How to encourage the mass market into EV's

[Jgood]

There are always reasons why people will resist ANY change, but the most common obstacle to EV adoption is and will continue to be RANGE anxiety. Most people love the power, acceleration, quiet and reduced service requirements. It's the range issue that stops them. Until the day comes that EVSE's are as ubiquitous as gas stations people will obsess over this issue. Personally I'd give the "industry" one suggestion that would help many people over their fears. It's this:

Make the car figure out how to get people where they want to go.

Develop user-interface technology that simply asks me "where are you going" when I get in the car. Provide simple menu replies like "local trip", "commute to work" "long distance trip" so I can easily provide the trip computer with needed data. In the event of "long distance trip" being selected the computer would ask for a destination, then use SOC data, estimated mileage to the destination and ESVE stations en route to plot out a route and time of arrival including any charging stops.

Basically this would eliminate the need for the driver to pull up map Apps, figure out where the EVSE's are, which one's are likely to be operational and will work with my car, etc. The mass market will NOT go gently toward EV's until they're as easy to drive as current ICE cars. And NO ONE who drives an ICE car has to figure out where the gas stations are on their route to grandma's house. They're everywhere, so it's not an issue.

The technology exists to do all of this. If a human can do it...a processor can too, and probably a lot faster and with options displayed. Stop making people do all this silly computation. Let the computers do the heavy lifting. They're better at it than we are. And considering some of the tech that currently goes into EV's, this kind of feature would not be a high bar to overcome.

What are your suggestions to the industry? They obviously need our help!

 

[davidtm]

Agreed! I believe that the car industry has only just tiptoed around implementation of vehicle tech, particularly in terms of user interface. EVs provide the opportunity for a real sea change in this regard.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

 

[gonzogeezer]

Based on what I’ve read, sounds like Tesla does this already. My ID.4 doesn’t have a similar level of sophistication in its onboard navigation, so I use a program called A Better Route Planner to calculate my trips. It does take all my car ‘s capabilities and even traffic and weather conditions to plan out the trip.

For the overwhelming majority of people, the daily driving chores and commute to work will generally be accommodated by having some kind of home charging solution. Navigation software and route plans are not necessary.


For me it’s less a case of range anxiety than it is the lack of available chargers with enough power to make the charging stops shorter. We’ve all become quite used to a 10 minute fill up for ICE cars, but of course today we can’t necessarily do that with EVs. I can charge my VW in about 40 minutes with a high speed DCFC, and that makes a great bio break & coffee stop.

 

[Jgood]

Based on what I’ve read, sounds like Tesla does this already. My ID.4 doesn’t have a similar level of sophistication in its onboard navigation, so I use a program called A Better Route Planner to calculate my trips. It does take all my car ‘s capabilities and even traffic and weather conditions to plan out the trip.

Yup. I've got A Better Route Planner too. It still doesn't see the car side of the equation, like what's the current SOC, daytime or night, full load or empty, temps here as well as en route, elevation changes, traffic, ALL of it, and how far can the car go right now before needing to charge, and WHERE I should charge. I don't want a stand-alone App. I want it built into the car and I want it to take care of all that calculation for me (and I think others will also). I want to be able to say, "here's where I want to go—get me there as quickly as possible and DO NOT let me run out of power!" I'm really trying to see this from the average driver who doesn't want to be an EV enthusiast. They just want to go somewhere and not have to think about the "needs" of the vehicle. At present this is a big issue for a lot of people. They don't want to buy a car only to find out they have to THINK AND PLAN every trip before they start out on the road. And that IS pretty much the state of the industry now.

Tesla did think this through ahead of time. They are more advanced than anyone else currently, but I don't think their software is good enough yet either. It needs to make the entire experience easy, reliable and confidence inspiring.

 

[Clamps]

The software routing is nice and makes long trips hassle free but the vast majority of cars don’t have anything like this and people get around just fine.

What’s lacking is infrastructure and charge times.

I think in the interim Tesla’s system is the best, easiest way to travel in an electric car.

 

[Calliope]

I disagree, I think the the biggest blockage is many people's inability to charge at home, either because they're in multi-resident buildings or they're renting and can't have one installed. It's related to range anxiety, but is at a more fundamental level i.e. you'll have range anxiety if you can't plug your car in at home and wake up to a full battery. It's particularly true for city dwellers (more likely to live in those circumstances), although cities are where EVs shine, in my opinion.

 

[Jgood]

The software routing is nice and makes long trips hassle free but the vast majority of cars don’t have anything like this and people get around just fine.

It's not the majority...it's none of them. And every person that I talk to about my EV has the same reservations. None of them have any interest in using Apps to figure out how to get from A to B. Even my 28 year old daughter has zero interest in learning how to use an EV. They're not interested in having to adapt to a car's needs. I had a recent conversation with a person who said they loved the idea of getting an EV, and they couldn't wait until EV's could drive 400 to 500 miles without having the think about anything. I pointed out that EV's can drive 400-500 miles with one planned stop and they countered with...yeah, but I don't want to have to think about any of that.

The only people that are getting around just fine are people like you and me, because we're early adopters who enjoy this kind of stuff. I admit it. We are a decided minority! I'll bet that 9 out of 10 people won't even consider an EV until they don't have to change their ways at all.

 

[ENirogus]

First, stop with the app based business model for charging
Ridiculous, they are not selling you electricity, they are selling your information
Every charging station should take a credit card, period

Second, you know those little air pumps outside gas stations and convenience stores that charge you 50 cents to fill up your tires? They suck right? Until you actually need one. Why are there not mini emergency charging stations popping up? What would you pay for 10 miles of range if you totally screwed the pooch and got stuck out in podunk with 1 percent battery? OR if you are a city dweller and charge once a month and someone stole your extension cord
Third, I would gladly trade 2 seconds added to my 0-60 for whatever range the smaller motor and smaller controller etc etc would gain me. My Kia accelerates faster than many 25 year old sports cars, it isn't necessary.
Colin Chapman of Lotus Cars had a concept called 'simplify and add lightness' The basics are if you start with an engine that weighs half of what your competition is using, then you need less structure to hold it up. Then you need less suspension to hold that up. Then you need smaller tires to run it on, and smaller brakes to stop it.

IMHO EV makers need to think this way. Tesla started it all by making silly fast cars, but most people, and especially those who prefer an EV, could easily live with an 8+ second 0-60. Like a 10 year old camry or accord. Hell my 1984 Accord took nearly 12 seconds by the numbers and it never felt slow[and I have owned slooow and fast cars]
I think if you used a phone app to track your cars performance you would be surprised at how rarely you used its potential. Yet you haul that gear around every day.

 

[Jgood]

I disagree, I think the the biggest blockage is many people's inability to charge at home, either because they're in multi-resident buildings or they're renting and can't have one installed. It's related to range anxiety, but is at a more fundamental level i.e. you'll have range anxiety if you can't plug your car in at home and wake up to a full battery. It's particularly true for city dwellers (more likely to live in those circumstances), although cities are where EVs shine, in my opinion.

I don't disagree about the problems for people living in apartments and condo's etc. But it seems to me that many city dwellers frequently have options. They have the most DC fast chargers near them. Their commutes are the shortest and frequently in traffic where their range will be the greatest. They can "fill the tank" with a 20-30 minute stop at a DC fast which are often located near other services like coffee shops or malls. But they have the same problems when it comes to making a trip beyond their normal travel radius. How far can I go? Where do I charge? Will the charger be working? How will the weather affect my trip?

I actually live in a small city and have a home charger. But I only use it about once per week. I don't need to charge overnight every night. If I had a DC fast charger within 5 miles I'd use that instead. It certainly would have been cheaper than having the level 2 installed in my house.

I don't give my EV a second thought when traveling around my local area. I know where the chargers are and I know how far it is to the places I frequent. I have zero range anxiety on a day-to-day basis. But, if I have to go somewhere 150 miles away and round trip back my entire attitude changes. I have to plan ahead suddenly. I think most people would respond very positively if the car could take care of all that for them.

 

[Puppethead]

Basically this would eliminate the need for the driver to pull up map Apps, figure out where the EVSE's are, which one's are likely to be operational and will work with my car, etc.

The MINI Cooper SE navigation tells you if you can't reach your destination and suggests nearby EVSEs on your route, letting you easily add an intermediate destination. It's not perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.

What would you pay for 10 miles of range if you totally screwed the pooch and got stuck out in podunk with 1 percent battery?

Can't that be accomplished by finding a 120 V outlet somewhere? Almost every building has working electricity with a standard outlet. While high availability of Level 2 would be much preferred, the electrical infrastructure is already there for emergency charging. I carry my Level 1 EVSE with me for just that reason. Sure the charge rate is slow, but is it any worse than an ICE driver having to hike a mile or two to get a canister of fuel, or wait for AAA to show up?

 

[gonzogeezer]

Yup. I've got A Better Route Planner too. It still doesn't see the car side of the equation, like what's the current SOC, daytime or night, full load or empty, temps here as well as en route, elevation changes, traffic, ALL of it, and how far can the car go right now before needing to charge, and WHERE I should charge. I don't want a stand-alone App. I want it built into the car and I want it to take care of all that calculation for me (and I think others will also). I want to be able to say, "here's where I want to go—get me there as quickly as possible and DO NOT let me run out of power!" I'm really trying to see this from the average driver who doesn't want to be an EV enthusiast. They just want to go somewhere and not have to think about the "needs" of the vehicle. At present this is a big issue for a lot of people. They don't want to buy a car only to find out they have to THINK AND PLAN every trip before they start out on the road. And that IS pretty much the state of the industry now.

Tesla did think this through ahead of time. They are more advanced than anyone else currently, but I don't think their software is good enough yet either. It needs to make the entire experience easy, reliable and confidence inspiring.

No routing software that I’ve seen can tell in real-time how many miles are left before requiring a fill up or a recharge. You want what doesn’t even exist for ICE cars today. If you want total autonomous operation, take a bus.

And if you subscribe, ABRP does track traffic and elevation changes and weather and integrates with car play to display it on the infotainment system.


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[Clamps]

I disagree, I think the the biggest blockage is many people's inability to charge at home, either because they're in multi-resident buildings or they're renting and can't have one installed. It's related to range anxiety, but is at a more fundamental level i.e. you'll have range anxiety if you can't plug your car in at home and wake up to a full battery. It's particularly true for city dwellers (more likely to live in those circumstances), although cities are where EVs shine, in my opinion.

That’s kinda my point. Much more infrastructure and faster charge times. ICE drivers don’t worry because they can go to a local station and fill up quickly. If tech and infrastructure catch up then it becomes a non-issue.

It's not the majority...it's none of them. And every person that I talk to about my EV has the same reservations. None of them have any interest in using Apps to figure out how to get from A to B. Even my 28 year old daughter has zero interest in learning how to use an EV. They're not interested in having to adapt to a car's needs. I had a recent conversation with a person who said they loved the idea of getting an EV, and they couldn't wait until EV's could drive 400 to 500 miles without having the think about anything. I pointed out that EV's can drive 400-500 miles with one planned stop and they countered with...yeah, but I don't want to have to think about any of that.

The only people that are getting around just fine are people like you and me, because we're early adopters who enjoy this kind of stuff. I admit it. We are a decided minority! I'll bet that 9 out of 10 people won't even consider an EV until they don't have to change their ways at all.

I’m not sure I was clear. What I’m trying to say the software becomes unnecessary if infrastructure and charge times come close to what is available for combustion vehicles.

Otherwise Tesla is the only one who’s got the software.

 

[Esprit1st]

No routing software that I’ve seen can tell in real-time how many miles are left before requiring a fill up or a recharge. You want what doesn’t even exist for ICE cars today. If you want total autonomous operation, take a bus.

And if you subscribe, ABRP does track traffic and elevation changes and weather and integrates with car play to display it on the infotainment system.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're incorrect, ABRP does exactly that in real time. A Tesla can be hooked up directly to ABRP, and every other ev can be with an obd2 dongle and an app on your phone. Is it easy to set up? No, but it is available.

However I totally agree that this should be standard in EVERY EV.

 

[ENirogus]

Can't that be accomplished by finding a 120 V outlet somewhere? Almost every building has working electricity with a standard outlet. While high availability of Level 2 would be much preferred, the electrical infrastructure is already there for emergency charging. I carry my Level 1 EVSE with me for just that reason. Sure the charge rate is slow, but is it any worse than an ICE driver having to hike a mile or two to get a canister of fuel, or wait for AAA to show up?

Many people have no interest in having to go begging for fuel. THis is part of range anxiety, what hoops am I going to have to jump through, what embarrassment to I have to endure to fuel my vehicle? How about none thank you very much? I already made a mistake by being in this situation, do not compound it by making me knock on a door, or ask a smirking convenience store clerk if I can use there plug. This is exactly what range anxiety is. We live in a wealthy society with cell phones, it is rare that you will actually be stranded.

 

[Esprit1st]

You're correct. This is a business opportunity and the exact reason why 7-eleven is investing a lot of money into installing DC quick chargers at some (unfortunately only in a few states I understand) locations.

As a matter of fact when we owned our business 4 years ago I was about to install a L2 charger to "lure" in customers. I don't understand why not more businesses do that.

 

[bpschroder]

The MINI Cooper SE navigation tells you if you can't reach your destination and suggests nearby EVSEs on your route, letting you easily add an intermediate destination. It's not perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.



Can't that be accomplished by finding a 120 V outlet somewhere? Almost every building has working electricity with a standard outlet. While high availability of Level 2 would be much preferred, the electrical infrastructure is already there for emergency charging. I carry my Level 1 EVSE with me for just that reason. Sure the charge rate is slow, but is it any worse than an ICE driver having to hike a mile or two to get a canister of fuel, or wait for AAA to show up?

I agree with what Puppethead is saying here. Even though gas stations are plentiful. Electric distribution infrastructure is far more robust and running over our heads or below are feet. In an emergency situation it shouldn't be too difficult to find a 110 15amp outlet somewhere. It will be great to have more Level 2 and Level 3 options available, but Level 1 charging, albeit slow, is available almost everywhere.

 

[miatadan]

I feel it is the lack of variety of models, no coupe, no convertibles, van's just suvs/crossovers, trucks in the future as well as prices $10,000 plus more than the ICE versions.

Unless you are type to do road trips, do not understand the range anxiety issues and why people obsess about only being able to charge to 80% instead of 90/100%

Dan

 

[mikeg0305]

Third, I would gladly trade 2 seconds added to my 0-60 for whatever range the smaller motor and smaller controller etc etc would gain me. My Kia accelerates faster than many 25 year old sports cars, it isn't necessary.
Colin Chapman of Lotus Cars had a concept called 'simplify and add lightness' The basics are if you start with an engine that weighs half of what your competition is using, then you need less structure to hold it up. Then you need less suspension to hold that up. Then you need smaller tires to run it on, and smaller brakes to stop it.

IMHO EV makers need to think this way. Tesla started it all by making silly fast cars, but most people, and especially those who prefer an EV, could easily live with an 8+ second 0-60.

I understand your point but for our current situation of having 2 ICE vehicles in the family already what was so appealing about our 2022 Mini Cooper SE was having our cake and eating it to. We get a fun, quick and just a blast to drive car and get to save money on gas AND save the environment. For us the 125 miles of range does not matter being an extra car. Trust me I understand I’m lucky to have this luxury. But I’m also a car guy and I love driving a fun car. I would not trade any amount of fun or acceleration for an extra 50 miles. If that was important I would’ve bought a different EV.

Just my humble opinion.



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[miatadan]

I understand your point but for our current situation of having 2 ICE vehicles in the family already what was so appealing about our 2022 Mini Cooper SE was having our cake and eating it to. We get a fun, quick and just a blast to drive car and get to save money on gas AND save the environment. For us the 125 miles of range does not matter being an extra car. Trust me I understand I’m lucky to have this luxury. But I’m also a car guy and I love driving a fun car. I would not trade any amount of fun or acceleration for an extra 50 miles. If that was important I would’ve bought a different EV.

Just my humble opinion.



Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs

You said it best "
But I’m also a car guy and I love driving a fun car. I would not trade any amount of fun or acceleration for an extra 50 miles. "

For some ENirous said "
could easily live with an 8+ second 0-60. Like a 10 year old camry or accord. Hell my 1984 Accord took nearly 12 seconds by the numbers " , this be unacceptable.

So far the only interesting EV's so far is the Mini Cooper SE, Tesla Model 3, Mazda MX30 as this seem more for those who enjoy driving instead of getting A to B with boring Suvs/Crossovers type EV's.

Dan

 

[ENirogus]

See what you guys are doing?

Interesting EV

The whole point here is practical not interesting
IT is not what 'you' want but what the mass consumer wants

Mass consumers do not buy Miatas, they buy Camrys.
Now sports cars may help sell regular cars, the 'halo effect' but the majority of cars sold are not performance models.

EVs have some historical stereotypes to overcome. Tesla knew that. It is not a bad thing ot have high performance EVs, but mass adoption relies on the vehicle do the things a consumer demands, and 'worry' fails that basic test.

It is easy to say a huge mileage range is required, but that plays into the hands of EV opponents, who will continue to move the goalposts.

Well, sure it can go 600 miles on a charge and recharge in 5 minutes, but still..............