Hybrid vs electric

[bwilson4web]

Living in Huntsville AL, any car we own needs to reach doctors and airports in Nashville TN or Birmingham AL, 120 miles before refueling or charging. So we own:

• 2014 BMW i3-REx - 72 mi EV and 78 mi gas. Out of gas, it takes 5-10 minutes to refuel so we have already taken a 700 mile trip to Oklahoma over a long weekend. It is the car of choice around town if making 4-10 stops or nearby towns of Decatur, Athens, Fayetteville, or Scottsboro.
• 2017 Prius Prime - 25 mi EV and 615 mi gas. Living in Huntsville, our third tank went 2,100 miles before I filled up for an out of town trip, over 400 miles on a single tank. Around town, it is the car of choice for up to 3 stops because it is so efficient.

With two cars, one can be in the shop or down so we have the other instead of a crappy loaner or rental. We're always driving around town in cheap EV mode yet maintain highway speeds on cross country vacations.

There are other plug-in hybrids that include the Volt, Ford Energi, C-MAX, and Chrysler Pacifica. It is good to have choices to pick the car that matches your requirements.

Bob Wilson

 

[Feed The Trees]

Well the pro on the hybrid side is you can still run on gas. If you dont have any EV in site that suits your needs then it's close as you will get.

 

[bwilson4web]

It turns out CARB is making a multi-year study:
https://phev.ucdavis.edu/wp-content...vel-and-Charging-Behavior-Interim-Report-.pdf

An interesting read because it give metrics for miles per day versus different PHEVs. I am still digesting the data but as expected, some of the smaller range, BEVs, are not getting the same usage as the hybrid plug-ins. This matches my experience with one Leaf owner when I worked. In contrast, our plug-in hybrids have completely replaced our hybrids and BEVs have no allure. We use the longer range on demand with no routing limitations.

Bob Wilson

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

...as expected, some of the smaller range, BEVs, are not getting the same usage as the hybrid plug-ins.

Aha! I always suspected that the fact so many BEV drivers never use en-route charging (according to one survey, 55% have never used a public EV charger) probably meant that many or most of them also own a gasmobile (or PHEV) which they would choose to drive if the range was farther than the BEV could handle comfortably.

My guess is that the "hybrid garage" significantly skews the figures for the daily driving range for BEV owners.

 

[LAH]

The problem will the be the ROI to upgrading electrical power and installing enough fast charging infrastructure to support highway driving without having to wait in line for a charger. PHEVs with 50 miles of range have the benefit of mostly running on electric but for long range driving use gas. So for most driving electric power would be used and for highway power gas would be used.

The way I see it, there is already a fast fueling infrastructure in place for (PH)EV; Gas stations.

 

[LAH]

Electric advantages:
Charge at home (if you own a house and have the equipment)
Better acceleration
Fewer components (theoretically cheaper to maintain)
No gasoline used or exhaust produced

Plug-in Hybrid advantages:
Flexible fuel use
Longer range (than most pure electrics)

Hybrid advantages:
Less expensive to buy (now)
Faster fueling (than pure electrics)
Longer range (than most pure electrics)

Plug In EV require no fast charging infrastructure. A significant fast charging infrastructure will likely cost in the 3 digit billions. How will get funded?

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

A significant fast charging infrastructure will likely cost in the 3 digit billions. How will get funded?

The same way building gas stations got funded during the motorcar revolution. When there is sufficient demand for them, then commercial DCFC stations will appear to capitalize on the market. Until that happens, there certainly is a good argument to be made that PHEVs are better than BEVs for long-distance over the road travel.

I get a bit impatient with those who ask "How will this be funded?" Businessmen see a market that's not being supplied as an opportunity, not an expense!

 

[Counterpoint]

Plug In EV require no fast charging infrastructure. A significant fast charging infrastructure will likely cost in the 3 digit billions. How will get funded?

If you're saying plug-in hybrids require no fast-charging infrastructure, I agree that's a point in their favor.

In terms of cost, I think you're overestimating how expensive it is to set up a fast-charging station. Numbers I saw indicate it's doable for roughly $60,000. Even if there were a million of them in the US, that's still less than "3 digit billions," and I doubt there would need to be that many. In terms of who is going to pay for them, my guess would be car manufacturers like Tesla that want a competitive advantage, gas companies like Shell that want to diversify and avoid obsolescence, and energy companies that want to capitalize on the need.

 

[F U Bigoil]

In Southern California one of the primary advantages of driving a plug-in hybrid or pure electric car is being able to ride solo in the carpool lane. Once I tried it I'm never going back to driving a pure ICE car!

 

[Cypress]

That's what I am afraid of, traveling somewhere in the middle of the country and nowhere to charge.

Also, are there cars with solar charging so that you never need a "plug"?

If the power grid goes down, you can’t pump gas either. But, if you have a large enough EV battery, and the car supports vehicle to home, you could power your house during the outage.

 

[Cypress]

Plug In EV require no fast charging infrastructure. A significant fast charging infrastructure will likely cost in the 3 digit billions. How will get funded?

Well VW is putting billions in by court mandate. And other automakers are making large investments in networks like ChargePoint. And governments, like WA, OR, CA are working together on electric highway infrastructure. Destination chargers, like at hotels are being put in by hotel owners. Imagine how convenient not to have to search for a gas station, just drive to your hotel and plug in while you sleep.

 

[Kumar Plocher]

The Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3 are the first long-range BEVs that are affordable. Hopefully, there will be many more in different shapes and sizes so that eventually, no one wants or needs a hybrid.

 

[rosssr]

for anybody traveling farther than a normal daily commute, a pure ev is impractical as an only car.
the hybrid covers all the bases. a series hybrid even moreso.

those of you trying to avoid mogas at all costs are missing a lot of info and data.
if you are pushing for ev only, thinking that you will somehow stop the world from drilling for, processing , and using oil, you are greatly mistaken.

the goal should be to strive for the greatest efficiency for your situation.
if you only ever drive less than 50 miles per day, and never need to go farther than that, then get a pure ev and enjoy it.
if you sometimes need to drive farther than that, then get a hybrid.

fast charging at a rate to rival pumping gas does not yet exist, and nor does the infrastructure, and it wont for a long time.

and, btw, you all need to recognize that pure ev's are first world, oecd, city possible only. ev penetration of markets across latin america, africa, eurasia etc will be next to nil for decades.

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

ev penetration of markets across latin america, africa, eurasia etc will be next to nil for decades.

Wholesale replacement of gasmobiles with BEVs will start happening worldwide, starting as soon as falling battery prices make a BEV cheaper to buy than a comparable gasmobile, even with the cheapest gasmobiles. That certainly won't take many decades; it may well take less than one decade.

Gasmobiles will remain popular only in regions lacking a dependable, widespread electrical grid.

 

[rosssr]

your last line says it all......and why the penetration will be next to nil in non-oecd countries.

btw, battery prices arent going anywhere too fast since the elements to make them are not becoming cheaper - and the automation gains may get negated by rising costs of rare earths.

once again, all the predictions of 'wholesale replacement' are greatly exaggerated wishful thinking.

which is also part of what i was saying - hybrids WILL make greater inroads at a faster pace.

oh, and one other thing.....look what happens to EV sales once the government subsidy is removed....australia comes to mind.

 

[Feed The Trees]

the goal should be to strive for the greatest efficiency for your situation.
if you only ever drive less than 50 miles per day, and never need to go farther than that, then get a pure ev and enjoy it.
if you sometimes need to drive farther than that, then get a hybrid.

I am going to disagree that "the goal" should be to strive for the greatest efficiency. It is a nice goal, and it can be your goal, but it is not 'the goal'.

 

[Kumar Plocher]

for anybody traveling farther than a normal daily commute, a pure ev is impractical as an only car.

False. For half a decade now, the option to drive across great distances with a BEV has been there for wealthy people (Tesla). Now with the Chevy Bolt and Model 3, it is emerging for non-wealthy people.

if you are pushing for ev only, thinking that you will somehow stop the world from drilling for, processing , and using oil, you are greatly mistaken.

We are doing what we think is right, and if enough of us agree, it may produce something close to that effect. If not, the personal effect is an important one for each of us. What a weird, un-democratic statement to make, by the way. It is akin to "If by voting you think you can change anything, you are greatly mistaken."

the goal should be to strive for the greatest efficiency for your situation.
if you only ever drive less than 50 miles per day, and never need to go farther than that, then get a pure ev and enjoy it.
if you sometimes need to drive farther than that, then get a hybrid.

First, I have serious questions about your definition of efficiency. Consider that when a vehicle is hybrid, it suddenly relies on every single system of a gas car and electric car combined. Meanwhile, a pure BEV is simplicity materialized. And that's not even considering the energy production processes. A BEV allows you to drive on sunshine using the simplest "well-to-wheel" process imaginable, and something that anyone can reproduce at their own home in a completely decentralized manner.

Also, where does this "50 miles a day" limitation come from? Nearly every single BEV that exists can do greater than 75 miles a day. Most of the current production models are closer to 100, and quite a few are over 100 at this point, with a growing number well above 200. You do realize you are in an EV forum, surrounded by people who know what they are talking about, right?

fast charging at a rate to rival pumping gas does not yet exist, and nor does the infrastructure, and it wont for a long time.

Dude, I can charge at home while I sleep at an extremely low price of electricity. If you're going to put a value on quick refilling (which is coming along in EVs btw), then you also have to put a value on that.

and, btw, you all need to recognize that pure ev's are first world, oecd, city possible only. ev penetration of markets across latin america, africa, eurasia etc will be next to nil for decades.

Let's make a bet.

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

... battery prices arent going anywhere too fast since the elements to make them are not becoming cheaper - and the automation gains may get negated by rising costs of rare earths.

Li-ion battery prices have dropped astonishingly fast over the past couple of years. I think more than 30%, according to some analysts? The economy of scale is finally kicking in. The price of the elements is only a small fraction of the price, and so that's not very important. What is important is that processing costs are dropping rapidly, and that continually improving energy density means less of the elements are needed for the same capacity.

once again, all the predictions of 'wholesale replacement' are greatly exaggerated wishful thinking.

Certainly not. It's just that we're nearer the shallow beginning of the replacement "S-curve" than the much steeper middle. Once the exponential growth really begins to bite, nobody is going to be saying it's "exaggerated" or "wishful thinking"!

 

[101101]

No much of the above is way off. There is a German firm doing a cheap but very cool and upright version of a car solar covered car. And a Chinese company trying to cover cars that look a bit like dodge challengers with functional solar.

Sunswift below will hit something like 90mph seat with room for luggage and more than cover daily commute and if you leace in the sun all week will take you from LA to SF, looks sporty too. Also Toyota seems set to offer a solar roof on a PHEV that will do more aux

Any way sunswift violet:
http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2017/09/sunswift-violet-ready-to-compete-in.html?m=1

And lets not forget on solar abundance covering a tiny bit of Nevada with current solar cells and using some batteries and super conducting cable could replace the entire Earth's power and fuel load. 3 days of solar input equal to more of the Earths total petrol store.

But lets be clear a hybrid that isn't going to drive primarily on EV and get power from battery backed renewables is still not only redundant and much less reliable, it stupid for the same reasons same reasons hydrogen and natural gas are stupid. The point is not to leave petrol power in place the point is to cut its money, kill its political power and prosecute it all as fast as humanly possible to prevent its stupidity from killing us and prevent a recurrence. The shill front manufacturers think they can confuse the public, retain profit, foot drag and avoid prosecution. They can't. Their profit will be an aggravating factor.

 

[bwilson4web]

For half a decade now, the option to drive across great distances with a BEV has been there for wealthy people (Tesla). Now with the Chevy Bolt and Model 3, it is emerging for non-wealthy people.

For the Tesla products, yes, the SuperCharger network makes long distance possible. But the Chevy Bolt has no matching network as Chevy has no interest in establishing a 24x7, CCS network. It is maddening to see how the dealers lock-up their chargers, even the L2, after hours.

Bob Wilson