:

• Odometer Reading
• Country / State
• Charging Type (L1, L2, or both)
• % of miles that are EV (just a rough estimate)
• # of charges per week (rough estimate)
• Model Year (2018)...
• Trim Level (Base or Touring)
• Manufacture Date
• Purchase Date

You can enter whatever information you want yourself, or I am happy to do it.
Here is a link to the spreadsheet... There are a lot of different charts that illustrate what others are observing:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OQIpT_YiGp9N-vnBOiSz96C2I/edit#gid=1710145002

All done. Let me know if there is anything else you need and thanks again for all of your help

 

[Electra]

Tesla Model 3 is 70%
Nissan Leaf is 75% (9 bars out of 12)
Chevy Bolt is 60%
Chevy Volt is 70%
Chevy Spark is 65%
BMW i3 is 70%
Honda Clarity is 66%
Toyota (Prius Prime, RAV4 Prime) - Does not seem to warranty degradation
VW e-Golf is 70%
Ford - Does not seem to warranty degradation

The average for those that have a number on this list is 68.25%

You need to update the Leaf's info because it's at 66% too since not all the bars are the same %.

https://mobility.lk/2020/10/11/soh-capacity-bars/

 

[MrFixit]

You need to update the Leaf's info because it's at 66% too since not all the bars are the same %.

Thanks for providing the reference...
I wish there was an authoritative source that compiled this information. The list was just me, googling around to ascertain how the Clarity warranty stacked up against the industry. Owners deserve to know these details , but the manufacturers are not forthcoming.

Corrected list of known battery warranty thresholds:
Tesla Model 3 is 70%
Nissan Leaf is 66.25% (9 bars out of 12, bars are not equal weight)
Chevy Bolt is 60%
Chevy Volt is 70%
Chevy Spark is 65%
BMW i3 is 70%
Honda Clarity is 66.7%
Toyota (Prius Prime, RAV4 Prime) - Does not seem to warranty degradation
VW e-Golf is 70%
Ford - Does not seem to warranty degradation

The average for those that have a number on this list is 67.2%

 

[Robert_Alabama]

Thanks for providing the reference...
I wish there was an authoritative source that compiled this information. The list was just me, googling around to ascertain how the Clarity warranty stacked up against the industry. Owners deserve to know these details , but the manufacturers are not forthcoming.

Corrected list of known battery warranty thresholds:
Tesla Model 3 is 70%
Nissan Leaf is 66.25% (9 bars out of 12, bars are not equal weight)
Chevy Bolt is 60%
Chevy Volt is 70%
Chevy Spark is 65%
BMW i3 is 70%
Honda Clarity is 66.7%
Toyota (Prius Prime, RAV4 Prime) - Does not seem to warranty degradation
VW e-Golf is 70%
Ford - Does not seem to warranty degradation

The average for those that have a number on this list is 67.2%

If you can believe all you read on the internet, then Audi E-Tron is 70% based on the cnet article below:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/audi-e-tron-fast-charging/

Edited to Add:
The Ford Mach E also seems to be 70% based on this faq from Ford:

https://www.ford.com/buy-site-wide-content/overlays/mach-e-overlays/mach-e-faq/

 

[MrFixit]

Added to list of known battery warranty thresholds:
Audi E-Tron is 70%
BMW i3 is 70%
Chevy Bolt is 60%
Chevy Volt is 70%
Chevy Spark is 65%
Ford Mach E is 70%
Honda Clarity is 66.7%
Nissan Leaf is 66.25% (9 bars out of 12, bars are not equal weight)
Tesla Model 3 is 70%
Toyota (Prius Prime, RAV4 Prime) - Does not seem to warranty degradation
VW e-Golf is 70%

The average for those that have a number on this list is 67.8%

In states where emissions laws require manufacturers to extend the HV battery warranties for 'TZEV' vehicles from 8Y/100K to 10Y/150K (California and at least 12 other states) -- Has anyone seen (either way) if the same warranty thresholds apply, or would additional degradation be allowed during the extension period? The extension wouldn't mean as much if additional degradation is allowed.

 

[MrFixit]

Added to list (Again) of known battery warranty thresholds:
Audi E-Tron is 70%
BMW i3 is 70%
Chevy Bolt is 60%
Chevy Volt is 70%
Chevy Spark is 65%
Ford Mach E is 70%
Honda Clarity is 66.7%
Mini Cooper SE is 70%
Nissan Leaf is 66.25% (9 bars out of 12, bars are not equal weight)
Tesla Model 3 is 70%
Toyota (Prius Prime, RAV4 Prime) - Does not seem to warranty degradation
VW e-Golf is 70%

The average for those that have a number on this list is 68%

 

[rodeknyt]

In states where emissions laws require manufacturers to extend the HV battery warranties for 'TZEV' vehicles from 8Y/100K to 10Y/150K (California and at least 12 other states) -- Has anyone seen (either way) if the same warranty thresholds apply, or would additional degradation be allowed during the extension period? The extension wouldn't mean as much if additional degradation is allowed.

There is no language in the documentation (the PDI document) that says anything other than falling below the threshold and that the battery is still in warranty coverage. If the warranty goes to 10 years, then it's covered.