Kona is Good but...

[Andy Swarbrick]

Compared with tesla, the kona is worth every penny.

 

[FloridaSun]

Compared with tesla, the kona is worth every penny.

Depends how much value you would give the Teala charging network.. My wife has family in Alton, Texas (near Mission) and there is no DC charger anywhere close. There is however a Tesla Supercharger in McAllen. We can't visit our family there because of lack of DC charging in the Rio Grande Valley. The closest DC charger is a 24kw charger in Corpus Christi at Harley Davidson, 150 miles from Alton..

 

[apu]

Here in Canada the only model 3 for sale that meets the federal $5000 EV incentive criteria is the standard range +, so if you wanted a battery pack size comparable to the Kona you would need to step up to a long range model 3 which ends up being $17K + ~$2K(additional sales tax )more if you include the lost $5 K incentive. I like the model 3 but I don't think its $19K better than the Kona.

 

[SkookumPete]

Here in Canada the only model 3 for sale that meets the federal $5000 EV incentive criteria is the standard range +, so if you wanted a battery pack size comparable to the Kona you would need to step up to a long range model 3 which ends up being $17K + ~$2K(additional sales tax )more if you include the lost $5 K incentive. I like the model 3 but I don't think its $19K better than the Kona.

I thought the incentive applied to all models as long as the cheapest is sub $45k. Hence the Kona Essential which is surely sold at a loss just so the higher trims qualify.

 

[Clamps]

Here in Canada the only model 3 for sale that meets the federal $5000 EV incentive criteria is the standard range +, so if you wanted a battery pack size comparable to the Kona you would need to step up to a long range model 3 which ends up being $17K + ~$2K(additional sales tax )more if you include the lost $5 K incentive. I like the model 3 but I don't think its $19K better than the Kona.

Here in New England, Massachusetts specifically it's a bit different. This is the rundown:

Tesla Model AWD LR

$46990 - MSRP
+ 1200 - Destination/Doc
---------
$48,190 - sub-total
- 2500 - state rebate
---------
$45,690 - total (plus tax and registration)


Hyundai Kona Ultimate

$45470 - MSRP
+ 495 - accessories
+ 1140 - freight
---------
$47105 - sub-total
- 7500 - Federal tax credit
---------
$39605
- 2500 - state rebate
--------
$37,105 - total (plus tax and registration)

Difference $8,585

The Hyundai sales rep did say that he could essentially waive the accessories fee and maybe a touch more but I didn't include that in the breakdown because it's an unknown. However if he is good to his word that would make it a $9,000 difference.

The cars aren't really priced that far apart, if it weren't for the Federal tax credit on the Hyundai then they are only a few thousand apart. From an insurance standpoint there is hardly any difference. The Model 3 is $700/year and the Kona Electric is $681/year.

 

[electriceddy]

I thought the incentive applied to all models as long as the cheapest is sub $45k. Hence the Kona Essential which is surely sold at a loss just so the higher trims qualify.

There is an upper cap - $55K for 6 seats or $60K for seven seats which then ONLY includes the M3:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/road/innovative-technologies/zero-emission-vehicles.html
SOL if you want a Y:
https://www.tesla.com/en_ca/modely/design#battery
It would be nice if this gets upgraded, but somehow I don't see it in the near future given the circumstances.

 

[apu]

Here in New England, Massachusetts specifically it's a bit different. This is the rundown:

Tesla Model AWD LR

$46990 - MSRP
+ 1200 - Destination/Doc
---------
$48,190 - sub-total
- 2500 - state rebate
---------
$45,690 - total (plus tax and registration)


Hyundai Kona Ultimate

$45470 - MSRP
+ 495 - accessories
+ 1140 - freight
---------
$47105 - sub-total
- 7500 - Federal tax credit
---------
$39605
- 2500 - state rebate
--------
$37,105 - total (plus tax and registration)

Difference $8,585

The Hyundai sales rep did say that he could essentially waive the accessories fee and maybe a touch more but I didn't include that in the breakdown because it's an unknown. However if he is good to his word that would make it a $9,000 difference.

The cars aren't really priced that far apart, if it weren't for the Federal tax credit on the Hyundai then they are only a few thousand apart. From an insurance standpoint there is hardly any difference. The Model 3 is $700/year and the Kona Electric is $681/year.

It would seem Hyundai is pricing the Kona cheaper in Canada but Tesla remains price equivalent. Here in Canada an Ultimate at current exchange rates is around $40,500 in US dollar before rebates, and taxes or around $33,000 US dollar equivalent after provincial/ federal incentives but before taxes.

 

[Clamps]

It would seem Hyundai is pricing the Kona cheaper in Canada but Tesla remains price equivalent. Here in Canada an Ultimate at current exchange rates is around $40,500 in US dollar before rebates, and taxes or around $33,000 US dollar equivalent after provincial/ federal incentives but before taxes.

The price I’m quoting is the Ultimate trim. The entry level is around $37k.

 

[wizziwig]

My main concern with getting an EV in general was the cost of an battery replacement if the battery goes bad. I drive 30K to 45k miles per year.. A Model 3 would be out of battery warranty in 3 to 4 years.
I have been several times on the Tesla website to order a Model 3 but when I found out about the US Lifetime Warranty for the battery on the Hyundai Kona Electric (for the original owner), I knew that this was the car for me. I'm approaching 31k miles after 1 year of ownership already (would have been 35k+ miles if it wasn't for COVID-19). I'm planning on keeping the car in the family and have no plans on ever selling it unless of course, something other than the battery breaks that is not worth fixing. The battery warranty gave me peace of mind. Imagine if I'd have a Model 3 SR+ and at 100100 miles, the battery goes bad.. I would be out of luck...

Given what we know about these cars (both Kona and eNiro), your concerns over battery warranty seem a bit misplaced. How many confirmed battery failures have you seen reported for these cars? Even if we consider the handful of fires as potential battery failures, those numbers pale in comparison to the number of proven drivetrain (motor and/or gearbox) failures reported here and other Kona/eNiro forums. The battery will most likely outlast the rest of the car and replacing the drivetrain will cost $10K+ after warranty expires.

 

[FloridaSun]

Given what we know about these cars (both Kona and eNiro), your concerns over battery warranty seem a bit misplaced. How many confirmed battery failures have you seen reported for these cars? Even if we consider the handful of fires as potential battery failures, those numbers pale in comparison to the number of proven drivetrain (motor and/or gearbox) failures reported here and other Kona/eNiro forums. The battery will most likely outlast the rest of the car and replacing the drivetrain will cost $10K+ after warranty expires.

Part of the battery warranty is degradation.. Battery failure is not likely but as Bjorn Nyland has determined, there is some noticeable degradation. He recorded 5% degradation in 60000 km/37500 miles. At that pace, he will be at 10% degradation at 75k miles, at 20% degradation at 150k miles and at 30% degradation at 225k miles.. At that point, Hyundai would give me a new battery but with the Tesla, I would be out of luck and have 30% less range.. That would be after about 6.5 years of ownership.

 

[marshall]

Part of the battery warranty is degradation.. Battery failure is not likely but as Bjorn Nyland has determined, there is some noticeable degradation. He recorded 5% degradation in 60000 km/37500 miles. At that pace, he will be at 10% degradation at 75k miles, at 20% degradation at 150k miles and at 30% degradation at 225k miles.. At that point, Hyundai would give me a new battery but with the Tesla, I would be out of luck and have 30% less range.. That would be after about 6.5 years of ownership.

Can you show us where in the Hyundai warranty that they warrant battery capacity? If there is no specific mention of battery capacity, are they just going to say it's normal wear and tear.

 

[apu]

The price I’m quoting is the Ultimate trim. The entry level is around $37k.

Yes, I was also comparing the the Canadian Ultimate trim as well. The Canadian Ultimate in theory has more standard content such as roof racks(not sure if all US models now have heat pump) yet is priced lower at the US dollar equivalent of $40,500(at current exchange) before any rebates or taxes vs the $46,500 on the Hyundai America site. Now the US market does enjoy better availability and free maintenance but still I think the American market is getting shafted by Hyundai.

 

[Clamps]

Yes, I was also comparing the the Canadian Ultimate trim as well. The Canadian Ultimate in theory has more standard content such as roof racks(not sure if all US models now have heat pump).

Got my currency conversion wires crossed when I read your first post. Yes, much better deal in Canada, especially with the roof rack and heat pump, both of which are missing in the US model.

 

[FloridaSun]

Can you show us where in the Hyundai warranty that they warrant battery capacity? If there is no specific mention of battery capacity, are they just going to say it's normal wear and tear.

It's not specifically stated but I called them before I bought the car and they confirmed that below 70% capacity, they would replace the battery.. The first person I spoke to didn't know and checked with his supervisor..

 

[ericy]

Part of the battery warranty is degradation.. Battery failure is not likely but as Bjorn Nyland has determined, there is some noticeable degradation. He recorded 5% degradation in 60000 km/37500 miles. At that pace, he will be at 10% degradation at 75k miles, at 20% degradation at 150k miles and at 30% degradation at 225k miles.. At that point, Hyundai would give me a new battery but with the Tesla, I would be out of luck and have 30% less range.. That would be after about 6.5 years of ownership.

Yeah, but. First of all Bjorn does a *LOT* of fast charging, and he hammers it a lot. Sometimes running down to 0, and sometimes charging to 100%.

Secondly, some of the curves I have seen suggest that the loss in capacity is greatest when the batteries are new. As the batteries get a little older, the subsequent drop in capacity becomes smaller. So I wouldn't assume that one can extrapolate what he has seen so far into the future.

 

[wizziwig]

It's not specifically stated but I called them before I bought the car and they confirmed that below 70% capacity, they would replace the battery.. The first person I spoke to didn't know and checked with his supervisor..

What someone tells you won't be worth anything if you ever need to make a claim. I would try and get that in writing. At least open a case/ticket on Hyundai's website and get an official response you can keep on record. Everything I've seen says it's only a lifetime total failure warranty. Since dealers are checking for failing batteries during the BMS update procedure, we should have some early stats on battery failure rates.

Yeah, but. First of all Bjorn does a *LOT* of fast charging, and he hammers it a lot. Sometimes running down to 0, and sometimes charging to 100%.

Secondly, some of the curves I have seen suggest that the loss in capacity is greatest when the batteries are new. As the batteries get a little older, the subsequent drop in capacity becomes smaller. So I wouldn't assume that one can extrapolate what he has seen so far into the future.

Comparing degradation between different manufacturers (Tesla and Hyundai/KIA in this case) is complicated due to differences in their BMS. Hyundai and others keep very large top buffers in reserve which hide early degradation. This means you won't see any change in usable capacity until this buffer becomes completely exhausted. At that point, you will probably see a capacity decline curve similar to what you see in Bjorn's Tesla videos.

 

[FloridaSun]

g degradation between different manufacturers (Tesla and Hyundai/KIA in this case) is complicated due to differences in their BMS. Hyundai and others keep very large top buffers in reserve which hide early degradation. This means you won't see any change in usable capacity until this buffer becomes completely exhausted. At that point, you will probably see a capacity decline curve similar to what you see in Bjorn's Te

At 20k miles, my SoC BMS was 95.5% when SoC Display was 100%. Now, at 30k miles, the SoC BMW is 96.5% when the SoC display is 100%..

 

[KiwiME]

You could get an alternative idea of what part of the battery capacity is being used from the cell voltage at 100% SoC displayed, figuring 4.20 V is normally 100% for Li-Po. It's a non-linear curve but I'd bet you're within 0.03 V. Soul EV Spy Lite has a convenient display of 98 voltages.

 

[Toolworker]

I live on a twisty road. The first EV I test drove when starting to shop last fall was the Tesla. The accelerator was fun - as it is on any EV - but the steering and handling - yawn. Turn the wheel and it goes there, but no road feel at all.

The Kona is fun to drive. Of the four EVs I tested, it was the only one that put a smile on my face.

 

[syntaxfx]

I live on a twisty road. The first EV I test drove when starting to shop last fall was the Tesla. The accelerator was fun - as it is on any EV - but the steering and handling - yawn. Turn the wheel and it goes there, but no road feel at all.

The Kona is fun to drive. Of the four EVs I tested, it was the only one that put a smile on my face.

Still got your license?