Do you use Urban Public charging?

[GvilleGuy]

I think to get the ball rolling you need government support. I am in favor of adding a 5 to 10 dollar a year tax on EVs to help get the ball rolling. However in most states there isn't enough EVs to tax and will need some money out of the general transportation funding for a few years.

At some point, EVs will be able to stand on their own. So I don't see government funding as being unlimited.

I agree. It is not an all or nothing proposition. I believe in the short term some level of government support of charging infrastructure can create jobs and help boost the EV industry. I have ordered a Mini Cooper SE. I'm getting a full EV for $7,500 less than its ICE counterpart thanks to the federal tax credit. But this EV has an average range of 110 miles. If I take any road trips I will be looking for reliable DC fast charging along the interstates, not level 2 chargers at shopping malls. The fast charge options are somewhat limited in South Carolina with low EV adoption rates.

But - to the OPs question - when I am NOT travelling, I will exclusively use the Level 2 ChargePoint EVSE that is happily glowing green in my garage. I will not have a need to seek out public chargers.

 

[Puppethead]

The fast charge options are somewhat limited in South Carolina with low EV adoption rates.

Good news for you on the horizon, a coalition of six electric utilities are planning to build a "seamless network of charging stations" in and around the American South.

Some interesting comments on the story, such as one that says gasoline is an amenity offered by convenience stores, not a profit maker. The gist being those who make the energy (be it gasoline or electricity) are the ones who profit from it, and everyone else uses it as a way to entice customers to stop and shop.

 

[GvilleGuy]

Good news for you on the horizon, a coalition of six electric utilities are planning to build a "seamless network of charging stations" in and around the American South.

Some interesting comments on the story, such as one that says gasoline is an amenity offered by convenience stores, not a profit maker. The gist being those who make the energy (be it gasoline or electricity) are the ones who profit from it, and everyone else uses it as a way to entice customers to stop and shop.

That is excellent news - I hope it works out.

 

[SouthernDude]

Good news for you on the horizon, a coalition of six electric utilities are planning to build a "seamless network of charging stations" in and around the American South.

Some interesting comments on the story, such as one that says gasoline is an amenity offered by convenience stores, not a profit maker. The gist being those who make the energy (be it gasoline or electricity) are the ones who profit from it, and everyone else uses it as a way to entice customers to stop and shop.

This is great news. I hope to see more details as time goes on. I can't find any website or anything else related as far as plans go. This is a good step though.

 

[Calliope]

easily 60-65% of all drivers, in single family homes

Yeah, I'd buy that number -- not the supermajority of >95% you first suggested.

No, it's not a trope to rent a car to drive out of town, it is only mildly inconvenient, and it is very effective. It does however, require a paradigm shift in thinking, and many people like yourself are either too stubborn or too scared to consider doing things in a way other than the way they've done them for the past 50 years. EVs will never be ICE cars, so people really have to stop expecting them to be ICE cars -- in many ways they're better, and I think the pros far outweigh the cons, but they are different.

I suspect you don't drive an EV because you want a car like an ICE car, that you can use like an ICE car. That will never be an EV. If a driver isn't prepared for something different, then they won't get the benefits of driving an EV.

 

[SouthernDude]

No, it's not a trope to rent a car to drive out of town, it is only mildly inconvenient, and it is very effective. It does however, require a paradigm shift in thinking, and many people like yourself are either too stubborn or too scared to consider doing things in a way other than the way they've done them for the past 50 years. EVs will never be ICE cars, so people really have to stop expecting them to be ICE cars -- in many ways they're better, and I think the pros far outweigh the cons, but they are different.

You do realize that most new EV models now have over 200 miles of range and can charge fast enough at DCFC to make road trips possible right? The actual paradigm shift is recognizing that charging can happen while you are doing something else like, stretching, going to the bathroom, getting a snack, eating a meal, or sleeping. All of these activities happen at particular time intervals. Level 2 charging is slow and is really only useful where people sleep, which is at their residence or their hotel. Eating a meal can take from 30 min to 60 min, which completely matches what a 50-65kW DCFC can do and taking a bathroom or stretch break happens in 15-20 minutes, which is something that 100-150 kW can generally pair with. This is why its a waste of time to advocate to put Level 2 chargers anywhere people are not sleeping - the charging time doesn't match the activity the person is doing.

Plus, it is really inconsiderate for a local EV driver to take up a charger when they know that they don't actually need do it because they can charge at home later that day. In fact, it's actually worse than an ICE driver parking in an EV spot if you think about it.

(This "rent a car when you leave town" is an old trope. I remember crazies telling me to do that 7 years ago when there were barely any EVs that got over 250 miles of range. The idea that you are selling now is not going to get a mass adoption of EVs.)

 

[R P]

You don't expect to charge up fully when you stop at a L2 station destination. But it all adds up. All my charging so far on this car (almost 2 years now) has been free. And most (probably 95%) has been on L2s. As it happens I have one that is a nice 15 min walk from where I live, and a great excuse to get a little exercise. And it is offered by my local municipality where I live, and pay taxes, too. They are very supportive of EVs, and say so on their website. I agree with them, as the more polluting, smelly, noisy ICE cars we can get off the road, the better.

 

[SouthernDude]

You don't expect to charge up fully when you stop at a L2 station destination. But it all adds up. All my charging so far on this car (almost 2 years now) has been free. And most (probably 95%) has been on L2s. As it happens I have one that is a nice 15 min walk from where I live, and a great excuse to get a little exercise. And it is offered by my local municipality where I live, and pay taxes, too. They are very supportive of EVs, and say so on their website. I agree with them, as the more polluting, smelly, noisy ICE cars we can get off the road, the better.

Ok. So right now the government is paying for your charging at Level 2 chargers. When enough EV drivers get on the road in your area, the government will stop paying for it because it will be too expensive. This will happen well before EVs are selling at 80%+ in the market. To be honest, that could realistically happen within the next 5 years.

Obviously the majority of EV driving (85%+) for practically all drivers will be Level 1 or Level 2. However it will happen almost exclusively at their place of residence or whatever hotel/vacation rental they are at. The overwhelming majority of the rest of the charging will be at DCFC for long distance travel. Only a tiny sliver of the driving population will really make any use out of non-overnight Level 2 chargers.

Wanna know why I know that this will be the case? It's simple. In order for that infrastructure to serve a sizable portion of the driving population (like 30-40%), it would require nearly a quarter of all parking spaces to have a Level 2 chargers - Lord knows how many that is. All of which are redundant and unnecessary and it would be incredibly expensive to build out.

If you think I'm being ridiculous with my numbers, just think about how the majority of people do their shopping around the same time because they all mostly share a common work schedule.

 

[Calliope]

Obviously the majority of EV driving (85%+) for practically all drivers will be Level 1 or Level 2. However it will happen almost exclusively at their place of residence or whatever hotel/vacation rental they are at.

Right - that's why the key to increasing the penetration of EVs will be the addition of charging options at or near where people live, including multi-family buildings, not in adding more DCFCs for long distance driving. As RP said, even charging a short walk away is OK (at least, if you live in a place with reasonable weather), and I don't think it even has to be free. But it has to be there.

 

[Calliope]

You do realize that most new EV models now have over 200 miles of range and can charge fast enough at DCFC to make road trips possible right?

I meant to add this to the previous post (sorry):
But road trips are only a small part of what the vast, vast majority use their cars for - they want, as you said, to charge at night at home.

I think you don't understand what a trope is

 

[R P]

My point too, is that right now EVs sales need help from the govts, and businesses. They cost more to buy and without those incentives EV adoption and EV innovation would just crawl along, and not be more than an eccentric endeavour for most. The free market will not do it in this case, without govt pushing and support. And we all do want cleaner air, don't we?

 

[Puppethead]

How different is a level 2 EVSE from a street light? Those are paid for and maintained by local governments, and they are quite numerous. Also as high as 10 meters off the ground, so harder to reach for repairs.

 

[R P]

How different is a level 2 EVSE from a street light? Those are paid for and maintained by local governments, and they are quite numerous. Also as high as 10 meters off the ground, so harder to reach for repairs.

Well, in fairness a street lamp doesn't consume 7.2 kW. But if you add them all up on a street or area, yes. But your point is valid, there are many ways a local govt spends money to provide services for the public.

 

[SouthernDude]

Right - that's why the key to increasing the penetration of EVs will be the addition of charging options at or near where people live, including multi-family buildings, not in adding more DCFCs for long distance driving. As RP said, even charging a short walk away is OK (at least, if you live in a place with reasonable weather), and I don't think it even has to be free. But it has to be there

No no no. You still aren't understanding it. I'll break it down again.

95%+ of the driving population lives at a residence with dedicated parking. This means that in the long term it is reasonable to assume that this population will have charging at their dedicated parking spot.

The majority of this population already can charge at their residence. Most single family homes have available plugs and there are some apartments that already have available charging. This likely accounts for 60% of the driving population.

So, already the largest portion of the driving population already has effective charging at their home. So why aren't they buying EVs? The answer is obvious - it's because drivers are either not aware of the DCFC around them or there isn't enough around them. A Level 2 charger at a whole foods isn't changing that.

Why does that matter? It makes sense to do what gets the largest segment of drivers - that is drivers that can already charge at their residence - to buy more EVs because that will increase the overall sales of new EVs.
What does that do? As the number of EV sales increases, it will ultimately increase the number of available used EVs for the used market.
What will this do? It will send a market signal to apartment owners that more potential tenants will be driving an EV, so they need to put charging in to remain competitive.

I don't care how infrequent you assume that drivers make regional trips; few people are actually willing to spend 30k on a car that requires them to rent another car to leave town. You can screech all day long about how you think that is irrational, but nobody is going to change their behavior. Thankfully Tesla has been implementing a plan that's far more in line with my approach and their sales have only been increasing. Imagine that.

 

[GvilleGuy]

The funny thing is, you are both right, and I don’t think you need to keep saying the same things over and over. Short term government support of ALL types of chargers will help grow the EV market. I don’t think splitting hairs over Level 2 and level 3 chargers is needed at this point.

 

[Recoil45]

Huh? Taxes should pay for things that do public good, and last time I looked clean air and stopping climate change qualify. I would happily pay more taxes to help electrify the transportation system.

You are welcome to add a public charging station to your front yard and advertise it. The free **** army would appreciate it.


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[Recoil45]

I charge my Tesla Model 3 mostly daily, but at 1AM to 4AM when the public chargers are vacant/available. Living in Northern California, the PG&E rates, even if you opt for the time of use rates, are prohibitive. I installed as much solar as I was permitted to (and a Tesla battery) and at the most productive point in the day in the Summer I still don't have enough power to charge the car without using some PG&E power. When I run the battery in the car down below 100 miles range I typically will charge at an EvGo for $10-$15 dollars to 80%. Frankly, there still are not enough charging stations but I have driven the car more than 100 miles one way and typically charge at the location I stay/park at if possible.

Most people who are honest about solar and properly researched it cannot produce enough power to cover their home, much less EV charging, with a roof based solar system. The few who can have a perfect house with very low usage and likely have nat gas appliances and heat.


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[turtleturtle]

I feel like we’re going in circles here.

Some people need charging close to home. Some people need charging on the highway.

Just like we find gas stations in neighborhoods and on remote highway stretches, we’re going to end up with both.

100% appreciate charging at home impact, so likely we won’t have as many “gas station” equivalents in the suburbs.

The disruptor is that you can install a charger anywhere. You don’t need underground tanks. You don’t (usually) need permits. So malls, coffee shops, parks, and street parking, can all be charging stations.

It’s going to be weird until the right mix stabilizes. Right now we’re in the “weird” phase for sure.

 

[Fastnf]

Most people who are honest about solar and properly researched it cannot produce enough power to cover their home, much less EV charging, with a roof based solar system. The few who can have a perfect house with very low usage and likely have nat gas appliances and heat.


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I hear this all the time. For me its not the case. I have 6 kw of ground mount solar panels and have not paid for electricity in over 8 years. I charge two electric cars and power the main house that I rent out and my guest house which is all electric. I live in the country where there is no natural gas available. I heat the guest house with a heat pump. You can see the higher usage in the winter months but this is recovered in the spring when I don't need heat or A/c. Both houses are heavily insulated which helps lower heating and cooling costs. Below is a screen shot of my annual usage which ends up being slightly below zero net usage each year.

 

[SouthernDude]

I hear this all the time. For me its not the case. I have 6 kw of ground mount solar panels and have not paid for electricity in over 8 years. I charge two electric cars and power the main house that I rent out and my guest house which is all electric. I live in the country where there is no natural gas available. I heat the guest house with a heat pump. You can see the higher usage in the winter months but this is recovered in the spring when I don't need heat or A/c. Both houses are heavily insulated which helps lower heating and cooling costs. Below is a screen shot of my annual usage which ends up being slightly below zero net usage each year.

View attachment 10968

This is actually proving @Recoil45 's point. He isn't referring to net annual generation, he is referring to the capacity necessary in order to generate all the energy that would be consumed year round - hence the comment about using natural gas for space heating.