EV charging subsidy

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marshall said:
Without government involvement, we would be stuck with only Tesla
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No, without Tesla, we would be stuck with only ICE and paying for gasoline. Government support has been of minimal (a few $hundred million compared to many $billion) help to Tesla. Tesla has wisely optimized to use it but it has not been a major contributor.
 
R P said:
Here's a novel idea. Should provide free charging and subsidies to buy EVs, but only in areas where near 100% of electricity is renewables and there is an excess of electricity produced. And then penalize EV buyers with extra fees and taxes in those areas where the majority of electricity is not renewables, and/or there is a shortage of grid power resulting in brown/black outs. That might incentivize govts and corps to change how electricity is produced, and push off the coming crisis where more BEVs would completely cripple the grid infrastructure. And might also incentivize other types of EVs like HFCEVs which don't just depend on the electrical grid.
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So much so wrong here. Is this stuff still being introduced in 2021? I thought we put this tired anti-EV FUD rhetoric to rest back in the 2010's?
Today, the electric companies make a lot more money off of the oil industry than by selling electricity to EVs. The account managers for those accounts are among the most powerful in the electric companies due to the prolific revenues they manage. Therefore, a large part of the group-think in the electric companies would see this as incentive to stick with petro-carbon fuel.
Also, keep in mind that an EV, even if powered 100% from coal, still isn't any worse than most ICE in terms of CO2 or particulate emissions. This is because of the extreme efficiency of the electric motor and the electrical grid. EV emissions start about on parity with ICE but then improve to optimal as clean renewables are introduced. Their existence even helps facilitate the transition to renewables with a dispatch able load that can be shed when needed if, say a thunderstorm passes overhead blocking solar generation.
The issue of where the electricity comes from is just an untrue distraction being thrown up by the anti-EV propaganda machine in order to sucker naive environmentally concerned people from supporting EVs.
Since most EV charging occurs at night, when the electric companies would like nothing better to be generating revenue, they aren't going to affect the grid for a long time. In fact, smart charging, if implemented wisely, can offset brown/black outs by providing a large, easily dispatch able load that can easily be shed to help balance the load (Similar to, but better than HVAC shut-off). V2G might be even more helpful but even the easy solution will help the electric companies.
No comment on Hydrogen Fool Sells (except, perhaps, my choice of spelling).
 
Who's anti-EV, I'm not. I have had a BEV for 2 years and before that drove a HEV for 5 years. I am just proposing ways to increase EV adoption. I am actually a huge proponent of EVs, as I have demonstrated with my own actions. And I live in an area that has done a good job with electrical infrastructure. We have near 100% renewables here, and a lot more capacity coming online in the next few years.

Can you say the same for where you live?
 
So instead of doing a little research about where your own electrical grid power comes from, you call me naive??

And how is rewarding those that live in a clean environment being suckered?

Where do you live?
 
R P said:
Can you say the same for where you live?
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Since there was a personal aspect, I'll note that my electric bill is zero due to my personal production of solar energy. I still use the grid as my storage and realize it uses some non-renewable (our grid is not too bad but still has too much natural gas to suit me). I balance my $ towards where I believe they are best used which, for now, is supporting EVs, EV charging, and wasting time talking with folks about EVs. I think that wasting the batteries that are in short supply today for my personal power plant is not as good as leaving them for more EVs.
Once personal energy storage comes from old EV batteries, then I'll probably start looking that direction but with EV batteries mostly lasting over a decade, it will be a while before that is particularly viable.
 
Earl said:
Since there was a personal aspect, I'll note that my electric bill is zero due to my personal production of solar energy
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That's great, and I applaud you for that. There should be more of that, and incentives to promote solar production.
 
Earl said:
Your sincerity comes into question when this approach serves you so well personally.
Are you proposing a handout for yourself?
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I am just using where I live as an example of where past forethought and planning has produced a clean electrical grid that is capable of more EV adoption. We as tax payers and electrical users have paid for that, so yes, we should be entitled to the rewards.

As it happens I have yet to pay for a charge on my BEV whether at home or on trips. We have a lot of free charging where I live. And I received a $10K subsidy to buy my BEV. As a result where I live we have amongst the highest, if not the highest EV adoption in North America.

So why can't what has worked here, work elsewhere? I know it sounds radical, but I honestly have not seen/heard of better solutions to get us off of fossil fuels.
 
Earl said:
Who would buy an EV from a company that cares so little about what they're selling that they won't support its use by supporting charging infrastructure when that is relatively cheap and is essentially free advertising as a bonus?
It would be as bad as not providing service.
Of course, many who have bought a BMW i3 or Fiat500e, and tried to get service from their respective companies or dealers, would know what that is like as well.
I know so many hate Tesla but most of the hatred seems to be from jealousy in the fact that Tesla actually supports their customers (excellent charging infrastructure, over-the-air updates, service rangers, etc), unlike the rest. The rest (GM, Toyota, Ford, and Honda) have taken EVs away from happy customers, with threats of attacking credit reports, and crushed them. One even charged for minor scratches on cars that were destined for crushing.
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I don't hate Tesla. Tesla should be free to do what it wants within the law. I just don't think it should get public help to do that if it's in a closed system that doesn't use open standards.

It's like federally subsidized student loans. If a school wants to take the loans, it has to abide by certain government policies, like Title IX. Some schools, like Grove City and Hillsdale, decided they didn't want to. That's their right, but they can't get government help to do it.

Earl said:
No, without Tesla, we would be stuck with only ICE and paying for gasoline. Government support has been of minimal (a few $hundred million compared to many $billion) help to Tesla. Tesla has wisely optimized to use it but it has not been a major contributor.
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Tesla has gotten significant government help. A big DOE loan. Tax credits for hundreds of thousands of cars -- not just federal, but state too. Tax credits for charging infrastructure. Solar tax credits. State and local incentives for its manufacturing facilities. Not to mention fuel efficiency rules, which allow Tesla to build up credits that it sells to other automakers -- hundreds of millions of dollars annually.
 
Earl said:
I know so many hate Tesla but most of the hatred seems to be from jealousy in the fact that Tesla actually supports their customers (excellent charging infrastructure, over-the-air updates, service rangers, etc), unlike the rest.
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Who hates Tesla?
 
Calliope said:
Who hates Tesla?
Click to expand...

Hate, no. But things like this make me not like them and never want to buy one of their vehicles. Besides a Tesla, the Mach-e is the first EV we may consider as a second car for my wife (econo-box type EVs don't fit our buying habits) . If Tesla was not involved in things listed in the links below, we would have had an EV in our garage many years ago,


https://www.theguardian.com/technol...-lobbied-uk-to-raise-tax-on-petrol-and-diesel

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32346670/other-automakers-paid-tesla-record-354-million/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Earl said:
So much so wrong here. Is this stuff still being introduced in 2021? I thought we put this tired anti-EV FUD rhetoric to rest back in the 2010's?
Today, the electric companies make a lot more money off of the oil industry than by selling electricity to EVs. The account managers for those accounts are among the most powerful in the electric companies due to the prolific revenues they manage. Therefore, a large part of the group-think in the electric companies would see this as incentive to stick with petro-carbon fuel.
Also, keep in mind that an EV, even if powered 100% from coal, still isn't any worse than most ICE in terms of CO2 or particulate emissions. This is because of the extreme efficiency of the electric motor and the electrical grid. EV emissions start about on parity with ICE but then improve to optimal as clean renewables are introduced. Their existence even helps facilitate the transition to renewables with a dispatch able load that can be shed when needed if, say a thunderstorm passes overhead blocking solar generation.
The issue of where the electricity comes from is just an untrue distraction being thrown up by the anti-EV propaganda machine in order to sucker naive environmentally concerned people from supporting EVs.
Since most EV charging occurs at night, when the electric companies would like nothing better to be generating revenue, they aren't going to affect the grid for a long time. In fact, smart charging, if implemented wisely, can offset brown/black outs by providing a large, easily dispatch able load that can easily be shed to help balance the load (Similar to, but better than HVAC shut-off). V2G might be even more helpful but even the easy solution will help the electric companies.
No comment on Hydrogen Fool Sells (except, perhaps, my choice of spelling).
Click to expand...

Your points are mostly valid, but if you are living above the world average (extremely likely if you are in the US) and enjoying life, you have cheap energy and a US oil company to thank. I feel blessed to live the awesome life I have lived. And given the choice I would do it all over again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Recoil45 said:
Besides a Tesla, the Mach-e is the first EV we may consider as a second car for my wife (econo-box type EVs don't fit our buying habits) .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Saw one on the freeway the other day. Looked pretty good. And it's range is almost as good as the Kona, and it has AWD. Have to see one close up in a showroom, though, and a test drive, before I can offer a meaningful opinion.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html
 
My local rural dealer has one for dealer use only. Trying to setup a test drive with my wife but we are neck deep in a custom home build. It won't likely be until May that we get a test drive. Ultimately it's up to her but she is also greatly interested in a Land Rover.


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Recoil45 said:
My local rural dealer has one for dealer use only. Trying to setup a test drive with my wife but we are neck deep in a custom home build. It won't likely be until May that we get a test drive. Ultimately it's up to her but she is also greatly interested in a Land Rover.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Depends who her friends are, the Land Rover will win.:)
 
R P said:
Here's a novel idea. Should provide free charging and subsidies to buy EVs, but only in areas where near 100% of electricity is renewables and there is an excess of electricity produced. And then penalize EV buyers with extra fees and taxes in those areas where the majority of electricity is not renewables, and/or there is a shortage of grid power resulting in brown/black outs. That might incentivize govts and corps to change how electricity is produced, and push off the coming crisis where more BEVs would completely cripple the grid infrastructure. And might also incentivize other types of EVs like HFCEVs which don't just depend on the electrical grid.
Click to expand...

How about no. More government isn't the solution to problems created by government intervention.
 
SouthernDude said:
How about no. More government isn't the solution to problems created by government intervention.
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I'm not for more govt either. But they do set the rules about incentives and penalties. It is the wrong rules and interventions that have created the mess we are in now (at least in some places). I like my freedoms and liberties, but as humans we have proven that anarchy and mob rule doesn't work very well either.
 
R P said:
I'm not for more govt either. But they do set the rules about incentives and penalties. It is the wrong rules and interventions that have created the mess we are in now (at least in some places). I like my freedoms and liberties, but as humans we have proven that anarchy and mob rule doesn't work very well either.
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I am not an anarchist nor do I agree with democracy. It's just that government intervention in the economy is never efficient and always backfires. Advocating for more intervention is just putting fuel on the fire. It won't solve anything
 
Recoil45 said:
Hate, no. But things like this make me not like them and never want to buy one of their vehicles.
Click to expand...
Yes, Elon Musk was the reason I didn't want a Tesla, but in the end the specifics of the car won me over as friends told me I could ignore him and he's not the first company creator/owner who was of, shall we say, questionable ethics. I was seriously considering the Mach-e, but the delayed release (here in Canada) and the lack of a heat pump convinced me to drop them out of the running. Because of my changed driving patterns (since I bought my Leaf), I desperately need longer range and good thermal management of hot and cold weather.
 
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