High cost of electricity slows EV sales in Northeast

T

Texas22Step

Well-Known Member
Here is an interesting article that discusses the very high electricity rates in the Northeastern states and its impact on sales there of all types of EV's.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1123926_affordable-electricity-electric-cars-northeast

From peoples' previous posts to this forum on many subjects, I have noted a wide scale of the cost of both electricity and gasoline in various parts of the country, both of which would naturally affect which fuel one picks to power a PHEV. But, I really had no idea that the average electricity rates in these NE states can be more than double the national average.

"In Connecticut, residential electricity costs 23.35 cents on average. In Massachusetts, it's 22.61 cents. In Rhode Island it's 22.37 cents. And on populous Long Island, where many commuters can reach Manhattan by car, standard rates for electricity can reach 47.86 cents per kilowatt-hour. That's nearly the equivalent of $5-per-gallon gasoline for electric-car drivers."
​
Since the Clarity PHEV allows its owners to essentially dynamically select the fuel type used for propulsion of the vehicle, one would think that PHEV's would be more attractive in these (and other) states. Moreover, these sort of numbers should inform state lawmakers as they make decisions about proposed surcharges to register EV's in their states to make up for "lost revenue" from gasoline taxes.
 
I live in NJ. Electric cost are high and gasoline costs are low. The price savings of using a Clarity PHEV could be better. In order to really save you need free charging from solar or somewhere else. Both of those turned out to not be practical in my case. The justification is a hard one to make on savings alone. And lets face it, the Clarity is not in the currently popular SUV format. For me that the choice would have been an easier one if it was in the format that works best for me. I still love the car.
 
Here in Redding CA our electricity rate is $0.15/KWh, not too bad. Current cheapest gas prices are about $3.50/gallon.
However we have solar so our costs are less than buying from the city.

Yes the Clarity PHEV gives us the choice of Gas or Electric power. In our case gas would have to fall below $2/gal for it to be cheaper than grid cost.

While I like having an efficient car that isn't the reason I bought it; but that is a bonus. I simply wanted to make a move toward the future. We had two Prius cars but they were still petrol burners that got good mileage with an electric assist. I don't plan to ever go back to a hybrid. A pure EV wouldn't work for us because of long charge times on long trips which we take often enough to be a concern. We can drive full electric for weeks at a time, until we take an out of town trip. I consider the Clarity an EV most of the time. Too bad it has to have a gas engine but for me BEVs aren't a good fit for our family. One day when charge times are under 15 minutes we will consider the jump to full EV.
 
jdonalds said:
Here in Redding CA our electricity rate is $0.15/KWh, not too bad. Current cheapest gas prices are about $3.50/gallon.
However we have solar so our costs are less than buying from the city.

Yes the Clarity PHEV gives us the choice of Gas or Electric power. In our case gas would have to fall below $2/gal for it to be cheaper than grid cost.

While I like having an efficient car that isn't the reason I bought it; but that is a bonus. I simply wanted to make a move toward the future. We had two Prius cars but they were still petrol burners that got good mileage with an electric assist. I don't plan to ever go back to a hybrid. A pure EV wouldn't work for us because of long charge times on long trips which we take often enough to be a concern. We can drive full electric for weeks at a time, until we take an out of town trip. I consider the Clarity an EV most of the time. Too bad it has to have a gas engine but for me BEVs aren't a good fit for our family. One day when charge times are under 15 minutes we will consider the jump to full EV.
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What he said. On. Everything.

I’ll add, if I could get the equivalent of a Rivian truck with the 180 kW battery for the same price as I got my Clarity (or even close) and could have gotten it a year and a half ago, only then would I have not bought my Clarity. Or if a year and half ago, I could have gotten a Tesla the same way AND the charging infrastructure was robust enough to let me travel across all the USA easily and without waiting...
But since all that is not happening any time soon, the Clarity was my only choice. If it dies before I do, its replacement will be a BEV.
 
I live in Boston and the break even happens when gas is around $2.75 per gallon vs electricity at $0.23 per kWh. This is comparing the Clarity to my old accord for a basic commute or mixed city/ highway use on the weekends. When I charge at home I tend to use HV for any highway driving.

If I had to buy electricity from public charging stations gas becomes way cheaper at the high rates charged by public charging stations. However, because charging is included in my office parking fee and there are a number of parking lots around town that do so as well the Clarity becomes a MUCH better value.

When I’m on the highway the Clarity gets about 13 more mpg then the accord, so long trips are 30% cheaper when using gas in the Clarity. That’s why I like a PHEV. I can balance out EV vs HV. Can’t do that in a BEV, nor could I easily do a long trip.
 
As much as I wanted to own the Tesla, the anticipation of an increase in demand driving up the cost of electricity(for those of us dependent on the grid) was what caused me to gravitate towards the Clarity over a P3D.
However, the sudden drop in sales are likely more due to the evaporation of subsidies/tax breaks on the popular models.

PS: I find it mildly entertaining that while demand in fuel has increased, the cost of gas has trended down. It's almost as if OPEC is purposely overproducing, so the layman could justify spending on that new status Truck/SUV their peers have always told them they wanted.
I sense a trap..
 
If we had to charge at our highest rate ($0.54/kWh) of the day (4PM-9PM) we would stick to gasoline. From 12AM to 6AM, however, it's 0.24/kWh in the summer (about a penny less in the winter). However, before we went TOU with solar and a battery (to cover the 4-9 hours) we were regularly bumping up past the tiered rate max. Once a consumer reaches a predetermined amount ALL of the rest of their electric use for that month gets dinged at the 54¢/kWh rate, and last summer it really was a "gotcha" for many people. So in any region with few options except high rates for high usage, for sure it'll dampen demand for EVs since they use so much more energy than a PHEV.

My long term fear is that even on a TOU, PoCos will eventually slap a "high usage fee" onto those bills as well since they are phasing out the tiered rate schedules as fast as they can. Solar + battery should keep that fear at bay - at least for a few more years.
 
Cheap electricity alone will not drive BEV sales. Our electric rates are cheap in Okla... $0.11/kWh... but gas is dirt cheap too... $2.19/gal. People here buying jacked up 4x4 pickups and diesels that struggle to get 15mpg. Neighbor bought him a Jeep Rubicon, put on a 4" lift, then ripped the V6 out of it and put in a V8 Hemi.

I bought my Clarity for the quiet commute on EV, and to insulate me from sudden jumps in gas prices should someone hint at some petroleum production issue. $7500 federal tax credit was a big incentive, as it got me a Accord-sized ride at a Civic price.
 
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Mowcowbell said:
Cheap electricity alone will not drive BEV sales. Our electric rates are cheap in Okla... $0.11/kWh... but gas is dirt cheap too... $2.19/gal. People here buying jacked up 4x4 pickups and diesels that struggle to get 15mpg. Neighbor bought him a Jeep Rubicon, put on a 4" lift, then ripped the V6 out of it and put in a V8 Hemi.

I bought my Clarity for the quiet commute on EV, and to insulate me from sudden jumps in gas prices should someone hint at some petroleum production issue. $7500 federal tax credit was a big incentive, as it got me a Accord-sized ride at a Civic price.
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Texas22Step said:
Here is an interesting article that discusses the very high electricity rates in the Northeastern states and its impact on sales there of all types of EV's.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1123926_affordable-electricity-electric-cars-northeast

From peoples' previous posts to this forum on many subjects, I have noted a wide scale of the cost of both electricity and gasoline in various parts of the country, both of which would naturally affect which fuel one picks to power a PHEV. But, I really had no idea that the average electricity rates in these NE states can be more than double the national average.

"In Connecticut, residential electricity costs 23.35 cents on average. In Massachusetts, it's 22.61 cents. In Rhode Island it's 22.37 cents. And on populous Long Island, where many commuters can reach Manhattan by car, standard rates for electricity can reach 47.86 cents per kilowatt-hour. That's nearly the equivalent of $5-per-gallon gasoline for electric-car drivers."
​
Since the Clarity PHEV allows its owners to essentially dynamically select the fuel type used for propulsion of the vehicle, one would think that PHEV's would be more attractive in these (and other) states. Moreover, these sort of numbers should inform state lawmakers as they make decisions about proposed surcharges to register EV's in their states to make up for "lost revenue" from gasoline taxes.
Click to expand...
Texas22Step said:
Here is an interesting article that discusses the very high electricity rates in the Northeastern states and its impact on sales there of all types of EV's.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1123926_affordable-electricity-electric-cars-northeast

From peoples' previous posts to this forum on many subjects, I have noted a wide scale of the cost of both electricity and gasoline in various parts of the country, both of which would naturally affect which fuel one picks to power a PHEV. But, I really had no idea that the average electricity rates in these NE states can be more than double the national average.

"In Connecticut, residential electricity costs 23.35 cents on average. In Massachusetts, it's 22.61 cents. In Rhode Island it's 22.37 cents. And on populous Long Island, where many commuters can reach Manhattan by car, standard rates for electricity can reach 47.86 cents per kilowatt-hour. That's nearly the equivalent of $5-per-gallon gasoline for electric-car drivers."
​
Since the Clarity PHEV allows its owners to essentially dynamically select the fuel type used for propulsion of the vehicle, one would think that PHEV's would be more attractive in these (and other) states. Moreover, these sort of numbers should inform state lawmakers as they make decisions about proposed surcharges to register EV's in their states to make up for "lost revenue" from gasoline taxes.
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For we PHEV & BEV owners in the NE, this article highlights the dirty little secret of the cost of running our vehicles. If the powers that be really want the masses to turn to electric vehicles, they better do something about the cost of electricity. It’s absurd. I’ve spoken to a number of people who would like to ‘save the environment’ but won’t be saddled with higher costs than ICE owners. I can’t blame them.

Trying to determine your actual cost of electricity can be daunting. I’ve even called PSEG, our local electric provider, and asked for the actual cost per kWh and received numerous non-answers. They admitted it’s almost impossible to determine.

Factored in to the cost equation is drilling through the various ‘tiers’ of electricity use (x$ for the first tier of use, y$ for the next tier and z$ for the tier after that). Then add ‘delivery’ costs per tier and other costs and you arrive at a very very ‘squishy’ cost per kWh. The best I can determine is about 20 cents per kWh for our area of LI.

Our electric costs have been significantly higher than others in our condo who own the exact same condo unit style. This has driven me to use the Tesla SC locations far more often than I used to. I used to leave the Tesla plugged in at home on my 240v line. No longer. I now let it run down to about 50-70 miles and take the 10-15 minute drive to the closest SC. So the Tesla is now removed from my electric cost equation.

The Clarity is another issue since we have only one free charger in our area and that’s too slow to be practical relative to my 240v charger.

Unfortunately with the never ending increase in the cost of electricity, I believe things will only get worse. In areas such as ours, the BEV/PHEV will be a tougher and tougher sell. Something needs to be done if large scale conversion to these cars is what’s really wanted.
 
Ken7 said:
For we PHEV & BEV owners in the NE, this article highlights the dirty little secret of the cost of running our vehicles. If the powers that be really want the masses to turn to electric vehicles, they better do something about the cost of electricity. It’s absurd. I’ve spoken to a number of people who would like to ‘save the environment’ but won’t be saddled with higher costs than ICE owners. I can’t blame them.

Trying to determine your actual cost of electricity can be daunting. I’ve even called PSEG, our local electric provider, and asked for the actual cost per kWh and received numerous non-answers. They admitted it’s almost impossible to determine.

Factored in to the cost equation is drilling through the various ‘tiers’ of electricity use (x$ for the first tier of use, y$ for the next tier and z$ for the tier after that). Then add ‘delivery’ costs per tier and other costs and you arrive at a very very ‘squishy’ cost per kWh. The best I can determine is about 20 cents per kWh for our area of LI.

Our electric costs have been significantly higher than others in our condo who own the exact same condo unit style. This has driven me to use the Tesla SC locations far more often than I used to. I used to leave the Tesla plugged in at home on my 240v line. No longer. I now let it run down to about 50-70 miles and take the 10-15 minute drive to the closest SC. So the Tesla is now removed from my electric cost equation.

The Clarity is another issue since we have only one free charger in our area and that’s too slow to be practical relative to my 240v charger.

Unfortunately with the never ending increase in the cost of electricity, I believe things will only get worse. In areas such as ours, the BEV/PHEV will be a tougher and tougher sell. Something needs to be done if large scale conversion to these cars is what’s really wanted.
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Also troubling, at least at this point in the U.S., is the way many providers are regionalized. This was not good for consumers of the legacy telephone system here, and will have to be dealt with sometime in the future.
 
Wow, I didn't realize the cost of electricity was that high in some of our country. I feel lucky to live in Utah where I pay 8.6 cents/KWh October thru March and 9.63 cents/KWh April thru September.
 
It’s funny, my opinion differs from others here in one area. As much as we like our Clarity, I would have loved for her to get a Model 3 instead. Perhaps because I’ve been driving an S for close to 2 years now, I’ve come to appreciate what Tesla has to offer. A wide SC network that’s free for us and very fast (faster than it takes us to stop for lunch) and a SC density that’s been accessible everywhere we’ve gone.

Then there’s the incredible acceleration and handling. Yes, I’d have opted for a 3 in a heartbeat, but the conservative side of my wife won out. To this day I still try to coax her in that direction. ;). But I still really like the Clarity.
 
Ken7 said:
It’s funny, my opinion differs from others here in one area. As much as we like our Clarity, I would have loved for her to get a Model 3 instead. Perhaps because I’ve been driving an S for close to 2 years now, I’ve come to appreciate what Tesla has to offer. A wide SC network that’s free for us and very fast (faster than it takes us to stop for lunch) and a SC density that’s been accessible everywhere we’ve gone.

Then there’s the incredible acceleration and handling. Yes, I’d have opted for a 3 in a heartbeat, but the conservative side of my wife won out. To this day I still try to coax her in that direction. ;). But I still really like the Clarity.
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Since the model S, I thought Tesla charges a fee for supercharger use now?

But, I think beyond BEV vs. PHEV, the underlying reason many EV enthusiasts have not bought a Tesla is simply cost. The Clarity is commonly had now in the low 20's (after incentives, or lease deals), whereas the Teslas have ranged from the thirties into the $50k+ range.
 
sniwallof said:
Since the model S, I thought Tesla charges a fee for supercharger use now?

But, I think beyond BEV vs. PHEV, the underlying reason many EV enthusiasts have not bought a Tesla is simply cost. The Clarity is commonly had now in the low 20's (after incentives, or lease deals), whereas the Teslas have ranged from the thirties into the $50k+ range.
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Free supercharging comes and goes at this point. Back in May, I believe, Tesla was offering free supercharging for all inventory cars. So it’s something you have to keep your eye on.
 
Ken7 said:
Trying to determine your actual cost of electricity can be daunting. I’ve even called PSEG, our local electric provider, and asked for the actual cost per kWh and received numerous non-answers. They admitted it’s almost impossible to determine.

Factored in to the cost equation is drilling through the various ‘tiers’ of electricity use (x$ for the first tier of use, y$ for the next tier and z$ for the tier after that). Then add ‘delivery’ costs per tier and other costs and you arrive at a very very ‘squishy’ cost per kWh. The best I can determine is about 20 cents per kWh for our area of LI.
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They are calculating your bill somehow, but customer service reps don't know how and won't even try to help. If it's worth it to you (maybe it's not) with some persistence it should in theory be possible to calculate your actual rate. In my case I went onto the Georgia Power website and downloaded all of the various rate and tariff sheets and then started entering things into an Excel spreadsheet to see if I can calculate my current bill. It took some trial and error because the tariff sheets would quote a particular rate for say Environmental Compliance Cost Recovery (ECCR) and show the rate as 12.7680% but it wouldn't say a percent of what. But on my current bill it showed the ECCR for the month as say $5.20, so it didn't take too long to figure out that it's 12.7680% * ((rate*kWh) + $10 base charge). In other words a percentage of electric cost prior to other tariffs. Several of the tariffs turned out to use that same calculation just with different percentages. But there was one tariff that was a percentage of electric cost plug a couple of other tariffs, essentially tax on tax. The nice thing is that once you get it calculating correctly you can easily make adjustments in the spreadsheet when rates change just by changing the percentage.

Once I could calculate my bill I then separated out the different tiers (we just have two) and calculated the rate including tax on each tier separately, and then made sure that when added together it still equaled my previous calculation (and the actual bill). Now I had the true rate including taxes for each tier. I only included the $10 base charge in the first tier since I pay that regardless of how much I use.

I am not tracking my total charging costs since I don't currently track my charging amounts, what I want to know is how much will I be paying per kWh when I plug in my car. For that reason I only look at the second tier rate because prior to getting my Clarity I was always into second tier anyway during the summer (our tiered rate is only during summer).

In your case I took a look at the PSEG website, I was curious since my sister lives in Ossining although I don't know if PSEG serves her area. It doesn't look like all tariff rates are posted or at least they are hard to find on the site. But I would think calling them and asking for a particular tariff rate I don't see how they wouldn't provide it or at least tell you where you can get it. Looks like some charges like Delivery Service Adjustment change once a year, meanwhile Power Supply Charge changes monthly and they list the rate on the website, but it's about the same rate each month so it shouldn't change the overall charging rate that much so probably could just use an average for that one.

Whether it's worth it or not or just estimate is the decision. In my case I'm glad I calculated it because I have now moved to TOU (Time of Use) plan, they advertise it as being a four times cheaper rate in the middle of the night. After I calculated it I realized that a lot of tariffs are based on kWh so those tariffs remain the same regardless of what rate you have. In the end I calculated that my rate including taxes in the middle of the night is about half price. Still good I'm not complaining but not quite as good as they make it sound. Especially since I now pay a much higher rate on summer weekdays, which I am able to work around but someone who is home during the week would find their AC usage during the day could more than offset the savings from charging in the middle of the night.
 
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I’m actually pretty comfortable with my $.20 estimate, I think it’s close enough. They offer a TOU rate, but that raises your day rate to such an extent to compensate for the lower nightly costs, that even PSEG admits that almost no one goes on that plan. They screw you in so many ways.

Next week I’m having them install a new digital meter that can be read remotely. I had demanded that someone come down to calibrate my current meter, but they offered a new replacement. I had asked the utility how I could know for sure that the existing one is accurate?
 
Ken7 said:
I’m actually pretty comfortable with my $.20 estimate, I think it’s close enough. They offer a TOU rate, but that raises your day rate to such an extent to compensate for the lower nightly costs, that even PSEG admits that almost no one goes on that plan.
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The standard residential rate that I had previously was 0.11 including taxes for eight months of the year, with a 0.16 tier 2 rate June through September. Certainly nothing to complain about.

With the TOU rate that I am now on, from 11:00 pm to 7:00 am 365 days a year I pay 0.05 (yes that includes all taxes and tariffs). All other times are 0.12, with the exception that weekdays June through September from 2:00 pm to 8:00 pm the rate is 0.33.

To work around the peak rate during summer weekdays I use a thermal mass method. I don't actually have a concrete thermal mass like some people build into their homes I just use the house itself as a thermal mass. With electricity being just a nickel from 11:00 pm to 7:00 am that's when I primarily run my air conditioning, it's more efficient during those hours anyway since the air is cooler outside where the condenser is, and cooler in the attic where the evaporator is. By morning the house is cooled down to my set temperature of 71 degrees, effectively sucking all of the heat from not just the air but the walls, the furniture, everything really. By doing that I don't have to run the air conditioning at all during peak hours, the house slowly warms to about 78 degrees by 8:00 pm which is when peak ends and I can run the AC again.

This has been working well based on my latest electric bills, I probably break even on AC compared to my previous rate, which is my goal, that means the savings for charging the car in the middle of the night are pure profit compared to the standard rate.

Ken7 said:
They screw you in so many ways.
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You will probably appreciate this saga that I am going through. My new rate schedule that I signed up for is called Time of Use - Plug-In Electric. You don't have to own an electric car to qualify but it wouldn't make sense for anyone else really. When I did the calculations I kept getting a number about $5 a month lower than my actual bill. Of course I assumed at first that I was calculating wrong somewhere, but everything seemed correct. Then I had a hunch about something. We have a tariff called Fuel Cost Recovery (FCR), but there is a separate FCR tariff sheet for the Plug-In rate and that is what I was using in my calculations. I thought what if they are using the regular FCR by mistake, so I plugged that into my spreadsheet and voila, it now calculated exactly. I have been on the phone with Georgia Power but struggling to get past customer service who of course can't understand any of it, they said they would pass my concern on. In situations like that always ask them to read you the message they are typing, it's always a hoot how wrong they get it and the key points they leave out, there's no way you would get any help. I said you need to say this in your message - tell them I am on rate schedule TOU-PEV-6. I should be billed for FCR using schedule TOU-FCR-TP-2, instead I am being billed for FCR using schedule FCR-24. I had them read it back to me to make sure they had it right. I'm waiting for my next bill to see if it has been corrected, if not then I'm back on the phone again. It's only $5 a month but I'll bet everyone on the plug-in rate is getting overcharged so hopefully by fixing mine it will fix everyone's. But of course this is the power company so they might come up with some bogus story why the lower tariff rate doesn't apply.
 
For all y’all in the NE and W Coast where power costs are are so much more than my $0.10/kwh (24/7) in KY, here is possibly a silver lining in your cloud.

Those high rates will make solar PV much more attractive by reducing the # of years to break even. Also those areas seem to be the ones where there are more utility, local, and state financial incentives. If you’re not planning on moving, it might be time to get some estimates and calculations about going solar PV. The Federal 30% tax credit starts being reduced next year though (from 30% to 27% I think).
And, if your roof needs replacing, you can claim that 30% tax credit on the entire cost of the roof if you add solar at the same time.

When you add up all the incentives and tax rebates (especially if you also need a new roof), solar can be a rather more attractive financial proposition than you my have thought.

Here in non-progressive KY where we have no incentives beyond the Fed tax credit and low electric rates, my break even point is 9 years ($1.50/W installed cost, net metering, $0.10/kWh rate, 4% rate increases). I bet with your higher rates and more incentives, your break even point would be considerably sooner.

You can calculate your anticipated savings and break even point with on line aids or have the solar companies calculate it. Most use the Aurora software and it has proven very accurate for the 7 months my system has been up and running. Just do your homework and be sure they plug in reasonable figures and assumptions in the software so you don’t get a pie in the sky spreadsheet. They will of course tend to paint a very rosy picture as they try to sell you.

I will never have another electric bill other than the $14 base fee and my solar system is guaranteed for 25 years for both production and parts (5 years labor). And I can run the ac and heat at whatever temp I want with no guilt and charge my Clarity all I want.
Plus, you just can’t put a price on being able to tell your local utility to “Kiss My Grits!!!”.

You should check it out.
 
KentuckyKen said:
For all y’all in the NE and W Coast where power costs are are so much more than my $0.10/kwh (24/7) in KY, here is possibly a silver lining in your cloud.

Those high rates will make solar PV much more attractive by reducing the # of years to break even. Also those areas seem to be the ones where there are more utility, local, and state financial incentives. If you’re not planning on moving, it might be time to get some estimates and calculations about going solar PV. The Federal 30% tax credit starts being reduced next year though (from 30% to 27% I think).
And, if your roof needs replacing, you can claim that 30% tax credit on the entire cost of the roof if you add solar at the same time.

When you add up all the incentives and tax rebates (especially if you also need a new roof), solar can be a rather more attractive financial proposition than you my have thought.

Here in non-progressive KY where we have no incentives beyond the Fed tax credit and low electric rates, my break even point is 9 years ($1.50/W installed cost, net metering, $0.10/kWh rate, 4% rate increases). I bet with your higher rates and more incentives, your break even point would be considerably sooner.

You can calculate your anticipated savings and break even point with on line aids or have the solar companies calculate it. Most use the Aurora software and it has proven very accurate for the 7 months my system has been up and running. Just do your homework and be sure they plug in reasonable figures and assumptions in the software so you don’t get a pie in the sky spreadsheet. They will of course tend to paint a very rosy picture as they try to sell you.

I will never have another electric bill other than the $14 base fee and my solar system is guaranteed for 25 years for both production and parts (5 years labor). And I can run the ac and heat at whatever temp I want with no guilt and charge my Clarity all I want.
Plus, you just can’t put a price on being able to tell your local utility to “Kiss My Grits!!!”.

You should check it out.
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And then there is this:

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envi...nuclear-coal-plants-renewables-efficiency-hb6

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