Most Plug-in hybrid owners don't plug in....

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R P said:
Then I test drove a Kona BEV, and the power and nimbleness quickly turned me off the gutless PHEVs of that time.
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Most Americans now have the opposite view:

Ford scraps all-electric SUV plan, saying drivers want hybrids​



EV sales are in the tank. So what happens next?​



Tesla is saying goodbye to 2 of its EV models. As sales and deliveries fall, Elon Musk is focusing on this instead​


The carmaker used its quarterly earnings report to describe itself as a ‘physical AI company.’ So far, investors don’t seem rattled by the pivot.

 
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John321 said:
The carmaker used its quarterly earnings report to describe itself as a ‘physical AI company.’ So far, investors don’t seem rattled by the pivot.
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No one seems rattled by what appears to be certifiable nut jobs running major corporations and many countries either. Everything should be fine once he builds his safe space on the moon. I thought he was getting in a little deep when he wanted to do it on Mars.
 
As noted above multiple times, it really does depend on each owner's circumstances. Having two Claritys continues to be very convenient and cost effective for us. High electricity costs here in California ($0.47 per kW average last year for our household) have minimal impact because we have a net-zero rooftop solar system, so charging both cars costs nothing. Our first Clarity (bought in December 2018 and used occasionally for cross-country trips) has been driven 66% EV over 63k miles; the second Clarity (bought in February 2025) is 88% EV over the 8k miles we've put on it (53k total on the odometer). Of course, we did have to pay for our rooftop solar but, based on my calculations, we'll hit total return-on-investment for that sometime in the next few months. Given our circumstances, both PHEVs and solar have been exceptionally cost-effective. As an added bonus, the Claritys have been exceptionally comfortable, efficient, and easy to maintain cars. While it certainly won't be the case for everyone, it sure hit the sweet spot for us
 
Landshark said:
No one seems rattled by what appears to be certifiable nut jobs running major corporations and many countries either. Everything should be fine once he builds his safe space on the moon. I thought he was getting in a little deep when he wanted to do it on Mars.
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I wish America had many more of these "nut jobs" who provide good paying jobs, great products, productivity, wealth etc. to their country and fellow citizens.

... and wish America had many less people who take, take, take and take more from our country but never give anything back!
 
John321 said:
I wish America had many more of these "nut jobs" who provide good paying jobs, great products, productivity, wealth etc. to their country and fellow citizens.

... and wish America had many less people who take, take, take and take more from our country but never give anything back!
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Indeed. The world needs more people who donate a minuscule fraction of a percentage of their net worth to charities, most of which goes to organizations they control. Combine that with the warm relationships with employees and an impeccable record with the NLRB, what’s not to love?

Perhaps his ultimate AI achievement will be to eliminate the need for him to receive a pay package. That would be efficient.
 
Why didn't you mention all the people who have gainful employment, benefits and job security from his many enterprises?
Why didn't you mention his company's positive contribution to society - starlink communications, space travel, reliable land transportation, making electric transportation for many a reality, robotics etc.?
He is providing good jobs and positive contributions to society each day.

If that wasn't enough he selflessly volunteered to uncover the tons and tons of waste and fraud in our government.
Just look at the unending fraud recently exposed in Minnesota and now California. Add on New York, Massachusetts etc money laundering billions and billions of taxpayer dollars to fraudulent payment for housing, food, education etc to illegal migrants.

Musk probably has personal problems but I would guess no more than most - that doesn't take away from the good he does.
Compare his positive impacts on society with what you have done and you will quickly see how your contributions are lacking in the comparison.
How many companies have you started to provide jobs to your fellow man?

For myself I give back to society through volunteerism, charitable contributions, Military Service for the United States and raising our children to be productive citizens while obeying laws and trying to be a good example - but my contributions to society pale in comparison to individuals like Mr. Musk.

... but I get it... you have a political axe to grind and are blinded by political nonsense to being able to see both sides or view a person objectively.

at this point I'll disconnect from further conversations with you - people responding as you have are a dime a dozen - they have no interest in listening or constructive communication - their only concern is shouting their nonsense out at others while never taking the time to actual listen to what someone may be saying or critical evaluating people and facts.




The Giving Pledge: A commitment to give​

The Giving Pledge is a commitment by some of the world’s wealthiest individuals and families to dedicate the majority of their wealth to addressing society’s most pressing problems. Started by Warren Buffett and Bill and Melinda Gates in 2010, the initiative encourages billionaires to pledge at least half of their fortunes to charitable causes during their lifetimes or in their wills. Elon Musk joined this esteemed group of philanthropists in 2012.

While Musk’s participation in the Giving Pledge has garnered attention, he has been relatively reserved in terms of publicizing his charitable endeavors compared to some of his billionaire peers. He has often chosen to direct his resources towards innovative solutions to global challenges.

impactwealth.org

Elon Musk Philanthropy: A Visionary’s Impact Beyond Innovation

Elon Musk, the enigmatic entrepreneur and visionary behind companies like Tesla, SpaceX, and Neuralink, has not only revolutionized industries but
impactwealth.org impactwealth.org

1772551062419.webp
 
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I find it sad how many past Musk supporters turned on him and his cars, after all he has done for us who now drive EVs. Would not have happened without him.
 
R P said:
I find it sad how many past Musk supporters turned on him and his cars, after all he has done for us who now drive EVs. Would not have happened without him.
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The money Musk injected into politics resulted in the US government rejecting renewable energy in favor of fossil fuels, and causing severe damage to the market for EVs. It's ironic that the EVs that made Musk rich turned into automotive pariahs, but there's not much evidence he cares about EVs at all anymore. /politics
 
insightman said:
The money Musk injected into politics resulted in the US government rejecting renewable energy in favor of fossil fuels, and causing severe damage to the market for EVs. It's ironic that the EVs that made Musk rich turned into automotive pariahs, but there's not much evidence he cares about EVs at all anymore. /politics
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You have your opinions, they have their facts. Criticism of the idol is likely to result in an onslaught of virtue signaling and a display of ignorant and hypocritical accusations against the offending individual.

These members aren’t even on topic.
 
R P said:
Would not have happened without him.
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It’s difficult to say where the EV market would be today without him. As a point of reference, GM introduced the EV1 in 1996. Mitsubishi, Nissan and some Chinese manufacturers were developing and producing EV’s in the 2000’s. Keep in mind that Tesla sold less than 2500 Lotus platformed Roadsters through 2012.

As mentioned previously, his recent actions may have done more damage to the EV market than all his previous work did to benefit the market. Virtually every manufacturer has EV models in their line up and most are scaling back production of those models or eliminating them entirely.

This is just a different perspective for you to consider and it may help you understand why many of his fans are no longer fans.

This thread began as a discussion based on a comment from an automotive executive who was providing a reason for why her company is considering reducing production of electrified vehicles.
 
Let me put it out there I don't like the Musk of today and his politics and his making it a misery for LGTBQ+ people.
But things are not simple with humans. The initial drive of Tesla I think jump started EVs. But obviously the last year Tesla is down in sales worldwide except may be US. The bulk innovation has moved to China with CATL, BYD etc.
Musk recent politics has contributed to downturn of EV demand in the US ...but we are at war with Iran and if the price of oil keeps being up for 6 months to a year he would have contributed to a ressurgence of EVs !!!

When people say there are people that take take take...show me those people...Profits/innovation at Tesla or SpaceX are due to the ingenuity of engineers and technicians and their pay (you may call it ...well paid) but it is only 20 to 40% of all the money that come in...most goes to money people, investors, to give them more money to suck the ingenuity and labor of the majority. Do you think VCs or Musk knows the details/physics of a hot second stage separation or the chemistry to make a manganese cathode work. So those who have take take take more...and then we blame it on people who contributed in social security etc most of their lives and start claiming ...majority works hard for their money ..in fact works more than their pays and that is how VC's and Musk get richer and richer.
 
tizan said:
Musk recent politics has contributed to downturn of EV demand in the US ...but we are at war with Iran and if the price of oil keeps being up for 6 months to a year he would have contributed to a ressurgence of EVs !!
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Help me out here. Are you suggesting that Musk was involved in the decision to launch military action in Iran?
 
Landshark said:
About 16 million people bought new cars in the US last year, presumably with an average cost near $50K. This happens year after year. We contributed 1 to that number and plan to contribute another this year once we get the Jeep 4xe back from the dealer. Still waiting for the battery to arrive, it’s been over 6 weeks and I’ve opened a case with Customer Care.
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Here's what gemeni AI thinks about the demographic of folks buying 15-16 million cars annually:
"The short answer is
no, we do not get 15–16 million "new" first-time buyers every year. Instead, the market is heavily dominated by a shrinking, affluent "slice" of repeat buyers.
  • The "Wealthy" Cycle: Households earning over $150,000 now purchase 43% of all new cars, up from 30% in 2019. These affluent buyers are more likely to buy a new car every few years, effectively "making up" for lower-income Americans who have been priced out of the new market.
  • Loyalty to New: Among those who currently own a new car, a striking 72% plan to buy new again for their next vehicle. In contrast, only 11% of new vehicle purchases are made by people who did not already have a car in their garage (first-time buyers).
  • Aging Demographic: New car buying is increasingly concentrated among older, wealthier individuals. Adults aged 55 and over now account for nearly half (50%) of all new registrations, while the share of young buyers (18–34) has dropped to under 10%.
  • Fleet Sales: A portion of that 16 million also includes "fleet sales" to rental companies, corporations, and government agencies, which replace their entire inventory on a strict, frequent schedule"
 
I wouldn't say a household making 150k is affluent these days. It's middle class. Maybe even lower middle class. 150k is the new 75k.
2 working folks, 75k a piece is pretty 'easy' to obtain even in service jobs, waiting tables, running a small business, or even early-career office jobs.
I guess certain regions vary.

To compare 150k today to 150k in 2019 doesn't count. Pre-Covid and post-covid money is different.

150k in 2019 was a Director level role salary.
150k in 2026 is pretty much anyone with a bachelors and 3 years experience.
 
Dan Albrich said:
Here's what gemeni AI thinks about the demographic of folks buying 15-16 million cars annually:
"The short answer is
no, we do not get 15–16 million "new" first-time buyers every year.
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What question did you ask AI?

To be clear, I stated that about 16 million people bought new cars last year in the United States. No statement was made with regard to the number of “new” or “first time” buyers who bought new cars last year.

Your short answer is simply arguing against something that wasn’t said.
 

United States Car Debt Bubble​

The United States is currently facing a significant car debt bubble, with auto loan debt surpassing student loans as the second-largest consumer debt category. As of the end of 2024, Americans owed a record $1.66 trillion in auto loan debt, a 20% increase since 2020.
"The U.S. car market faces a perfect storm that is rapidly engulfing ordinary car owners across the country. The clearest sign of this is the rising rate of auto loan borrowers who are falling behind on their monthly payments."

caredge.com

The Auto Loan Crisis Just Hit a 32-Year Record: What It Means for Car Prices

Subprime auto loan delinquencies have hit a 32-year record high. Here's what's driving the crisis, and what it means for car prices in 2026.
caredge.com caredge.com

"The numbers are in, and they’re alarming. Subprime auto loan delinquencies have reached their highest level in 32 years — a record stretching all the way back to January 1994. According to data published by Fitch and analyzed by industry expert Bill Ploog, the January 2026 figures mark a 385-month record high for 60-plus-day past-due delinquencies among subprime borrowers."​


www.roadandtrack.com

Americans Owe a Staggering $1.66 Trillion in Auto-Related Debt, According to New Report

It's not hard to compare the current lending situation to the world before 2008.
www.roadandtrack.com www.roadandtrack.com

Speaking of the Great Recession, auto buyers are also defaulting in their payments in ways we haven’t seen since 2008. Delinquencies on payments are almost on par with pre-crisis figures, and have dramatically outpaced the rates experienced during COVID.​


"Severe auto loan delinquencies are climbing back toward financial-crisis peaks, with outstanding balances surpassing $1.66 trillion and repossessions climbing more than 40% since 2022, according to a new Consumer Federation of America report."


"Americans are missing their car payments at the highest rate in more than 30 years, data shows.
According to Fitch Ratings, 6.56 percent of subprime auto borrowers were are at least 60 days past due on their loans in January, the most since the agency began collecting the data in 1994."

​

www.consumeraffairs.com

Americans losing grip on debt as delinquencies surge and borrowing costs bite

• Rising auto, credit card, and student loan delinquencies signal growing financial strain among U.S. households• Younger and lower-income Americans are
www.consumeraffairs.com www.consumeraffairs.com
"Household debt climbed to a record $18.4 trillion in the second quarter of 2025, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, while the nation’s gross federal debt hit $38 trillion for the first time. The figures highlight mounting strain across every layer of the U.S. economy — from Washington’s balance sheet to families’ credit card bills."

 
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