Love to buy an EV but...

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C02less

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Looking for some advice here. I would love to buy an EV but I am getting discouraged with what I find. My anxieties are listed below:
  • I have been using a Bolt as part of a car share program and its range just barely meets my needs in winter. Trips take longer because I have to stop and recharge en route on some trips. My range anxiety is real and well founded on experience.
  • Every EV manufacturer is having issues or recalls with its batteries. I don't want to be on the hook for replacing a battery or any other super expensive drive component after warranty.
  • Buying new to get the full warranty and to avoid those failing LG cells is super expensive. Used EVs are also surprisingly expensive in my region (BC Canada).
  • Too many horror stories on these forums of an EV being tied up at the dealership for weeks to perform warranty service. There is still a steep learning curve going on for how to look after these cars, I think.
Still, I want to get off fossil fuels and an EV is the final step. What I am looking at currently is:
  • A used Bolt. Typical asking prices are $Cdn25K-ish for a low mileage 2017. I don't dislike the Bolt and they seem like one of the more reliable options. It's a chevy so I assume parts are available as things break.
  • A new Kona. Best case I pay around $Cdn42K-ish for a preferred, net with tax and incentives. I like the Kona, and the winter range and charging speed is better than the Bolt, but $42K for a Hyundai? Really? Used ones are almost as expensive as new where I live so why bother with used.
  • A cheaper ($Cdn10K-ish) EV for short trips and keep renting the car-share Bolt for longer trips. This is the most discouraging option. Fiats have no warranty here, leafs have those bad batteries, and I don't want something too off-beat like an electric smart car or i-meiv.
  • Not a Tesla. Expensive new. Expensive used. Expensive when they break. No thanks, I am a cheapskate :) I am not particularly attracted to Elon Musk, tech cars, or status symbols.
So what's the wisdom from the forum? Based on your ownership experiences what would you recommend for me? Thanks!
 
This is my experience:
  1. End-of-lease, 2014 BMW i3-REx with 6,000 miles - Bought in 2016, it had three years of manufacturer warranty. With a 72 mi EV range, it fully met my Huntsville AL driving requirements. The motorcycle engine would automatically run every 60 days if we didn't go out of town. Cross country, we easily handled 700-750 mi segments in a single day driving it 'motorcycle' style: (1) drive ~1:15; (2) fill 2.3 gallon tank, and; (3) biology break. Seats four and is classified a UFO in Mississippi. Look for 2015 and later as there were weak motor mount bolts in the 2014 model. Expect $15-20k via eBay Motors.
  2. New, 2017 Prius Prime - The 25 mi EV range was a big disappointment in town. Worse, obscure control laws turned on the engine when not desired. It never replaced the BMW i3-REx and was traded in, $18,300, for a Tesla Std Rng Plus Model 3.
  3. 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3 - List price $41,000 reduced by trade-in $18,300 to a net ~$23,000. It now has 38,075 miles and been a wonderful car. The 2014 BMW i3-REx is backup that my girlfriend now drives.
Cross country, pure EV is fun provided the charge rate is fast enough and fast DC chargers are along route. IMHO, anything less than 100 kW peak rate will be a disappointment. For example in 2016, our BMW i3-REx costs $24 electricity charges to drive 120 miles between Nashville and Huntsville. But on gas, the same trip cost $6.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson
 
I share your observation that used EV prices in Canada are crazy high. I wonder if Quebec is contributing to this. It is my understanding that there is a rebate for used Evs as long as they come from outside the province. It think Quebec is sucking up a good number of the EV trade ins. So, you're right. The used prices are high enough you should consider new.

If I were buying a new EV right now I'd go for the Kia Niro. A little more cargo space than the Kona. They are super efficient in the cold and as you live in the BC region I expect the heat pump would meet most of your heating/defrosting needs without having the activate the range killing resistance heater. As a 2018 Leaf S owner I must object to your comment about all Leafs having bad batteries. Simply not so. It was the early ones that ran into trouble. My Leaf is super comfortable and super reliable. Approaching 50,000km and I may have experienced 3 to 5% less range on a full charge than brand new.

I did test drive a Niro in freezing temperature a few months ago. It was showing a few whiskers over 400km range without the heater on and around 374 when heater activated. Not too shabby. I was tempted to go for it but am getting a little turned off by the depreciation whack that occurs with most EVs. I do have a 21 year old Saturn that still works well. I am using it for some out of town trips where I could use the Leaf just to keep the mileage down to help with trade in value when I do move it along.

I applaud your environmental motivations for wanting an EV. You will also be contributing to a more stable and peaceful world. Oil has attracted corruption and mayhem just about everywhere it's found. Some countries are quite ready to go to war to protect their oil interests. You will also be contributing to your local economy as the energy to drive your vehicle will be generated in BC and not some oil baron fiefdom. Good luck.
 
Am in the same spot as OP. But also have a condo parking spot with little chance of getting a plug. And most of our driving is long range highway.

Agree, the Kona is not bad in the winter. But it just doesn't have the range and charging speed we need?/want in the Winter. The cheapest bev that does is the Tesla Model 3 Long Range. A very expensive car.

Another possibility is a PHEV, but I just don't like them. Too complex, neither fish nor fowl. But if $$ were everything, and if a bit more of our driving were short trips, I'd consider the Hyundai Ioniq PHEV

Currently we're "wait and see" as the current car (Chevy Cruze Eco, 36-38mpg) is only 10 yrs old and still very cheap and reliable. And maybe the condo board will have a change of heart.

But if the Cruze were totaled tomorrow, we'd prolly go for the Tesla M3 LR. We've been cheap all our lives, and our kids don't need the money, so WTH. Besides, the wife thinks the Tesla is sexy.
 
C02less said:
Every EV manufacturer is having issues or recalls with its batteries.
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I have not seen that - can you tell me more? The only one I've seen was the Kona.

brulaz said:
And maybe the condo board will have a change of heart.
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Speaking as a fellow condo owner in a building that has little chance of getting a plug.......I am moving to a condo that is more forward thinking and put 2 pay-per-use third party chargers in their visitor parking lot to be used by owners or visitors, and they've budgeted for 6 more.

Generally speaking, I believe driving electric requires a paradigm shift because they're simply not (and I believe will never) allow for long distance driving - especially in cold or hot temperatures - at the same speed as an ICE car without spending more -- either spending more time, or spending more money. If you believe in and want to drive a BEV, you've got to accept you'll have to spend it. I decided (in a condo without home charging) that I was willing and able to spend several hours a week charging my car as the cost of driving electric......I figure that if people spend an hour or two a week in a laundromat, or moving their car around because they don't have a parking spot at their downtown home (my sister), I could spend a couple of hours charging my car for something I want and believe in. I decided that instead of spending an hour sitting in front of my computer at home, I could spend it with my phone or laptop in my car, or maybe reading a book, or chatting on the phone. Once I made that decision in my mind, it became not a big deal to charge my car for that amount of time. As the time increased, though (as my driving patterns changed), I decided I'd rather spend more money than more time, so now I'm shopping for a new BEV -- it will probably be the Tesla Y.
 
At this time, I would not hesitate to recommend the Kona. I just completed a 1600 km round trip in BC with it, all free charging of course. I have had mine almost 2 years now, with just over 30K kms. Working now better than new.
https://insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/bc-hydro-stations.5252/page-8#post-125790
I was a little concerned too, for a while about the battery, but now that they have determined the cause, mitigation, and full remedy (battery replacement), I feel very good about it. That is unlike the Bolt, which also has the same battery manufacture (LG Chem) and problems, incl fires, and so far GM has not committed to replacing them. The Tesla S also used those batteries and Tesla's solution was to lower the capacity (range) through a software change, and no plans to replace the battery. I certainly wouldn't be happy with that. This says a lot about Hyundai, and their commitment to EVs, and wanting to protect their customers and reputation.

I have had very good service from my local Hyundai dealer (in Langley). Car was never in the shop for more than a day, for all the previous software updates and fixes. So I have no complaints at all about that. And when I get the battery replacement (the longer it takes the better), it will be like setting the odometer back to zero. The rest of the car, unlike an ICE car, has very low wear components.

In fact, because of some of the bad press about the battery issues, this might be a best time to get a great deal, or even a used Kona (that will have the battery replaced). Like I said, in all other respects the Kona has been a great car. Here is a real world range test, and the Kona is still among the best with that, too. Hyundai, unlike Tesla, has been very conservative with their range estimates.
https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-range-tested/

So, at this time, as an owner, I more happy with my buying choice, than even after I first bought it.
 
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R P said:
That is unlike the Bolt, which also has the same battery manufacture (LG Chem) and problems, incl fires, and so far GM has not committed to replacing them. The Tesla S also used those batteries and Tesla's solution was to lower the capacity (range) through a software change, and no plans to replace the battery.
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Your information regarding these other manufacturers is incorrect.

GM use LG Chen to manufacture the batteries but the chemistry is their IP and different from Hyundai. Also none of the cells came from the Chinese factory that was misaligning one of the sheets. From their research it’s a completely different issue which they are addressing by adding monitoring FW for detecting cells problems, capacity will not be reduced.

Tesla does not use the same cells in the Model S. They are cylindrical cells with a different chemistry and co-manufactured by Panasonic.

Spreading mis/disinformation does not help the EV community. If anything here I would be much more concerned about how Hyundai’s lack of QA allowed cells with physical defects into their packs!


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The battery issue is overblown. I would just ignore it.

If you buy a Korean car, then expect availability of major parts to be a potential issue since much of the production is going to manufacture new cars. Again, much of this is overblown, but it does suck if it happens to you.
 
bluzer1 said:
Your information regarding these other manufacturers is incorrect.
GM use LG Chen to manufacture the batteries but the chemistry is their IP and different from Hyundai. Also none of the cells came from the Chinese factory that was misaligning one of the sheets. From their research it’s a completely different issue which they are addressing by adding monitoring FW for detecting cells problems, capacity will not be reduced.
Tesla does not use the same cells in the Model S. They are cylindrical cells with a different chemistry and co-manufactured by Panasonic.
Spreading mis/disinformation does not help the EV community. If anything here I would be much more concerned about how Hyundai’s lack of QA allowed cells with physical defects into their packs!
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Well, if you don't believe me, read this. And don't try to split hairs with me, as to exactly what batteries or what the cause of the Bolt and Tesla batteries fires. Hyundai has been very definitive about the cause now, and a remedy is on the way.
https://electrek.co/2020/11/13/gm-recall-chevy-bolt-evs-potential-fire-risk/
Bottom line, Hyundai is doing right with their customers. GM's fix, like Tesla's, is just to reduce battery capacity. I have very little trust in GM (have owned GM vehicles in the past) or Tesla (my son has had ton of problems with his M3). Hyundai has a large dealer network in NA and where I live there are as many Hyundai dealers as there are GM. And only 1 over taxed Tesla service center, and still working on building a 2nd one (close to where I live actually).
 
R P said:
Well, if you don't believe me, read this. And don't try to split hairs with me, as to exactly what batteries or what the cause of the Bolt and Tesla batteries fires. Hyundai has been very definitive about the cause now, and a remedy is on the way.
https://electrek.co/2020/11/13/gm-recall-chevy-bolt-evs-potential-fire-risk/
Bottom line, Hyundai is doing right with their customers. GM's fix, like Tesla's, is just to reduce battery capacity. I have very little trust in GM (have owned GM vehicles in the past) or Tesla (my son has had ton of problems with his M3). Hyundai has a large dealer network in NA and where I live there are as many Hyundai dealers as there are GM. And only 1 over taxed Tesla service center, and still working on building a 2nd one (close to where I live actually).
Click to expand...

The article you list is from last November when they didn’t really know the cause. Much more information was released in the last couple weeks.

Agreed GM has done much in the past to distrust them, though they seem to be improving. Also Tesla service is completely inadequate but improving as they build up the network.

Hyundai also has many issues. Here they would not own up to the several years of blowing engines that were manufactured with metal filings remaining inside. People have had to pay $8k to replace engines or like many scrap the car and lose the entire value. The ministry of transport and class action lawsuits have prevailed but now it will be difficult to collect for those that had the car go for scrap and be crushed.

I’m not promoting any particular manufacture, but Hyundai is definitely not a star here either. If South Korea hadn’t forced a recall locally which left them looking bad had they not done the same for other countries, it would not likely have happened.

Pick your poison but repeating initial uninformed info doesn’t help.


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bluzer1 said:
The article you list is from last November when they didn’t really know the cause. Much more information was released in the last couple weeks.
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OK, if you want to nitpick, here is a later article from a month ago. My point remains, that so far only Hyundai has decided to replace the batteries. Tesla and GM (to this date) have only decided to reduce range.
https://electrek.co/2021/02/18/bolt...are-update-to-fix-battery-fire-risk-in-april/
And BTW, separators were NOT the cause of the Hyundai batteries. It was the folded anode. We don't yet know the exact cause of the other ones, or at least they are not saying.
 
If a smaller car (you mention the Bolt and Prius) works for you, give a look at the Mini Cooper SE. It's one of the least expensive EVs on the market, in fact costing less than the ICE version in the US market with the tax rebate. It uses technology from the BMW i3 (but costs a lot less!) so its EV components have a long history. It has a heat pump and MINI uses CATL batteries, which are less prone to cold weather issues, so it performs surprisingly well in cold weather. This I know from experience, having seen only about 20% drop in range when we had an extended -25 ºF weather spell in February. Most of which was due to needing cabin heat, since heat pumps really can't do much at that temperature.

And oh yeah, not just inexpensive but super fun to drive.
 
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Yes for Hyundai it was the anode, I’d forgotten it was reported as a separator then later the anode.

I’m not trying to nit pick, I’m trying to make clear to readers that the issues are not the same. You seem to be trying to lump them together. Hyundai has a PHYSICAL issue that needs to be addressed. A recall is a must, though it was only done after South Korea forced their hand.

You can’t expect manufacturers to replace the car’s most expensive component when there is no physical issue.

Tesla has had so many updates it’s hard keep track of. They were pushing their cells too hard and have tweaked the charging curve several times. I believe the big one people complained about was a GoM adjustment as it was overly optimistic. Not certain if it resulted in an actual range lost, but I’m sure Tesla owners will correct me if I’m off.

GM only temporarily reduced the range while studying the issue to be on the safe side. It also doesn’t affect current cars, only part ways through the 2019 model year. The new FW is coming out in early April and will fully restore the range.


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bluzer1 said:
I’m not trying to nit pick, I’m trying to make clear to readers that the issues are not the same. You seem to be trying to lump them together. Hyundai has a PHYSICAL issue that needs to be addressed. A recall is a must, though it was only done after South Korea forced their hand.
You can’t expect manufacturers to replace the car’s most expensive component when there is no physical issue.
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My point remains the same, that Hyundai has decided to replace batteries, instead of GM doing a "Non-Physical" software update, which may or may not work. We won't know until later in April when that comes out. We are getting NEW batteries, effectively getting our odometers set back to zero (EVs don't have other major wear components like ICE cars). Tesla and Bolt will be stuck with whatever degradation has already occurred on each owner's car.

Again, I say Hyundai is doing the right thing for their customers, and their reputation, while Tesla and GM are trying to get by with the cheapest option for themselves.
 
R P said:
Again, I say Hyundai is doing the right thing for their customers, and their reputation, while Tesla and GM are trying to get by with the cheapest option for themselves.
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I have to agree with bluzzer1. They doing this because of the Korean government is pressuring them to do it and the earlier monitoring software update didn't prevent another fire.

I don't think this has much to do with Hyundai being a bunch of nice folks.
 
Sorry I’m not trying to take over the OG’s good thread, so last post.

RP you’ve missed the point about PHYSICAL issue again (unless you think GM and Tesla are lying and just trolling).
I feel I’ve brought to light enough of the latest info that the unbiased reader can draw their own conclusions on these separate issues.


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Well, I am done arguing with a nitpicker or trying to split hairs. I am getting a new battery (longer it takes, the better), and I am very happy with Hyundai's decision to replace the batteries, instead of just a software update (the cheap solution).

And yes, Koreans are a very proud people (similar to Japanese in that respect). I have been there on business, and that was very evident. I certainly can't say the same for the domestic manufacturers (from my own experience), and some in EU as well (remember diesel-gate?).
 
Ok I am back. Sorry for the late response. I had to give up my laptop today to a nice lady who does my taxes.

Thanks all for your responses. Paul K suggested a Kia Niro, which I had previously overlooked, so thanks. According to google the Niro uses SK cells. What have those been like?

And Paul sorry for my negative comments about the leaf. Maybe I was misinformed, or took certain anecdotes too seriously. Is there a good way to predict the likelihood of a leaf battery still performing well in 5 years? I see some advertised that say 12/12 bars but will it stay that way?

Regarding the comments on PHEV - not for me. They have the advantages of ICE and EV, but the disadvantages also. I want to eliminate fossil fuels from my life so no thanks.

I believe you that the MINI SE is a fun car. I had a Cooper S and loved it. Unfortunately the MINI SE costs Kona money where I live but only provides 175km range, so nope. Maybe it's cheaper in USA, but car prices just go crazy once they drive across the 49th parallel.
 
SK cells in the Niro and the EU version of the Kona have not been a problem. Just the older Konas, (2019 and some 2020's) with LG Chem batteries.
 
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