How to encourage the mass market into EV's

[Clamps]

Going back to the original title of this thread, my approach based upon reactions:

• How long does it take to charge? - A1. Typically an hour after I get home or 3-4 hours if planning a long trip in the morning.
• A2. It costs $2.75 to drive 100 miles around not counting the free charges at Whole Foods and other mini-malls.
• A3. There is no transmission nor oil changes nor air filter changes.

When you inform them how cheap it is to run an EV, insight is gained.

Bob Wilson

While I agree with you about the low operational cost of an EV it is the anxiety of finding chargers and range that seem to bother most ICE owners. Imagine if there were at least one 150kWh CCS/Chademo station at 50% of the gas stations. To me and in order these are the biggest barriers:

Infrastructure (charging stations)
Charging speed
Range

I'm only basing this on the countless questions I got while charging my car on my big road trip.

 

[Esprit1st]

While I agree with you about the low operational cost of an EV it is the anxiety of finding chargers and range that seem to bother most ICE owners. Imagine if there were at least one 150kWh CCS/Chademo station at 50% of the gas stations. To me and in order these are the biggest barriers:

Infrastructure (charging stations)
Charging speed
Range

I'm only basing this on the countless questions I got while charging my car on my big road trip.

You are correct with that being the concerns of non-EV drivers. The only real concern is the infrastructure. With current EVs charging speed and range is not a factor any more.

Once I talk with people s little bit they start to understand that it's really not an issue to "wait" (we all know what it really is: potty & coffee break) 20-30 minutes after a 2-hour drive.

 

[bwilson4web]

We emphasize what we value. Low operational cost is my motivation. At close to 1/3d the cost per mile, it softens the sticker shock. But I also mention driving automation.

The standard Autopilot and future FSD are powerful safety features. I use the early release of summon to show what is happening.

As for charging away from the house, I rattle off the free chargers around town and Superchargers to the North, East, South, and West. Also, PlugShare maps are useful. As for CCS-1, we also have a BMW i3 REx, 50 kW max, and gas is cheaper, 1/4th, and faster, 2 gallons, for cross country.

The CCS-1 network is less bad but still looks to have integration and operational challenges. I remember the latest InsideEV weekly video a discussion of how easy Superchargers are versus CCS-1. But that is just a snapshot of today’s fast DC charging.

Bob Wilson

 

[miatadan]

Going back to the original title of this thread, my approach based upon reactions:

• How long does it take to charge? - A1. Typically an hour after I get home or 3-4 hours if planning a long trip in the morning.
• A2. It costs $2.75 to drive 100 miles around not counting the free charges at Whole Foods and other mini-malls.
• A3. There is no transmission nor oil changes nor air filter changes.

When you inform them how cheap it is to run an EV, insight is gained.

Bob Wilson

Given similar answers when asked why I decided I wanted an EV

Dan


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs

 

[LegoZ]

You're incorrect, ABRP does exactly that in real time. A Tesla can be hooked up directly to ABRP, and every other ev can be with an obd2 dongle and an app on your phone. Is it easy to set up? No, but it is available.

However I totally agree that this should be standard in EVERY EV.

I use ABRP with an obd2 to dongle in my 2016 Kia Soul EV. Wow they have the concept down it needs so much work still to function well as a navigation product. If the can get a good polish on it it would be amazing. Right now the problem for me is it takes multiple products daisy chained together to make it work. (OBD2 dongle, android phone, torque pro, and then my iPhone with ABRP connected to my car with CarPlay) and still ends up with a subpar real-time navigation experience. And trust me this is one of those times that I am rooting for a product to succeed and realize their vision because the potential here is nearly limitless.

 

[GringoViejo]

The average vehicle price as of January is over 40k. The Niro does 240 miles for 41, the Kona, 260. It is not really about money, per se.

Yes battery prices are coming down, I think100kW batteries, with small incremental improvements in efficiency will get range to high enough levels to that it will shut up all but the irrational.

For real mass adoption, I'd like to see

The average vehicle price as of January is over 40k. The Niro does 240 miles for 41, the Kona, 260. It is not really about money, per se.

Yes battery prices are coming down, I think100kW batteries, with small incremental improvements in efficiency will get range to high enough levels to that it will shut up all but the irrational.

When a Kona (or equivalent) costs ~$25K, all objections will melt away. If it costs as much or more than a Model 3, it will appeal to a much narrower segment of the population.

I test drove every low-end EV available in 2019 and liked the Tesla best, regardless of price. YMMV on this, but when the price -- if not always the net net cost -- at that time turned out to be lower than Niro, Kona, Leaf, i3, I just asked my wife to pick the color.

BTW, here's a screen shot of the Tesla web site as of today (June 9, 2021) -- still barely under $40K US:

 

[Jgood]

When the day comes that I can get into my car with a 40% SOC and tell it to get me to a destination 250 miles away as fast as possible, I won't have any more range anxiety. That's something I can do today in an ICE car...only because I know there are gas stations everywhere. I do not for a moment believe that an L3 or even L2 charging network will ever look like the gasoline network in the US in my lifetime. How long did it take for gasoline stations to become ubiquitous? 50 years or more? The mass market is pretty used to having gas stations on every corner. And they are NOT used to having to plan their routes anymore. That's what we're talking about trying to overcome for EV adoption.

Keep in mind those of us having this discussion mostly own EV's. We're extremely atypical. We fully accepted all the limitations and annoyances. We are NOT the mass market. When you can think like a Camry driver who wants to hop in their car and drive to mountains this weekend you'll begin to approximate the threshold of range anxiety most people have. The more intelligent the car is in terms of figuring out how to plan their route, get them there comfortably and safely, and not strand them with a dead battery, the more accepting of EV's the drivers will be.

 

[Texas22Step]

For real mass adoption, I'd like to see

When a Kona (or equivalent) costs ~$25K, all objections will melt away. If it costs as much or more than a Model 3, it will appeal to a much narrower segment of the population.

I test drove every low-end EV available in 2019 and liked the Tesla best, regardless of price. YMMV on this, but when the price -- if not always the net net cost -- at that time turned out to be lower than Niro, Kona, Leaf, i3, I just asked my wife to pick the color.

BTW, here's a screen shot of the Tesla web site as of today (June 9, 2021) -- still barely under $40K US:

You are spot on. While range, EVSE availability and the other multitude of factors mentioned in the poses all bear on mass market EV acceptance, IMHO the single greatest factor is the high price of the vast majority of EVs on the market today in the USA. Luxury car makers such as Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, BMW and the like are rushing into the market with EV prices above $50K, these are simply not affordable for most folks, even with low interest rate and long-term auto loans. Once EV makers focus on the average Joe in EV affordability terms instead of wonderful displays, huge (long-range) battery packs, self-driving (or nearly) cars with sensors everywhere, etc. etc. etc., the EV market will take off for the masses.

 

[SSpiffy]

That's the exact reason why I bought a PHEV. I do almost all my driving on electrons; when I got the call that Mom was in the hospital, probably terminal (it was), 2100 miles away, I just got in the car and went.

When the day comes that I can get into my car with a 40% SOC and tell it to get me to a destination 250 miles away as fast as possible, I won't have any more range anxiety. That's something I can do today in an ICE car...only because I know there are gas stations everywhere. I do not for a moment believe that an L3 or even L2 charging network will ever look like the gasoline network in the US in my lifetime. How long did it take for gasoline stations to become ubiquitous? 50 years or more? The mass market is pretty used to having gas stations on every corner. And they are NOT used to having to plan their routes anymore. That's what we're talking about trying to overcome for EV adoption.

Keep in mind those of us having this discussion mostly own EV's. We're extremely atypical. We fully accepted all the limitations and annoyances. We are NOT the mass market. When you can think like a Camry driver who wants to hop in their car and drive to mountains this weekend you'll begin to approximate the threshold of range anxiety most people have. The more intelligent the car is in terms of figuring out how to plan their route, get them there comfortably and safely, and not strand them with a dead battery, the more accepting of EV's the drivers will be.

Gene 2020 Honda Clarity
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Inside EVs mobile app

 

[miatadan]

As Texas22Step said " the single greatest factor is the high price of the vast majority of EVs on the market today in the USA. Luxury car makers such as Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, BMW and the like are rushing into the market with EV prices above $50K, these are simply not affordable for most folks, even with low interest rate and long-term auto loans. "

Most people I know personally own cars that sold for $30,000 to $40.000 Canadian not the $50K plus models.

Also the EV market ignores those like me who have purchased lower priced sport cars such as the Mazda Miata, Ford Mustang , Dodge Challenger who desires this in EV. One of the exceptions to this is the 2022 Mini Cooper SE.

Dan

 

[ENirogus]

You are spot on. While range, EVSE availability and the other multitude of factors mentioned in the poses all bear on mass market EV acceptance, IMHO the single greatest factor is the high price of the vast majority of EVs on the market today in the USA. Luxury car makers such as Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, BMW and the like are rushing into the market with EV prices above $50K, these are simply not affordable for most folks, even with low interest rate and long-term auto loans. Once EV makers focus on the average Joe in EV affordability terms instead of wonderful displays, huge (long-range) battery packs, self-driving (or nearly) cars with sensors everywhere, etc. etc. etc., the EV market will take off for the masses.

The average Joe is buying an average 40k car.

So while price is a thing, demanding the impossible[20k cars with huge range] you are doing EVs a disservice

 

[Bruce M.]

When the day comes that I can get into my car with a 40% SOC and tell it to get me to a destination 250 miles away as fast as possible, I won't have any more range anxiety. That's something I can do today in an ICE car...only because I know there are gas stations everywhere. I do not for a moment believe that an L3 or even L2 charging network will ever look like the gasoline network in the US in my lifetime. How long did it take for gasoline stations to become ubiquitous? 50 years or more? The mass market is pretty used to having gas stations on every corner. And they are NOT used to having to plan their routes anymore. That's what we're talking about trying to overcome for EV adoption.

Keep in mind those of us having this discussion mostly own EV's. We're extremely atypical. We fully accepted all the limitations and annoyances. We are NOT the mass market. When you can think like a Camry driver who wants to hop in their car and drive to mountains this weekend you'll begin to approximate the threshold of range anxiety most people have. The more intelligent the car is in terms of figuring out how to plan their route, get them there comfortably and safely, and not strand them with a dead battery, the more accepting of EV's the drivers will be.

The difference between EV charging and the spread of gas stations in the early 20th century is that there weren't government agencies and utility companies subsidizing their large-scale deployment. That's already happening in many places -- thousands here or on the way in California alone -- and it will grow. Range anxiety will be gone in California within 3-4 years and soon thereafter in much of the rest of the country.

 

[Texas22Step]

The average Joe is buying an average 40k car.

So while price is a thing, demanding the impossible[20k cars with huge range] you are doing EVs a disservice

Actually, I said
[QUOTE="ENirogus, post: 135437, member: 29699"
So while price is a thing, demanding the impossible[20k cars with huge range] you are doing EVs a disservice[/QUOTE]

I may be missing something, but I really don’t think anyone posting in this thread “demanded” $20K EV’s “with huge range.” The question at hand was supposed to be how to trigger mass market demand for EV’s, and some of us think an affordable price to be very (or even the most) important, without regard to very long range or other whiz-bang features or attributes.

 

[Clamps]

The difference between EV charging and the spread of gas stations in the early 20th century is that there weren't government agencies and utility companies subsidizing their large-scale deployment. That's already happening in many places -- thousands here or on the way in California alone -- and it will grow. Range anxiety will be gone in California within 3-4 years and soon thereafter in much of the rest of the country.

While I agree with your premise that charging stations will be built faster than gas stations of the past I don’t think every state will advance as fast as California. There are way too many dead zones where driving an EV simply is an alternative.

 

[Bruce M.]

Absolutely California is ahead of the curve, but it seems like some other states are doing okay. The rest will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century soon enough.

As for price, I agree that affordability matters. Yes, the average price of a new car is $40K, but that means roughly half of buyers are paying less. There will eventually have to be EVs priced competitively with ICE Konas, Corollas, etc.

 

[Puppethead]

While I agree with your premise that charging stations will be built faster than gas stations of the past I don’t think every state will advance as fast as California. There are way too many dead zones where driving an EV simply is an alternative.

When I drove through Colorado from New Mexico to Nebraska two years ago I was surprised at how many Teslas I saw on the roads, and Colorado isn't a densely-populated state. And charging has built up a lot since then. New Mexico, on the other hand, has some areas so remote I felt uncomfortable in an ICE vehicle.

 

[Clamps]

When I drove through Colorado from New Mexico to Nebraska two years ago I was surprised at how many Teslas I saw on the roads, and Colorado isn't a densely-populated state. And charging has built up a lot since then. New Mexico, on the other hand, has some areas so remote I felt uncomfortable in an ICE vehicle.

I hear you, I just drove from Boston to Milwaukee and back over the last week. The trip out was okay, enough high speed chargers to get there on two different routes as long as you stay on the interstate. It's when I got to Wisconsin that I ran into issues. Reliable high speed chargers only in Milwaukee and Madison the rest of the state nothing. Had to rent a gasoline car for a trip to Door County, just past Green Bay.

 

[flynnguy]

As someone who's wanted to been interested in EVs for some time but only recently pulled the trigger on a Mini SE I recently ordered, I can talk to what my hurdles were/are to adopting an EV.

1. Cost. Sure, you can say that the average cost of a car is $40k, that's still a lot of money that a lot of people aren't willing to spend. I've never spent that much on a car. When Tesla's first came out, I specked out a number of them and they were all just too expensive. The cheapest tesla you can get is what, about $38k? Add in a few options and you are looking well into $40k. I ended up getting a mini, pretty well outfitted for about $35k. Factor in the tax credit and I'm looking at about $27,500.

2. Range. I'll make about a 400 mile drive about 6-7 times a year. The mini I'm getting just won't work for this. If I could get something over 200 miles, that would mean one stop which I think would be fine. So for now, the Mini is my 2nd car to do most of my daily driving. Sure, I could rent a car for those few times I need to make that drive but that's a hassle. I get that batteries are expensive and heavy but realistically an affordable car that does over 200 miles is a bit of a blocker for me going all electric.

I'm hoping once I pay off the mini I'll have more options and can maybe replace my ICE car with another EV.

 

[Clamps]

I get that batteries are expensive and heavy but realistically an affordable car that does over 200 miles is a bit of a blocker for me going all electric.

I don't know what you consider affordable but the Bolt goes well over 200 miles and can be had for under $30k. Even the Kona isn't that pricey if you get Fed and State credits.

 

[flynnguy]

I don't know what you consider affordable but the Bolt goes well over 200 miles and can be had for under $30k. Even the Kona isn't that pricey if you get Fed and State credits.

Well my last car was a hyundai and I wasn't a fan of the car or the dealership... also apparently "Currently, 2021 KONA Electric is only sold in CA, CO, CT, ME, MA, MD, NJ, NY, OR, RI, VT, & WA." so I can't even buy one but it starts at ~$37k.

The bolt looks like it has the range but says it starts at $31,995. Also for those longer trips, something with a little more cargo space would be nice. My current ICE car is a VW Golf Sportwagen and I can't remember exactly what I paid but it was low $20k. Unfortunately it doesn't look like VW is importing the new golf wagons into the US anymore so I can't do a current price comparison but the bolt is a smaller car for ~$10k more?

I would compare the bolt to the Honda Civic which starts at $21,250... so you are talking more than $10k more. If mass adoption happens there will most likely no longer be a tax credit but even still, for a lot of people where price is a factor, they may not be able to take full advantage of the tax credit. So while I think the tax credit helps adoption, I don't think it's something that will get to you "mass adoption."

Show me a car that comfortably seats 2 adults, 2 kids and their luggage, preferably room for a dog as well that goes over 200 miles (even taking into account winter degradation) that starts in the $20k-$23k price range and I'd bet it would be the most popular selling car in the US if they can keep up with the demand.