Mowcowbell
Well-Known Member
And Utah has 4 US Representatives while California has 53. That's part of the checks and balances.
High cost of electricity slows EV sales in Northeast
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He's doesn't have to go full EV. What about another Clarity in the family?
KentuckyKen
Well-Known Member
No charging at his work place either. As staunch a supporter of the Clarity as I am, I can’t recommend one if you can’t charge it at home or work.
He’s waiting till he gets married next year and they buy their first house. I am already planning to make sure it’s wired for an EVSE as my house warming gift to them.
He can't charge on 120V in the detached garage?
KentuckyKen
Well-Known Member
Condo pays for electricity to the row of detached garages which don’t have any outlets by design in order to prevent any electrical use other than the garage doors. Condo board won’t allow an outlet and paying charging costs on the honor system. It’s also prohibitively expensive to run power to an EVSE based on where the main panel is. Condo board is also very unsympathetic and apathetic. This dog just ain’t gonna hunt.
And when I visit, I have to run an extension cord to the parking lot from his condo and lock my Level 1 to the wheel. And then we get complaints about the extension cord running across the sidewalk. Argggg!
As much as I hate intrusive, big brother type big government, I’m beginning to think we need zoning laws to mandate charging infrastructure for new construction. Perhaps something on the order of at least requiring the main power feed and breaker box be sized the accommodate future EVSEs and the conduit run to planned sites of the EVSEs, especially at public projects like libraries, etc. That way, sidewalks and parking lots would not have to be torn up or parking spots lost because it’s already in the building plans. This would significantly reduce the cost of adding charging capability to apartment and condominium complexes, and public buildings going forward. The EV revolution is inevitable and we’d better start planning for it.
2002
Well-Known Member
Inevitable but a long way from even a half of all cars being electric because of infrastructure that you are highlighting, which is why I believe PHEV will be around for a long time. Won't work in the specific scenario you are talking about, but as long as a 120V outlet in a condo or apartment garage or parking space is available a PHEV will work fine, unlike a BEV which requires higher charging levels.
However paying for the electricity when using someones outlet I think needs to be worked out. Most people are lucky so far that their landlord or employer doesn't mind allowing them to charge for free, or paying an agreed monthly amount, or using the honor system. But that's not really sustainable or reliable long term especially as the number of electric cars increases. Maybe there is a need for a mobile EVSE that has built in communication to a central server for billing, you would pay the third party company and they would then reimburse the landlord or employer, paying the price per kWh that you and your landlord or employer have agreed on. There would be a small fee to the third party company which you would pay in addition to what you are paying for the electricity. The EVSE would probably need a GPS also so it would know when you are charging at a "billable" location that you have specified. It would still be the honor system somewhat, as nothing would stop you from sometimes using your OEM EVSE to charge, but your landlord would eventually figure that out when they notice gaps in the itemized invoice that they receive and you would lose your charging privileges.
KentuckyKen
Well-Known Member
My guardian angel must be working overtime. I just now got this email from Plug In America that discusses getting EVSEs installed at apts and condos.
It has a link to a California issued guide to this and says 4 states have passed laws that multi-unit-dwellings cannot unreasonably restrict EVSE installations. Don’t know how much this will help but it’s a starting point at least.
https://pluginamerica.org/ev-chargi...tent&eId=da12d034-96e4-4ada-a321-e9d697479b6a
It has a link to a California issued guide to this and says 4 states have passed laws that multi-unit-dwellings cannot unreasonably restrict EVSE installations. Don’t know how much this will help but it’s a starting point at least.
https://pluginamerica.org/ev-chargi...tent&eId=da12d034-96e4-4ada-a321-e9d697479b6a
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2002
Well-Known Member
Read the article and glanced through the guidebook, the guidebook by the way is very interesting but also gives an idea of the complexity of all of this. One thing neither mentions is who pays for the electricity. The article said nothing unless I missed it. The guidebook however makes references to whether there will be a meter as far as how it affects the installation, but says no more about it.
I'm guessing most people think they will just have to pay for an electrician to come out and run a new circuit and install an outlet or junction box, just like you would do at home. But if a meter has to be installed that really adds to the cost of installation as well as ongoing service charge cost. The laws that say landlords cannot unreasonable restrict, I'm sure it would not be considered unreasonable for a landlord to require that the installation is on a separate meter. I am guessing that this would thwart many apartment and condo dwellers from going through with it. Unless the utility will pay for the meter? I think some pay for the first meter at a house but I'm not sure how that works when adding a second meter to an existing home, or in this case additional meters to an apartment or condo.
It’s not really accurate to say that the system was designed that way by the Founding Fathers. Hamilton, Madison, and Washington, to name some notable examples, hated the idea, but gave in (in the “Great Compromise”) to the reality that the small states would have withdrawn from the Constitutional Convention if they didn’t get their way. Here’s Hamilton on the general subject before he capitulated:
“Every idea of proportion and every rule of fair representation conspire to condemn a principle, which gives to Rhode Island an equal weight in the scale of power with Massachusetts, or Connecticut, or New York; and to Delaware an equal voice in the national deliberations with Pennsylvania, or Virginia, or North Carolina. Its operation contradicts the fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. Sophistry may reply, that sovereigns are equal, and that a majority of the votes of the States will be a majority of confederated America. But this kind of logical legerdemain will never counteract the plain suggestions of justice and common-sense. It may happen that this majority of States is a small minority of the people of America; and two thirds of the people of America could not long be persuaded, upon the credit of artificial distinctions and syllogistic subtleties, to submit their interests to the management and disposal of one third.”
I don’t think even Lin-Manuel Miranda could set that to music, but it still sounds right to me.
Sorry for the digression; back to obsessing about our Claritys!
Domenick
Well-Known Member
Just a reminder to try to stay on topic. But thanks to all participants for staying civil despite politics raising its head here a little bit.
So, just looked up my electricity rates. Basically, Tallahassee charges about $.10/kWh, but you can pay $.12 and get solar-generated juice (or at least support their solar program, or whatever). I didn't get an EV to save money on energy, however. But, I am pretty glad that my vehicle fuel bill is about a quarter of what I would spend on gasoline.
So, just looked up my electricity rates. Basically, Tallahassee charges about $.10/kWh, but you can pay $.12 and get solar-generated juice (or at least support their solar program, or whatever). I didn't get an EV to save money on energy, however. But, I am pretty glad that my vehicle fuel bill is about a quarter of what I would spend on gasoline.
KentuckyKen
Well-Known Member
I don’t even keep up with the latest PoCo rate increases (averaging ~5%/yr) because I installed a 9.9 kW PV system that covers house and car power needs (approx 12.5 MW/yr) and am grandfathered in for 25 years of net metering. (And yes, I have factored in the yearly efficiency degradation of my solar panels which will be off set by replacing my 20 yr old AC with a higher SEER model when it dies.) As a result, I will always be able to generate 100% of my electrical needs.
So no more power bills ever and my Clarity and home are now fusion powered!
Even Al Gore can’t find my carbon footprint.
So no more power bills ever and my Clarity and home are now fusion powered!
Even Al Gore can’t find my carbon footprint.
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I too had a large PV roof array until last year, when I sold that house and moved to a condo that doesn’t allow them. One of the counterintuitive realities of generating your own electricity is that the relationship between what you make and what you consume is entirely psychological.
You can’t actually disconnect from the grid with a standard solar system. The electricity you generate is sold to the utility company. The electricity you use is bought from them. It feels right to say that you’re generating your own power, but given the fungibility of money you could just as logically say that your roof is paying your food bills. Similarly, as @Domenick points out, if you choose to pay more for clean power you’re not really going to get different electrons.
For me, the environmental benefits of an EV are what matters, even if my contribution to mitigating climate change is infinitesimally minor. Better to be part of the solution than part of the problem. This makes me indifferent to whether or not I am saving money by not purchasing gas.
You can’t actually disconnect from the grid with a standard solar system. The electricity you generate is sold to the utility company. The electricity you use is bought from them. It feels right to say that you’re generating your own power, but given the fungibility of money you could just as logically say that your roof is paying your food bills. Similarly, as @Domenick points out, if you choose to pay more for clean power you’re not really going to get different electrons.
For me, the environmental benefits of an EV are what matters, even if my contribution to mitigating climate change is infinitesimally minor. Better to be part of the solution than part of the problem. This makes me indifferent to whether or not I am saving money by not purchasing gas.