MSRP divided by max range = cost per mile.

THe biggest issues IMO with these small battery EV’s and travel is their 50kW DCFC maximum. How can I pay the same to fill up a 28kW battery as someone with a 300kW maximum fill capacity? In per minute areas (isn’t necessarily state by state), that pricing hurts. If the Mini SE could take 100kW it would take 10 mins less with the linear decrease in charge rates 0-80%. Same with the bolt. 40+ minutes 0-80 !? Absolutely insane with a 120 mile highway range.

we did a road trip in the mini with bicycles on the back and we’re getting 70-80 miles highway at 60 mph. Charge 40 mins and drive another 1 hr 15 mins. I could deal with bolt range as my only car if it could fast charger at twice the capacity.
 
Faster charging speeds would go a long way to alleviate the short range of the Mini, at least for those infrequent longer trips, as short range is just not a good thing for longer trips no matter the charge speed as the frequency of stops is too high. It’s also a problem that in some places chargers are not close enough to each other to do a highway speed trip in the Mini (try Oklahoma City to Albuquerque on ABRP).
Anything less than an average of 10kW of charging per 5kWh of battery pack is problematic.
Meaning the Mini should average 60kW across the pack.
The Bolt should average at least 130kW
A Tesla Model Y LR should average 150kW

But I think the Mini and even the Tesla struggle to teach 80% of that and the Bolt isn’t even close.

And yes, charging for power delivered by the minute is all kinds of wrong.
 
AndysComputer said:
Faster charging speeds would go a long way to alleviate the short range of the Mini, at least for those infrequent longer trips, as short range is just not a good thing for longer trips no matter the charge speed as the frequency of stops is too high. It’s also a problem that in some places chargers are not close enough to each other to do a highway speed trip in the Mini (try Oklahoma City to Albuquerque on ABRP).
Anything less than an average of 10kW of charging per 5kWh of battery pack is problematic.
Meaning the Mini should average 60kW across the pack.
The Bolt should average at least 130kW
A Tesla Model Y LR should average 150kW

But I think the Mini and even the Tesla struggle to teach 80% of that and the Bolt isn’t even close.

And yes, charging for power delivered by the minute is all kinds of wrong.
Click to expand...

as far as I understand that, applying for my own municipalities DC fast charge station, it’s a state by state PUC (Utility) lobby issue, and it’s going to take a lot of lobbying against the PUC to only charge fairly per kW and not per minute… or at least charge a fair rate per kW per minute. Not just an across the board $0.30 per min some places across NY state gouged us for.

Charging demand cost is Uber expensive too, and should be priced accordingly for those who can afford 175kW+ vehicles.
 
Interesting metric with the kW per kWh pack size. Not sure where it comes from?

lucid air dream and Mini Cooper cost the same to fill up but are worlds apart in range .
 

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AndysComputer said:
Faster charging speeds would go a long way to alleviate the short range of the Mini, at least for those infrequent longer trips, as short range is just not a good thing for longer trips no matter the charge speed as the frequency of stops is too high. It’s also a problem that in some places chargers are not close enough to each other to do a highway speed trip in the Mini (try Oklahoma City to Albuquerque on ABRP).
Anything less than an average of 10kW of charging per 5kWh of battery pack is problematic.
Meaning the Mini should average 60kW across the pack.
The Bolt should average at least 130kW
A Tesla Model Y LR should average 150kW

But I think the Mini and even the Tesla struggle to teach 80% of that and the Bolt isn’t even close.

And yes, charging for power delivered by the minute is all kinds of wrong.
Click to expand...
Oh I misunderstood this. 60kW for the whole charging curve. Oh absolutely I agree. I assume that would mean the mini’s max capability would be bumped up to 70-90 kW… this would help a lot, even with an early charge taper.
Tesla has always had that advantage, but they also have a bulletproof DC fast charge network no one else does. Wish we could justify one!
 
Urbanengineer said:
lucid air dream and Mini Cooper cost the same to fill up but are worlds apart in range .
Click to expand...
That graph seems to reveal the big lie a lot of BEV manufacturers are telling. The max charge rate is a pointless metric if the charge rate drops quickly, like in the example of the Lucid which seems to drop fast in rate after 20% SoC. The SE, on the other hand, stays close to 50 kW until about 80% SoC, so even though it's a lower max rate it charges relatively quickly.
 
AndysComputer said:
It’s also a problem that in some places chargers are not close enough to each other to do a highway speed trip in the Mini (try Oklahoma City to Albuquerque on ABRP).
Click to expand...

New Mexico and Oklahoma (Texas too!) EA chargers should at least have better tiered pricing rates for by the minute charging. Maybe include a low 1-50kW at $0.08/min instead of the $0.16/min 1-90kW and $0.32/min 1-350kW (25% EA member discount not included).

Edit: It's about $0.93USD/kWh (0.69GBP/kWh) for IONITY 1-350kWh so I hope you enjoy those EA prices!
 
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The metric of X kW of charge rate per kWh of pack size is just something I came up with based on the fact that you can naturally charge larger packs at a higher rate than small ones.
When I see cars with larger pack sizes than the Mini but not a commensurate increase in average charge rate I feel the manufacturer has screwed up.
The Mini, despite only having a peak charge rate of 50kW actually holds it (assuming reasonable weather) to nearly 80% which is a great thing. Hence 10% to 80% is around 30 minutes or just under and in my view that’s perfectly acceptable. It’s not good enough to turn the mini into an acceptable regular road tripper but driving 100 miles to somewhere, letting it charge for 30mins while eating lunch or shopping and driving 100 miles back is very reasonable.
Now for a car with 2.5 times the battery capacity and the ability to drive over 200 miles (2.5 or 3 hours) I’d want to see an average charge rate of 125kW from 10% to 80% in order that the charging stop remains at 30mins. But many cars with ~72kWh of battery can’t manage an average 125kW charge rate in such a session. That is frustrating. And as someone pointed out, these “peak” charging speeds are utterly pointless metrics.Joe Public will simply hear the 300kW part vs another cars 150kW and assume he will spend half as long charging which is nowhere near the case.
 
As for charging per minute vs per kWh, it’s my understanding this is due to local laws that prohibit charging for kWh to utilities which the charging networks are not. (But arguably should be).
So picking a rate based on the average actual kW charge rate on their networks to try and make it as fair as they can when converted to per minute is pretty much all they can do.
Sucks if your car charges at a slower kW than average, and is great if it is faster than average.
Not sure what else they can do though other than get the law changed…
 
AndysComputer said:
As for charging per minute vs per kWh, it’s my understanding this is due to local laws that prohibit charging for kWh to utilities which the charging networks are not. (But arguably should be).
So picking a rate based on the average actual kW charge rate on their networks to try and make it as fair as they can when converted to per minute is pretty much all they can do.
Sucks if your car charges at a slower kW than average, and is great if it is faster than average.
Not sure what else they can do though other than get the law changed…
Click to expand...

I've watched many youtube vids on people road tripping their EV's and what seems prevalent is that a lot of chargers/cars do not charge up to the rated capacity of either one.
 
Almost Green said:
I've watched many youtube vids on people road tripping their EV's and what seems prevalent is that a lot of chargers/cars do not charge up to the rated capacity of either one.
Click to expand...

Same here.

The chargers essentially have a maximum amperage rating and to get the full kW rating you need the corresponding level of battery voltage. Most don’t line up.
On top of that battery cell temperature is rarely ideal and Tesla seem to be one of the few with an effective pre-conditioning system but even then their average charging speed isn’t amazing by todays standards.
I do see some cars which do charge quicker than Teslas but too often the conditions aren’t right and they cold gate or rapid gate as Bjorn Nyland points out.
Mind you, I did hear that 25% of chargers in the UK are out of order at any given time and that is far more concerning given the lack of moving parts and low usage they see…
 
Instead of more DC fast chargers, I'd rather have a more robust train network where you could load your vehicle on the train and have it Level 2 charged while you are onboard. Even trains at 75mph would be great.
 
teslarati97 said:
Instead of more DC fast chargers, I'd rather have a more robust train network where you could load your vehicle on the train and have it Level 2 charged while you are onboard. Even trains at 75mph would be great.
Click to expand...
This is a really important, and neglected option. I would rather have a medium distance rail service so reliable and frequent that I needn't remember the schedule.

A recent trip into Cambridge (ironically, to buy a car) illustrated why rail is superior, during rush hour.

I think out bias has tipped to prefer ownership, even when the alternative means lower costs out of pocket.
 
Better public transit 100x over car improvements, but dang that would be wild. The US has a chance with all this infrastructure money to build a high speed rail network. We can only hope.

good discussion everyone.

My biggest annoyance with the per min option is as mentioned above, less charge rate than advertised in adverse weather conditions, but you still pay for it when it’s not ideal. More to pump gas slowly than quickly? Blasphemy.

I’m just a hopeful idiot that Tesla will eventually open the supercharger network. Even at $0.50, Id select my routes based on that network because of the port availability and uptime.
 
Puppethead said:
That graph seems to reveal the big lie a lot of BEV manufacturers are telling. The max charge rate is a pointless metric if the charge rate drops quickly, like in the example of the Lucid which seems to drop fast in rate after 20% SoC. The SE, on the other hand, stays close to 50 kW until about 80% SoC, so even though it's a lower max rate it charges relatively quickly.
Click to expand...

It is an interesting “lie,” but it really does shorten those 20-80% (or less % charges) when road tripping. Tesla does a good job of 15-25 minute stops using their trip planner. They stop you with lower battery more often instead of for longer.
I feel like Andy’s ratio is good, and as a base 100kW should be a peak minimum, even if it tapers.
 
It's much easier for European drivers to use the supercharger network as the Teslas use CCS type 2 and not their proprietary port.

I recall many years ago there's a fine print in Tesla along the lines of waiving all future legal claims against Tesla in exchange for supercharger access (along with cost sharing for other automakers).
 
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