Questioning about Hybrid, especially PHEV

[Robert_Alabama]

Not that it really matters a lot to me right now as I don't have a BEV yet, but...
"Isn’t it less than ideal to keep the battery fully charged?" I try not to keep my Clarity fully charged if not necessary. This means that I usually don't have it sitting overnight fully charged. Most days it is sitting between 60% and 80%. Not sure that it adds much to battery life, but from what I read, it can't hurt. If I had a BEV, I'd probably be even less likely to keep it fully charged all the time just for the possibility that I suddenly decide to take a 300 mile trip. Probably more likely I'd try to charge it only once it got to about 150 miles or so unless I knew I wanted more range. That behavior would burn me whenever I had a sudden need to travel, but it is what I would probably choose to do.

As to the topic of this thread, I own a generation 2 Volt and the 2018 Clarity. The Volt runs 90+% EV, the Clarity more like 60+% (just because it is our travel/vacation vehicle). I like going on vacation/leisure travel and not worrying about where/how I can charge. If I have a charging station handy and price is right (free), then fine, if not, then also fine. I'll probably make the jump for a BEV in the next couple of years, but you can bet it will have at least 300 miles of range, and even then I bet there will be times it will be inconvenient to recharge during longer trips.

 

[Phil_Meyers]

We all know when they say "300 miles of range" that's rarely possible. Figure more realistic is 200 miles.

 

[Landshark]

Since I've been driving a BEV for 7 years, I can assure you that charging after every 50 mile trip is common practice. It's not like topping off your gas car after 50 miles, you just plug in when you get home - it only takes a few seconds.
Even if you forget after a 50 mile day or two, todays BEVs will have more range left that you start with in your PHEV with a full charge.

Of course YOU charge frequently after a 50 mile trip. Your Clarity has less than 100 miles of range and probably only 50-60 in winter.

If your Clarity had 350 miles of EV range, how often would you use gas?

Irrelevant question, but, I’d use less gas than I do in the Clarity PHEV with 47 miles of EV range. However, I have better ways to spend $40K, $80K or $100K, than on a BEV with 350 miles of range. For a bit over $20K I bought a car that has allowed me to reduce my petrol consumption by 80-90%, while still being able to travel as I’m accustomed.

But the statements often made against BEVs often make no sense at all. I don't stop at a gas station top off my gas car every 50 miles, so therefore a BEV driver won't do it at home?

As mentioned, I know plenty of long range BEV owners who don’t charge after every 50 mile trip. I don’t see the point in your question.

The post by coutinpe, which I can’t locate in this thread, was about arriving home, or at a destination with low fuel, or depleted batteries. If it became necessary to immediately make a lengthy trip after arriving with low fuel, it would be quick and easy to add gasoline and be in your way in an ICE vehicle as opposed to waiting for a BEV to charge. The EV range of the PHEV or BEV is completely irrelevant. If you have very little fuel/energy in the tank, you need to fill it up before making a trip.

Which vehicle will have you on the road in less time, a BEV with nearly depleted batteries or a PHEV with the low fuel light on?

 

[turtleturtle]

So it’s getting a little spicy in here.

Can we agree that we purchased the PHEV for different reasons? It worked, when a BEV, HV, or regular gas car wouldn’t do the trick.

For us, I wanted a BEV but my spouse was concerned about running out of electric; this was our compromise.

We all bought it for different reasons. I’m not sure it’s worth arguing who’s reason was the best.

 

[Landshark]

So it’s getting a little spicy in here.

Can we agree that we purchased the PHEV for different reasons? It worked, when a BEV, HV, or regular gas car wouldn’t do the trick.

I like spicy. Many PHEV buyers bought them for the reasons you’ve stated.

The spice isn’t between PHEV owners.

 

[coutinpe]

The point was that scenario pretty much assumes a BEV with the same limited range as your PHEV. A 250, 300 or 400+ mile EV is very unlikely to run into that situation. Plus the newer BEVs will gain the <50 mile total range of the Clarity PHEV in about 5 minutes at a DCFC station.

The point I saw was that my point was called 'invalid" like it didn't happen (a.k.a lying) and the comment wasn't even addresed at me. Nevertheless I would gladly follow you if 1) You show me where the nearest DCFC station is 2) Which is the newer BEV that allows to get 50 miles in 5 minutes and how much does it cost so I see if I can afford it. What I have now is what I have now, and I'm glad I had my PHEV offering the backup alternative I needed when I needed. I can't figure out why that was somehow "invalid". You have your opinion, I have mine. I'm a pragmatic person, let's leave it here, I'm not the kind of guy that can't change my mind and won't change the subject.

 

[coutinpe]

So it’s getting a little spicy in here.

Can we agree that we purchased the PHEV for different reasons? It worked, when a BEV, HV, or regular gas car wouldn’t do the trick.

For us, I wanted a BEV but my spouse was concerned about running out of electric; this was our compromise.

We all bought it for different reasons. I’m not sure it’s worth arguing who’s reason was the best.

The problem is that, sadly, many people have forgotten how to agree to disagree. Someone asked what was "better", a BEV or a PHEV. It had a very simple answer: it depends on each person specific needs. At this point we should already be resigned to the fact that there are different points of view because they have different needs.

 

[Domenick]

Hi, friendly neighborhood moderator here.

Just stopping by to remind that we all have different opinions and we should respect each other's, even if we're sure they are clearly wrong. I wish we could all know everything about everything and be right even when we're wrong, but pretty sure only my Mom could do that.

 

[Jimmy Vo]

Hi, since the thread was started by me, I feel I should give my comments since I now own PHEV and BEV. Just got Model Y as a family car.
I think if you look at the threads, all of you have valid points. But, I think you guys are trying to compare apple and orange. PHEV and BEV are not the same, each one has pros and cons, trying to take the pros from one and compare to the other is not a good argument.
One thing I know for sure, if you buy a BEV, you expect to change your behavior of how you handle the vehicle. Don't buy and BEV and expect to keep the same behaviors as you do with ICE/PHEV (like, suddenly my car out of juices, take too much time to charge, how come I have to charge every 50 miles ect...). With BEV, you have to plan, you have to charge every night if it's necessary. If you have a long trip, fully charge your BEV overnight and use plugshare to plan your trip. These things you don't have to do that with ICE/PHEV. But this does not mean ICE/PHEV is better, it all depends on how you look. For example, I rather charge my BEV every night than stopping at the gas station once a week. For others, they might not like to charge every night, they might enjoy going to a gas station and see some ladies pull in a Tesla at the gas station (I am not kidding about this one, I saw them). So, it's pointless to argue.
I can speak from my experience. I would never buy another PHEV, to me, either I do all ICE or all BEV. I admit it was a huge mistake, I should never buy Honda Clarity. I was thinking the like many people, "you can have EV, but in case you need more range, you can have gas". It turned out wrong for my cases. The "in case you need more range" does not apply to me. The reason for that is because of my driving. I found out after 5 months of owning the clarity, I almost never use gas. And if I have to use gas for the long trip (a scenario of "car insurance comparison" from one of the posts), I just rent an ICE car and go, problem solved!
After owning BEV Model Y for 2 weeks, the scenario of "emergency running out of juice" would NEVER happen to me. I have solar, I charge every night, my BEV range is 300+ miles, I plan ahead my trip, that kind of scenario "running out of juice, but I have gas to back up" would NEVER apply to me. That's the reason why I see DuckRidder was frustrating with those arguments. Those arguments would NEVER happen to me and many BEV owners.
So, for people who are thinking about PHEV or BEV, it all depends on your need and your infrastructure surround you. I live in Calfornia, I have solar, charing stations are everywhere, I charge frequently, the scenario "in case I need more range, I have gas as back up" would NEVER happen to me. Do your own research and choose wisely. Don't take advice from anyone in this forum. Don't listen to them about PHEV is better than BEV, or vice versa, BEV is better than PHEV. It all depends on your situation.
In conclusion, although it was a mistake for me to buy PHEV, I have to admit, the Clarity is a GREAT car. I love the car . The car runs great, the range is great for the daily commute.

 

[Landshark]

Don't take advice from anyone in this forum.

Does this mean that we should not take your advice?

We’re all here to share knowledge, information, advice and sometimes opinions. Take from that what you feel is useful. Otherwise, there’s no point to participating on this forum.

 

[Jimmy Vo]

>>"advice and sometimes opinions"
@Landshark , please God, don't advise people . Sharing your knowledge is more than enough already. Please don't advise, I am begging you. Off course, I never advise anyone in my thread, so don't take my advice. Read sharing experience and knowledge and make your own decision.

 

[Landshark]

Please don't advise, I am begging you.

People ask for advice all the time. On this forum and others, at work, at social gatherings, when we had those. Should no one offered advice based on their knowledge and experience and the situation of the person seeking advice? Are you singling me out as someone who should not offer advice? If you don’t like it, don’t follow it.

You offered some good advice in your follow up post. People can learn from that.

 

[Jimmy Vo]

@Landshark , I was kidding, NOT singling you out . I like to joke to make the thread spice up a little bit. But I do think we should emphasize "sharing" instead of "advising" mentallity in this forum. Especially when it comes to choosing a car, the wrong advice is very costly.

 

[Landshark]

Thanks for clarifying.

It is my opinion that offering advice, when asked, and understanding the circumstances of the individual seeking advice, can be beneficial.

I have found, in my experience, that people often ask for advice when what they actually want is for their preconceived notions or existing beliefs to be validated. To the best of my knowledge, this builds a false sense of confidence that the correct decision is being made. I’ve seen plenty of instances where excellent advice was offered from knowledgeable, experienced individuals, but it fell on deaf ears, because it wasn’t what the advice seeker wanted to hear. Quite frequently, poor, and sometimes costly decisions were made as a result.

Just felt like sharing some of my experiences.

 

[LAF]

Hi, since the thread was started by me, I feel I should give my comments since I now own PHEV and BEV. Just got Model Y as a family car.
I think if you look at the threads, all of you have valid points. But, I think you guys are trying to compare apple and orange. PHEV and BEV are not the same, each one has pros and cons, trying to take the pros from one and compare to the other is not a good argument.
One thing I know for sure, if you buy a BEV, you expect to change your behavior of how you handle the vehicle. Don't buy and BEV and expect to keep the same behaviors as you do with ICE/PHEV (like, suddenly my car out of juices, take too much time to charge, how come I have to charge every 50 miles ect...). With BEV, you have to plan, you have to charge every night if it's necessary. If you have a long trip, fully charge your BEV overnight and use plugshare to plan your trip. These things you don't have to do that with ICE/PHEV. But this does not mean ICE/PHEV is better, it all depends on how you look. For example, I rather charge my BEV every night than stopping at the gas station once a week. For others, they might not like to charge every night, they might enjoy going to a gas station and see some ladies pull in a Tesla at the gas station (I am not kidding about this one, I saw them). So, it's pointless to argue.
I can speak from my experience. I would never buy another PHEV, to me, either I do all ICE or all BEV. I admit it was a huge mistake, I should never buy Honda Clarity. I was thinking the like many people, "you can have EV, but in case you need more range, you can have gas". It turned out wrong for my cases. The "in case you need more range" does not apply to me. The reason for that is because of my driving. I found out after 5 months of owning the clarity, I almost never use gas. And if I have to use gas for the long trip (a scenario of "car insurance comparison" from one of the posts), I just rent an ICE car and go, problem solved!
After owning BEV Model Y for 2 weeks, the scenario of "emergency running out of juice" would NEVER happen to me. I have solar, I charge every night, my BEV range is 300+ miles, I plan ahead my trip, that kind of scenario "running out of juice, but I have gas to back up" would NEVER apply to me. That's the reason why I see DuckRidder was frustrating with those arguments. Those arguments would NEVER happen to me and many BEV owners.
So, for people who are thinking about PHEV or BEV, it all depends on your need and your infrastructure surround you. I live in Calfornia, I have solar, charing stations are everywhere, I charge frequently, the scenario "in case I need more range, I have gas as back up" would NEVER happen to me. Do your own research and choose wisely. Don't take advice from anyone in this forum. Don't listen to them about PHEV is better than BEV, or vice versa, BEV is better than PHEV. It all depends on your situation.
In conclusion, although it was a mistake for me to buy PHEV, I have to admit, the Clarity is a GREAT car. I love the car . The car runs great, the range is great for the daily commute.

One variable you forgot to mention is price! With current dealer discounts and tax breaks you can get a Clarity for <$20,000! That is likely $10,000 less than most BEVs.

 

[Recoil45]

Hi, since the thread was started by me, I feel I should give my comments since I now own PHEV and BEV. Just got Model Y as a family car.
I think if you look at the threads, all of you have valid points. But, I think you guys are trying to compare apple and orange. PHEV and BEV are not the same, each one has pros and cons, trying to take the pros from one and compare to the other is not a good argument.
One thing I know for sure, if you buy a BEV, you expect to change your behavior of how you handle the vehicle. Don't buy and BEV and expect to keep the same behaviors as you do with ICE/PHEV (like, suddenly my car out of juices, take too much time to charge, how come I have to charge every 50 miles ect...). With BEV, you have to plan, you have to charge every night if it's necessary. If you have a long trip, fully charge your BEV overnight and use plugshare to plan your trip. These things you don't have to do that with ICE/PHEV. But this does not mean ICE/PHEV is better, it all depends on how you look. For example, I rather charge my BEV every night than stopping at the gas station once a week. For others, they might not like to charge every night, they might enjoy going to a gas station and see some ladies pull in a Tesla at the gas station (I am not kidding about this one, I saw them). So, it's pointless to argue.
I can speak from my experience. I would never buy another PHEV, to me, either I do all ICE or all BEV. I admit it was a huge mistake, I should never buy Honda Clarity. I was thinking the like many people, "you can have EV, but in case you need more range, you can have gas". It turned out wrong for my cases. The "in case you need more range" does not apply to me. The reason for that is because of my driving. I found out after 5 months of owning the clarity, I almost never use gas. And if I have to use gas for the long trip (a scenario of "car insurance comparison" from one of the posts), I just rent an ICE car and go, problem solved!
After owning BEV Model Y for 2 weeks, the scenario of "emergency running out of juice" would NEVER happen to me. I have solar, I charge every night, my BEV range is 300+ miles, I plan ahead my trip, that kind of scenario "running out of juice, but I have gas to back up" would NEVER apply to me. That's the reason why I see DuckRidder was frustrating with those arguments. Those arguments would NEVER happen to me and many BEV owners.
So, for people who are thinking about PHEV or BEV, it all depends on your need and your infrastructure surround you. I live in Calfornia, I have solar, charing stations are everywhere, I charge frequently, the scenario "in case I need more range, I have gas as back up" would NEVER happen to me. Do your own research and choose wisely. Don't take advice from anyone in this forum. Don't listen to them about PHEV is better than BEV, or vice versa, BEV is better than PHEV. It all depends on your situation.
In conclusion, although it was a mistake for me to buy PHEV, I have to admit, the Clarity is a GREAT car. I love the car . The car runs great, the range is great for the daily commute.

I agree with this 100%. Any hybrid is a curse disguise IMO. You may have some initial cost savings, but if you keep the car past warrantee you will give it back in repair costs.

BEV is better but has limitations at this time. For me, I plan to add a BEV as a 6th car sometime in the next 12 months. It will likely be the Ford Mach E and my wife’s primary vehicle. But it will very long time before I adopt a BEV as my primary vehicle.

But it’s a great time to be living in where we have a choice of three completely different vehicle choices.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Landshark]

I agree with this 100%. Any hybrid is a curse disguise IMO. You may have some initial cost savings, but if you keep the car past warrantee you will give it back in repair costs.

There’s really no way to know what the post-warranty repair costs will be on either type of car. We know that batteries degrade and sometimes completely fail in BEV’s. One Clarity owner recently had the 17kWh battery replaced under warranty. Estimated cost would have been $6500 otherwise. What would the replacement cost be for a 60kWh or 90kWh battery after the warranty period? Electric motors can fail and so can all the electronic gadgetry that is associated with the technology.

ICE vehicles commonly run 200-300K miles without any major failures. The gas tank and engine will provide the same range year after year. Range will not be reduced by up to 40% in freezing temperatures as is common on a BEV.

BEV is better but has limitations at this time. For me, I plan to add a BEV as a 6th car sometime in the next 12 months. It will likely be the Ford Mach E and my wife’s primary vehicle. But it will very long time before I adopt a BEV as my primary vehicle.

It is interesting that you say a BEV is better, then go on to say that they have limitations and it will be a very long time before you adopt one as a primary vehicle. A BEV may be a better choice for some. It isn’t better for everyone.

 

[Recoil45]

I think your looking for something I’m not saying.

ICE cars are more complex than BEV. ICE plus BEV (aka hybrid) is more complex than than ICE alone and will eventually have higher repair costs than ICE alone. If you disagree with that then we simply go on in disagreement.

I have owned several ICE vehicles that that gone 250k plus with very minimal repairs. I got rid of them not because of mechanical issues, but because they looked run down from an atheistic standpoint.

I will never buy a hybrid.

I will some day own a BEV because I believe they are better than hybrids, but not until it’s right for me. It’s not currently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I got rid of them not because of mechanical issues, but because they looked run down from an atheistic standpoint.

That’s a factor I never considered!

 

[Landshark]

ICE cars are more complex than BEV. ICE plus BEV (aka hybrid) is more complex than than ICE alone and will eventually have higher repair costs than ICE alone. If you disagree with that then we simply go on in disagreement

I won’t debate which is more complex. However, a BEV may be more complex than you imagine.

My point is that no one can predict, with any degree of certainty, which vehicle will have higher post-warranty repair costs over the lifetime of the vehicle. You may disagree with that.