Ford makes deal with Tesla to share its Supercharger network

Rough, first combined version with normalized sizes:

View attachment 20681

No copyright, Robert Wilson 10 June 2023.​
Nice job...that puts a real perspective on the actual physical size (side by side comparisons).
I remember when I made the switch from CHAdeMO to CCS and how much less bulky (weight wise) also easier to connect (w/out the need for mechanical interlock) the latter was, this is a whole new level;)
 
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CharIN responds (leading global association with over 300 members) dedicated to promote interoperability based on the Combined Charging System (CCS) as the global standard for charging vehicles of all kinds.

"The global EV industry cannot thrive with several competing charging systems. CharIN supports global standards and defines the requirements based on the input of its international members. CCS is the global standard and therefore focuses on international interoperability and, unlike NACS, is future-proofed to support many other use cases beyond public DC fast charging. Early, unconsolidated announcements of changes create uncertainty in the industry and lead to investment obstacles.

Further, CharIN also does not support the development and qualification of adaptors for numerous reasons, including the negative impact on the handling of charging equipment and, therefore the user experience, the increased probability of faults, and effects on the functional safety. There are also a variety of technical challenges related to lower current ratings, variations of electrical requirements, and mechanical loads caused by the weight of the adaptor which may lead to wear and mechanical malfunctioning of the vehicle inlet."

Not exactly supporting the NCAS standard especially with the comments following:

"For example:

  • More than 300 domestic and international CharIN members are using or investing in CCS.The majority of major domestic and international automakers are using and supporting CCS, including Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General
  • Motors, Honda, Hyundai/Kia, Lucid, Lotus, Mazda, MAN, Mercedes-Benz, Navistar, New Flyer, Nikola, Nissan, PSA Groupe, Proterra, Renault, Rivian, Scania, Stellantis, Subaru, Suzuki, Tata Motors, Tesla, Toyota, Volvo, and Volkswagen.
  • In the U.S., CCS is used in over 50 passenger vehicle models, with more coming soon. The anticipated volume of these vehicles will exceed a single NACS supplier volume soon.
  • Charge point operators, infrastructure/component suppliers, electric utilities and oil companiesrely on CCS with high open market dynamics.
  • The charging ecosystem is still nascent and requires certainty around CCS to be confident ininvestments. Every deviation from CCS will impact market traction.
  • The Combined Charging System can connect to all AC charging stations without an adapter viathe J1772 standard.
  • Worldwide, there are 81,000 DC fast chargers using the CCS connector, compared to 45,000Tesla Superchargers according to data published by CharIN and Tesla.
  • In North America (including the U.S. and Canada) there are 22,262 CCS connectors compared to22,128 Tesla Supercharger connectors and 204,253 J1172 connectors compared to 16,009 Tesladestination connectors, according to recent PlugShare data (includes public and restricted use).
  • CCS cables and connector assemblies are NRTL recognized, which makes it easier for EVSEmanufacturers to adopt the standard and build equipment.
  • The CCS standard has been developed with full backward compatibility ensuring earlyinvestments are relevant to the growth of the industry, unlike other proprietary standards,including NACS.
In addition to the global dominance of CCS, it is important to note three additional facts:

1) NACS is not a standard

NACS is not a published or recognized standard by any standards body. For any technology to become a standard it has to go through due process in a standards development organization, such as ISO, IEC, and/or SAE. Such a process is collaborative and enables all interested parties to contribute their ideas.
The current CCS standard, including connectors and related communications protocols, is a true international standard that has gone through the standardization process. Any newly introduced idea, including a mechanical improvement to the existing CCS connector design, would have to follow the same process before the industry can safely adopt it. There is a significant chance that what is ultimately approved in the standards development process may not align with what is currently proposed.

2) This announcement is a proprietary implementation between two automakers and should not re-open eligibility decisions on public infrastructure funding

Public funding must continue to go towards open standards, which is always better for the consumer. Public EV infrastructure funding, such as the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) Program, should continue to only be approved for CCS-standard-enabled chargers per federal minimum standards guidance.

3) Recent activities and announcements will address concerns about charger reliability

CharIN joined the Joint Office of Energy and Transportation and the National Laboratories to support the launch of the National Charging Experience Consortium. The Consortium will address charger interoperability and reliability issues in public CCS deployments, which is appropriate to address jointly as an industry. Additionally, CharIN will announce other major interoperability initiatives in the coming weeks, including upcoming interoperability testing events. The entire EV industry should double down on activities to support public fast charging for the long-term."
And then this happened.:cool:
 
In General Electric, we used to ask "What is your value added engineering?"

So far, CharIN's engineering contributions escape me. Can anyone cite them?

Bob Wilson
 
They were trying to spec for every possible combination of V2X, grid integration, keeping the J1772 component
unmodified, wrap network security around it, yadda yadda. It's not clear to me that the data side of whatever
develops out of NACS intends to include all that, but it's also not clear that anyone *needs* to. Basic "plug-out"
capability, e.g. bidirectional power flow governed by some simple data commands between a car and another device,
would be amply sufficient. Put any additional complexity upstream of that, not at the charging port in whatever
physical form it takes.

I just ran across a long reddit thread that's worth grinding through...
. https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/145ebgo/
people do tend to blur the distinction between physical connector and data protocol. Perhaps we
should speak of CCS vs NACS, and CAN vs "ISO" to keep 15118-xx shorter.

_H*
 
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I know the CCS network is bad, but it's not bad enuf to keep tesla owners from using the more convenient CCS chargers. There are a lot more CCS chargers than Tesla. Tesla network is not the golden boy that some make it out to be.
I just got back from a 3,000 mile roundtrip road trip from PA to TX with about another 1,200 miles in Texas. I had very few charging problems with the various CCS charging networks. Once, I had to call EA to get a station reset and then I could charge. There were a few where one or two of 6 or so stations were offline. Overall, I was pleased with the availability and usability of the charging networks. I used a few L2 charge stations and my slow 120v EVSE at my Aunt's house.

2022 Kia Niro EV EX - CCS (USA)

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 
Continuing to explore the ramifications of this ... apparently Ford and Rivian intend to hand out NACS --> CCS adapters
to their existing CCS customers. Immediate question: they're likely to OEM those from some third party, so who's
it likely to be? And how many stories will we see of janky adapters melted and burning when someone tries to
shove 300 amps through them?

Does Tesla make the adapter piece for Magic Dock? Would they sell that piece to the general public, I wonder..

_H*
 
Continuing to explore the ramifications of this ... apparently Ford and Rivian intend to hand out NACS --> CCS adapters
to their existing CCS customers. Immediate question: they're likely to OEM those from some third party, so who's
it likely to be? And how many stories will we see of janky adapters melted and burning when someone tries to
shove 300 amps through them?

Does Tesla make the adapter piece for Magic Dock? Would they sell that piece to the general public, I wonder..

_H*
Tesla doesn't currently sell a CCS to NACS adaptor. It has the NACS to CCS only. I'm not positive, but I highly suspect Tesla makes the MagicDock adaptors.
OEMs don't always get it right, but hopefully they'll put more than enough due diligence into parts like this. A few fires can really put a hurt on an automaker.
 
I think your indictment against tesla is silly, and insulting Elon Musk does not a technical argument make. Tesla published the electrical specs for their plug, so pretty much anyone can add a "pump handle" to their DC units with a Tesla plug. The big problem with DC charging is getting enough juice to the box on the pedestal, not the plastic plug on the end of the cable. The difference for the electronics to control things is trivial, so once you have an 800v/400v/XXXv DC rail in your box you can tap the difficult part is over. The arrogance of the consortium promoting CCS not with-standing, the above pictures are precisely why I think we need to jump on NACS... I own a NiroEV, and a KonaEV, and I can tell you standing outside plugging in that awful clunky CCS connector in the freezing rain in Show-Low on the slick pavement was definitely not fun.
 
Polestar follows suit:
Polestar will adopt North American Charging Standard to enable access to Tesla Supercharger network in USA and Canada - Polestar United States Media Newsroom
Same as Volvo, NACS to CCS adaptors to be supplied for existing EVs and CCS to NACS adaptors provide with the 2025 NACS equipped vehicles.
I am hoping the Tesla API software will be included in the vehicle (same as Volvo), so the ability to supercharge does not require an app run on a smartphone (ie car is recognized by the charger). Payment could be handled simply by topping up a credit account on a PC , either Tesla or through Polestar (or whatever manufacture vehicle) - basically the same as using an RFID account with ChargePoint for example.;)
 
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Electrify America Will Add NACS Connectors To Its Chargers.
Now just really need to hear from the German automakers (and a more definitive response from Hyundai Motor Group).
Seeing as EA is owned by Volkswagen Group of America, it would stand to reason they would follow up with the same charging connector in their EVs.
Edit: within one hour after the EA announcement
"Within an hour of the Electrify America and Electrify Canada announcements this morning, parent company VW confirmed it is in discussions with Tesla to also adopt NACS.
If VW does go with NACS, they would become the third European automaker to do so, following Volvo and Polestar. That is of course unless someone else beats them to it, as we have learned a major German automaker is finalizing their deal with Tesla and an announcement should be coming in the next few days.";)
HMG would be left out in the cold if they didn't follow, especially considering all the new U.S. investments.
 
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Why does any given automaker have to strike a "deal" with Tesla to let their products use superchargers?
That's not serving the public in an equitable way. Any CCS car whose owner can deal with Tesla's effed-up
payment structure and has an appropriate adapter (soon) should be able to roll up and charge.

This continued exclusionist BS on several fronts is really holding the entire industry back far more than
is remotely warranted.

_H*
 
Why does any given automaker have to strike a "deal" with Tesla to let their products use superchargers?
They, the automakers, don't have to "deal" with Tesla. They could double the amount of time and money spent fixing the CCS-1 networks. You know, 2 * $0, and leave the CCS-1 customers with what they have today with their customers' EVs.

Tesla takes ICE, diesel, hybrids, PHEVs, and other EVs as trade-ins. For example, trade-in of my former 2017 Prius Prime brought my 2019 Tesla Model 3 Std Rng Plus down to $24,000. I financed the rest through my bank and paid it off early to avoid insurance comprehensive costs.

Bob Wilson
 
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Why does any given automaker have to strike a "deal" with Tesla to let their products use superchargers?
Because Tesla built, owns and maintains these superchargers.

Plus according to what I've read, Mary stated that Tesla would be charging the same price to charge for non-Tesla owners. If that's not to the greater good, then I guess I don't understand what the greater good means. That's a sweet deal for non-Tesla owners.
 
There seems to be a tendency to conflate the NACS plug with the Tesla supercharger network. Adopting the NACS plug should be independent from Tesla, especially now that SAE is standardizing it. But the supercharger network is a Tesla service that they have every right to make money from, and if other car makers want to make deals to give their car buyers access that's normal business. A number of EV makers have deals to offer free charging at EA locations (see list of incentives near end of article).
 
Why does any given automaker have to strike a "deal" with Tesla to let their products use superchargers?
That's not serving the public in an equitable way. Any CCS car whose owner can deal with Tesla's effed-up
payment structure and has an appropriate adapter (soon) should be able to roll up and charge.

This continued exclusionist BS on several fronts is really holding the entire industry back far more than
is remotely warranted.

_H*

This seems like flame bait. Either that or a total lack of understanding of how business works. Now that EA ( as I predicted in another post, about wanting to make money ) is going to add a 'NACS' pump handle on their electron pumps, the question becomes time & effort. Without spending grotesque amounts of capital, the charging companies cannot just run to every station and retrofit their pumps with the new handles. I use the gasoline pump jargon because the same evolution occured with the shift to unleaded gasoline. In the liquid fuel case the pumps had to be completely replaced or added independently to accommodate extra piping and storage tanks. Even though swapping some components and adding a cable is not as disruptive, it still takes more than a modicum of time and effort. While waiting for that to actually occur, automakers want to assure the people buying their vehicles that they have access to and adequate supply of 'electron pumps' if they want to travel. They also want to have promotions like 'free charging for a year' so in order to do that they have to strike a "deal" with whomever can service the request. If you put a NACS socket on the car, your service provider should really have NACS plugs. For now that's Tesla, but I'd guess within 2-3 years as the number of NACS plugs begins to proliferate on other networks, "deals" will be made with other providers, who want the money. It's called competition.

IMNSHO, EA is by far the most robust (nationwide) of all the non-Tesla networks. Their adoption of the NACS plug at their stations will likely be the proverbial hole that broke open the dam. This will force the rest of the industry to also install the plugs, which in turn will have the rest vehicle manufacturers adopting the plug because it is the most widely available, and people don't want to buy something "they can't find fuel for".

If Tesla doesn't clean up their billing/charging systems, they will rapidly find people will flood to alternatives as they become available. That being said, two years ago when I first got my EV, most of the billing systems and software were somewhere between abysmal, and awful for all the networks. Driving up to EVgo stations in the phoenix area, you had about a 30% chance you could actually use the system. I signed up to get a charge one time, because the card reader didn't work, and EVgo somehow enrolled me for monthly service. A few months later the card was compromised and replaced, and now two YEARS later, they (EVgo) has sent me to a collection agency for $30 because I failed to cancel the subscription I was unaware I even had. They got about $100 out of me for nothing already billing my card for a few months.

The last road trip I took in February Phoenix -Albuquerque this year was actually fine. There is a new EA station in Payson, which was down according to plugshare, so I went up thru Show-Low instead. The stations were all fully functional, and spaced close enough I had no range anxiety. I ran into a couple of Tesla's at the EA stations using CCS adapters. When I asked why, they said it was just more convenient for the path they wanted to travel. You don't need as many fast chargers as you do gas stations. They really just need to be scattered every 50 or so miles along the major routes, with a handful in town. If you can't plug in at home overnight for your day-to-day needs you probably shouldn't be driving an electric anyway.
 
I’ve know @hobbit since our Prius days and he is one of the more creative and active Prius and now EV engineers around.

I have long admired his well documented projects. We’ve not always agreed but good engineering means understanding alternate solutions and testing.

Bob Wilson
 
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