NHTSA : 2018 HONDA CLARITY=54 COMPLAINTS

[2002]

But what people report is not always what happened. It's just what they remember happening. Just as the auto driver reports they did not see the motorcyclist, when in fact the motorcyclist was there. This seems a possibility to me in some cases...not saying all, and just an opinion.

I was at first hesitated to post all eighteen reports but the reason that I did was so that it would be clear that this is not something that people are imagining or misremembering otherwise the symptoms would not be so consistent. Many stated specifically that pressing the accelerator caused the engine to rev higher, others said only that the accelerator pedal was not responsive and I don't think it's overly presumptuous to assume that they actually did step on the accelerator pedal, which is what almost anyone will do when their car slows to 30 mph on the freeway. Yes people can remember things differently than they really happened, but eighteen different people, and many of them on multiple occasions? I know you are only saying that maybe some of them may have misremembered and actually caused the problem themselves by taking their foot off the pedal when they heard the engine revving. If there were only one or two reports that might be something to consider, but when we see eighteen different reports stating nearly the same thing it is compelling evidence that most if not all of them experienced it exactly as they stated.

FYI I extracted out just the specific text in each report that stated the symptom, the actual reports sometimes include more background on the situation. I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read the actual reports, as I mentioned they are not all under the same categories so you have to poke around a little bit.

 

[2002]

Again, I said it's very possible some of the folks have legitimate drivability issues as these are complex machines and sh!t happens but several of these reports read more like newbie issues with a powertrain they don't yet fully understand how it works.

None of the reports sounded to me like it was their misunderstanding of how the car works that caused their car to suddenly be incapable of maintaining speed or accelerating.

I suggest anyone who hasn't yet done so to not go on anyone's opinion including mine, go the site and read the reports for yourself. If you read them and think many or most are due to people not understanding how the car works then we have VERY different opinions on the reports and I don't think we will convince each other since there is no way to prove either opinion.

 

[DucRider]

This type of thing is one of the reasons that PHEV owners make the move to 100% electric. The added complexity of having what amounts to two complete drive systems in the car creates many more opportunities for issues. There are often design choices/compromises needed to get both systems to fit and work together.
A 100% electric drive train is pretty dead simple, with magnitudes fewer moving parts and much simpler software requirements. this is not to say the BEV's never have issues, but many that obtain close to 100% EV mode in a PHEV decide that hauling around an ICE for occasional use (and/or security blanket) isn't worth the trade offs of reduced range and efficiency coupled with increased maintenance/complexity.

 

[KClark]

...many that obtain close to 100% EV mode in a PHEV decide that hauling around an ICE for occasional use (and/or security blanket) isn't worth the trade offs of reduced range and efficiency coupled with increased maintenance/complexity.

I would have gladly bought a BEV since I agree it's simpler, more efficient, needs much less maintenance and will probably last longer. But I didn't because you can't buy any BEV for $21k which is what I paid for my Clarity after rebates. BEVs are hot and in limited supply, no one is discounting them from their already much higher base prices. PHEVs are not hot and every dealer I contacted was willing to discount their Claritys from an already much lower MSRP than any BEV on the market. For me that was the bottom line. When, or if, BEVs become as cheap as my Clarity I will be first in line to buy one.

 

[Ohliuw]

I think OP is actually making a good point - it’s good to be aware that this could happen to someone driving the car and that there would be solid arguments (by citing the complaints) for someone to have it fixed by the manufacturer for their particular vehicle should it happen to them.

Hopefully it was in some early models and they have taken car if it (maybe with software update?)

 

[Ohliuw]

I would have gladly bought a BEV since I agree it's simpler, more efficient, needs much less maintenance and will probably last longer. But I didn't because you can't buy any BEV for $21k which is what I paid for my Clarity after rebates. BEVs are hot and in limited supply, no one is discounting them from their already much higher base prices. PHEVs are not hot and every dealer I contacted was willing to discount their Claritys from an already much lower MSRP than any BEV on the market. For me that was the bottom line. When, or if, BEVs become as cheap as my Clarity I will be first in line to buy one.

This! You could only get basic Civic or Corolla at that price...

Plus not everyone needs 400km electric range, most people would be happy with all electric commute while still having the option to go on a longer trip without the need to worry when and where to stop etc etc.

It’s really up to the individual needs, I think long range PHEV like Clarity is good option for the next 10+ years until the EVs become cheaper, better and worry free...

 

[2002]

This type of thing is one of the reasons that PHEV owners make the move to 100% electric. The added complexity of having what amounts to two complete drive systems in the car creates many more opportunities for issues. There are often design choices/compromises needed to get both systems to fit and work together.
A 100% electric drive train is pretty dead simple, with magnitudes fewer moving parts and much simpler software requirements. this is not to say the BEV's never have issues, but many that obtain close to 100% EV mode in a PHEV decide that hauling around an ICE for occasional use (and/or security blanket) isn't worth the trade offs of reduced range and efficiency coupled with increased maintenance/complexity.

I think factually what you said is quite correct, however the same can be said of any hybrid, a PHEV just adds a larger battery that has to be squeezed in somewhere, more cooling needed, and a charging mechanism. But the complexity is in the engineering, the driver can still drive it like a regular car which is really a requirement in the modern world. The percentage of people who know how to drive a stickshift is now less than 20%. And certainly most people driving today never had to manually set the choke. So cars are made to be as automated and easy to drive as possible, although often with additional controls and modes that drivers who want to have more involvement can use, like the HV button, which is optional and certainly not required to know how it works to drive the car.

So yes the additional complexity is there but it can be managed, as it has been with other hybrids, eighteen reports is not a lot although presumably there are others that weren't reported to NHTSA. And based on the dates of the reports hopefully the problem is slowly going away either through software updates or by replacement of parts for those who have the problem. We just don't know yet since most people who experience the problem seem to have their complaints dismissed out of hand. It's a serious and potentially dangerous problem so while it's good that it seems to be small in number, I really hope that the problem has been figured out and is being fixed for those who have experienced it.

 

[Robert_Alabama]

I agree that some of these may be real problems due to real broken/misbehaving hardware or software. I do however think some are due to not understanding the car. The loss of power issue with a depleted battery isn't just a Clarity thing. The Volt will also "misbehave" if it believes it has overly depleted the battery. I have had the "propulsion limited" message before and on an interstate highway, that can get interesting. After one occurrence, I made sure I never depleted the battery fully until the end of a trip where I would charge at the destination. I would rather arrive with a mile or two left on the battery than to risk the loss of power due to a fully depleted battery.

 

[2002]

I agree that some of these may be real problems due to real broken/misbehaving hardware or software. I do however think some are due to not understanding the car. The loss of power issue with a depleted battery isn't just a Clarity thing. The Volt will also "misbehave" if it believes it has overly depleted the battery. I have had the "propulsion limited" message before and on an interstate highway, that can get interesting. After one occurrence, I made sure I never depleted the battery fully until the end of a trip where I would charge at the destination. I would rather arrive with a mile or two left on the battery than to risk the loss of power due to a fully depleted battery.

Not trying to argue but just to help me understand other viewpoints can you give examples of any that sound like they are not actually having extreme loss of power but are instead just confused by hearing high revs. Not all of them quantify with mph but all of the descriptions seem to be describing something much more critical than just a noisy engine or not having as much power as they normally do.

 

[Robert_Alabama]

I'm saying that if you fully deplete the battery while driving the car and then need full power (battery and ICE combined), eventually the car will have to limit power. I don't know how many of these could be due to that, but I suspect some.

 

[DucRider]

I'm saying that if you fully deplete the battery while driving the car and then need full power (battery and ICE combined), eventually the car will have to limit power. I don't know how many of these could be due to that, but I suspect some.

A car that is functioning properly and as designed should never be limited to speeds of 10-20 mph. Particularly if this occurs suddenly while traveling at freeway speeds. Falling into a "limp mode" when a problem is encountered as a way to get to a safe place before stopping is acceptable, but the reporting parties neveri never indicate any error messages showing, hence the car thinks everything is working as intended.
Many forum members report not having to monitor mode and battery life in order for the car to function normally - full power on the freeway, climbing hills, etc. No need to "conserve the battery" to get full power. Honda's own advertising says "Running out of charge is not the end of the world. Runs on electric, has gas when you need it."

I have been a strong proponent of the theory that many of the complaints related to engine revving/noise are related to the disconnect between throttle position and engine speed, but these reports of severe power loss are another matter and should never occur just because someone starts the car and drives it "like a normal car" without hitting certain buttons if they are going to be doing certain things (driving up a hill, ie)

 

[Robert_Alabama]

@DucRider, I loved the bolded "never" and I agree. In truth, I don't believe all the complaints are without exaggeration. Also, I never said I all could be dismissed, I said some. I think "some" by definition is just plural, not implying even most, but more than a few. But be that as it may, only the true witnesses know what they perceive to have happened. I can only say that if I had any of these instances to the extreme extent described, and if the dealer was no help, I wouldn't waste time making a complaint, I'd trade the car and never look at buying another. If you want the last word, feel free to rant.

 

[craze1cars]

I'm saying that if you fully deplete the battery while driving the car and then need full power (battery and ICE combined), eventually the car will have to limit power.

I’ll disagree with this. I drove my Clarity from Indiana on an 800+ mile single day drive out west...ended up somewhere in Kansas that day, cruise control set at 80 mph all day and generally uphill as we got into the foothills, and into a really stiff 30 mph headwind as well. The car was working hard. I left Indiana in EV and never touched a button all day. Within 40 miles the battery was at 2 bars and HV automatically kicked in. The next 760 plus miles I just drove it. Engine was racing a fair amount of the way but mpg was in the mid to low 30s for the most part and car never had any loss of power. Just for kicks I would periodically drop my foot to the floor at 80mph to see what the car had left in the tank, and there was always some reserve power to allow it to accelerate reasonably from that speed, the engine just raced faster.

I fully believe and have proven the Clarity engine/generator has enough output to maintain speed and power on this car indefinitely in all driving conditions, even after battery is down to 2 bars for an extended length of time. Later on that eventual 4,500 road trip with only a half dozen charge opportunities I climbed to the top of some 12,000 ft mountain passes in Colorado and also some of those were when the car had long been down to 2 bars on the battery. Again no loss of power ever and the car ran like a 4,000 lb 4 cylinder car would be expected to run up the mountain...at high revs. If I floored it climbing a huge mountain at altitude with low battery, it accelerated slowly as it should.

I say if a Clarity legitimately loses power at any battery level, in any mode, that car simply has a defect. I’m glad mine does not have this defect and I have certainly pushed the limits of what most would expect this underpowered car to be capable of...I’m grateful mine is working well at all times. Has almost 20k miles on it now and has never been back to the dealer since purchase date.

It is an often repeated misconception on this website, but I know for a fact that you absolutely do not have to push any buttons or keep reserve in the battery, or drive in a certain way, to get up hills or mountains and always have max acceleration power at every moment. You can simply drive this car and ignore all buttons and modes. If you need to go faster, just put the go pedal to the floor like any other car. If the car doesn’t react to this and accelerate, the car has a defect that needs repair. It really is that simple. Yes the engine will rev at odd times in a non linear fashion if you drive like this. But the car will drive and accelerate normally no matter what.

 

[Robert_Alabama]

@craze1cars, you win. I'm dumb and I quit. Go ahead and deplete the battery completely and then ask for some serious continuous acceleration or climb a good mountain at 70mph or even 80mph as you describe. I'm sure it will work out just fine. I won't do it. The 1.5 L engine alone isn't going to win any awards on power and this car is pretty heavy. It is not how anyone with knowledge would tell you to drive the car and I believe doing so invites trouble. Now I really am done with this thread.

 

[Ryan C]

I was shocked at how little the dealerships knew about these vehicles. Not only could they not describe how the systems work but none of them ever had had the battery charged for the test drive. I do recall having a very strong fear response testing driving one at about 20 miles an hour with zero battery and the ICE surged suddenly without any pedal input from me. My instinctive response was similar to missing a shift in a manual while pushing the gas and hearing the engine rev too high. I’m that case it was loud and jarring because I wasn’t expecting it. I consider myself a fairly logical person but I was confused the first week of driving the car to the point I didn’t believe the car could drive at highway speeds under battery power. I have also already had a random check engine light come on and cycle off. I am glad these forums are here to ease my concern. I will be carrying a code reader with me to be able to check codes. My feeling so far is that the car is glitchy and that most problems seem to be more of a software bug rather than a mechanical failure. I’ve had the car two week and just today received an email from Honda that provided the first decent video I’ve seen describing the different drive modes.

 

[fotomoto]

A car that is functioning properly and as designed should never be limited to speeds of

Even BEV's can have this happen. Drive one too hard, charge too much in the heat, etc and either the battery or inverter overheats and the car enters a protection mode in some form that limits performance. From an engineering standpoint, building an HEV, PHEV, or BEV drivetrain to exceed every driving scenario is just too expensive and/or heavy.

 

[DucRider]

Even BEV's can have this happen. Drive one too hard, charge too much in the heat, etc and either the battery or inverter overheats and the car enters a protection mode in some form that limits performance. From an engineering standpoint, building an HEV, PHEV, or BEV drivetrain to exceed every driving scenario is just too expensive and/or heavy.

Nice job truncating the post and ignoring the 10 - 20 mph part.
I know of no BEV that has ever had any of the issues you list restrict speed to any significant degree. Certainly not to 10-20 mph. If have a link to any example of this, please share.
The closest scenario to that is running out of fuel, and most EV's will first warn, then reduce power (but not to the 10 mph mark), then eventually enter "turtle mode" that is somewhere in that 10-20 mph range. Running out of gas in an ICE vehicle is much more sudden and dangerous (but it is easier to remedy the "out of fuel" situation)
Driving too hard or charging in the heat may very slightly reduce the performance in some EV's.
No vehicle, regardless of power train, should ever suddenly enter a mode that limits speeds to 20 mph or less while driving under commonly encountered conditions (unless there is a malfunction of some sort).

 

[fotomoto]

Nice job truncating the post and ignoring the 10 - 20 mph part.

It was on purpose as I was speaking to your absolutism of never and not one specific incident.

I know of no BEV that has ever had any of the issues you list restrict speed to any significant degree

Teslas can't complete more than a few laps without going into protection mode except for the super high dollar Performance models. Should all Teslas be built to that standard? Leaf's suffer from RapidGate and can't take successive full speed DC charges due to overheating. Plenty of owners consider that a "significant degree" when trying to travel long distances.

 

[DucRider]

Teslas can't complete more than a few laps without going into protection mode except for the super high dollar Performance models. Should all Teslas be built to that standard? Leaf's suffer from RapidGate and can't take successive full speed DC charges due to overheating. Plenty of owners consider that a "significant degree" when trying to travel long distances.

Just as I thought, no examples of a max speed of 10-20 mph....

 

[Lowell_Greenberg]

@craze1cars, you win. I'm dumb and I quit. Go ahead and deplete the battery completely and then ask for some serious continuous acceleration or climb a good mountain at 70mph or even 80mph as you describe. I'm sure it will work out just fine. I won't do it. The 1.5 L engine alone isn't going to win any awards on power and this car is pretty heavy. It is not how anyone with knowledge would tell you to drive the car and I believe doing so invites trouble. Now I really am done with this thread.

You have a number of things going on at once in this thread- adding to the confusion. First, I agree in driving the car in hybrid mode for trips that will exceed the cars EV range, and avoiding "full" battery drain (the car probably won't permit 100% drain). Second, some of the NHTSA reports are for cars with legitimate defects. Other reports could be a user's misunderstanding of how the powertrain works. Third, from a marketing perspective, no automaker would probably want to explicitly say that one risks a speed reduction driving under any circumstances, even when, as is the case with a PHEV, there is still gas in the tank. I haven't experienced the last with the Clarity- but it logically seems possible if the car's battery has two bars and is going up a steep incline at high speeds. It is equally possible the engine will simply (noisely) rev at high rates to compensate and maintain the car's speed.

There are tradeoffs in any automotive design and modern cars can lose power for any combination of mechanical and non-mechanical reasons. The days of bullet proof cars that require no particular care or thought to drive are dwindling fast.

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