Questioning about Hybrid, especially PHEV

[Recoil45]

I won’t debate which is more complex. However, a BEV may be more complex than you imagine.

My point is that no one can predict, with any degree of certainty, which vehicle will have higher post-warranty repair costs over the lifetime of the vehicle. You may disagree with that.

It’s clearly more complex than you are suggesting I disagree with (which I’m not) as proven by Tesla’s dismal reliability ratings at this time.


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[JCA]

I think your looking for something I’m not saying.

ICE cars are more complex than BEV. ICE plus BEV (aka hybrid) is more complex than than ICE alone and will eventually have higher repair costs than ICE alone. If you disagree with that then we simply go on in disagreement.

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I agree that a BEV with no engine should be less complex, but I don't think ICE+battery hybrids are necessarily more complex than ICE alone. Most hybrids eliminate the complicated parts of the transmission -- multiple sets of gears that have to be moved in and out of place. The Toyota hybrid system, for example, has a single set of planetary gears, and Honda has a single speed transmission with just a clutch to engage. They also eliminate starter motors (replaced with a much more robust generator motor), alternators (replaced with a solid state DC-DC converter), and other components hanging off of engine drive belts (electric AC, etc).

Yes, internal combustion engines themselves are complex with all the pistons and valves and injectors and all, but decades of perfecting them have made them extremely reliable with very little routine maintenance. At least from some manufacturers (Honda among them).

For me, and me alone, the PHEV fits my needs extremely well -- I didn't have to buy and don't drag around tens of kilowatts of battery that I don't need most of the time, yet 95% (99+% now during COVID) of my driving is electric. And when we decide to take a road trip, we just fill up and drive like normal.

Nothing wrong with anyone making a different choice, whether that they are fine with a pure BEV (because they don't mind planning longer trips accordingly, or have a 2nd car anyway) or that even a PHEV isn't worthwhile, but for me it's the sweet spot in technology right now.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

It seems obvious that simpler should imply more reliable.

I gave up on that assumption many years ago. My turning point was motorcycles. A 1960’s Triumph or BSA motorcycle were both stone-axe simple and quite unreliable. Then along came the Honda Goldwing, significantly upping the overall complexity. And yet Goldwings were incredibly reliable.

It’s easy to think that any complex mechanical device “has more to go wrong with it”. But when properly designed and executed, I don’t think the assumption of “less reliable” stands up.

 

[Recoil45]

I agree that a BEV with no engine should be less complex, but I don't think ICE+battery hybrids are necessarily more complex than ICE alone. Most hybrids eliminate the complicated parts of the transmission -- multiple sets of gears that have to be moved in and out of place. The Toyota hybrid system, for example, has a single set of planetary gears, and Honda has a single speed transmission with just a clutch to engage. They also eliminate starter motors (replaced with a much more robust generator motor), alternators (replaced with a solid state DC-DC converter), and other components hanging off of engine drive belts (electric AC, etc).

Yes, internal combustion engines themselves are complex with all the pistons and valves and injectors and all, but decades of perfecting them have made them extremely reliable with very little routine maintenance. At least from some manufacturers (Honda among them).

For me, and me alone, the PHEV fits my needs extremely well -- I didn't have to buy and don't drag around tens of kilowatts of battery that I don't need most of the time, yet 95% (99+% now during COVID) of my driving is electric. And when we decide to take a road trip, we just fill up and drive like normal.

Nothing wrong with anyone making a different choice, whether that they are fine with a pure BEV (because they don't mind planning longer trips accordingly, or have a 2nd car anyway) or that even a PHEV isn't worthwhile, but for me it's the sweet spot in technology right now.

With this detailed criteria we both agree. But this is detail that wasn’t included in my reply.


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[Recoil45]

It seems obvious that simpler should imply more reliable.

I gave up on that assumption many years ago. My turning point was motorcycles. A 1960’s Triumph or BSA motorcycle were both stone-axe simple and quite unreliable. Then along came the Honda Goldwing, significantly upping the overall complexity. And yet Goldwings were incredibly reliable.

It’s easy to think that any complex mechanical device “has more to go wrong with it”. But when properly designed and executed, I don’t think the assumption of “less reliable” stands up.

It theory it 100% should. In real life it doesn’t necessarily work out. The reasons why are often explainable. See post from JCA about 100 years of ICE refinement compared to BEV infancy despite Elon hyperbole.


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[coutinpe]

I agree that a BEV with no engine should be less complex, but I don't think ICE+battery hybrids are necessarily more complex than ICE alone. Most hybrids eliminate the complicated parts of the transmission -- multiple sets of gears that have to be moved in and out of place. The Toyota hybrid system, for example, has a single set of planetary gears, and Honda has a single speed transmission with just a clutch to engage. They also eliminate starter motors (replaced with a much more robust generator motor), alternators (replaced with a solid state DC-DC converter), and other components hanging off of engine drive belts (electric AC, etc).

Yes, internal combustion engines themselves are complex with all the pistons and valves and injectors and all, but decades of perfecting them have made them extremely reliable with very little routine maintenance. At least from some manufacturers (Honda among them).

For me, and me alone, the PHEV fits my needs extremely well -- I didn't have to buy and don't drag around tens of kilowatts of battery that I don't need most of the time, yet 95% (99+% now during COVID) of my driving is electric. And when we decide to take a road trip, we just fill up and drive like normal.

Nothing wrong with anyone making a different choice, whether that they are fine with a pure BEV (because they don't mind planning longer trips accordingly, or have a 2nd car anyway) or that even a PHEV isn't worthwhile, but for me it's the sweet spot in technology right now.

Impossible to say it better...