Do you use Urban Public charging?

[ericy]

Like I said, I think that the only infrastructure that actually matters at this point is DCFC. I totally agree with charging anxiety.

People coming from an ICE car tend to think in terms of going some place to refuel. So for them, it seems natural for them to focus on DCFC as that seems like a familiar way of doing things.

But most people who get settled into an EV lifestyle will eventually put in an EVSE at home so they can charge at home. And some people might happen to work at a place where there is a L2 charger. Either one works. Apartments are a challenge however - the vehicle owner doesn't get a lot of say about what the building owner decides to put in.

L2 chargers at shopping malls seem like a gimmick to me - people just don't spend enough time there unless they go to watch a movie. But they can be of use for PHEV vehicles with much smaller batteries and shorter all-electric ranges.

 

[Calliope]

Apartments are a challenge however - the vehicle owner doesn't get a lot of say about what the building owner decides to put in.

Even if they're condo buildings, where you are a part owner, there are still limits to what you can put in the parking areas and whether or not you can add 240V outlets. My current building will consider it - if I provide them with engineering and electrical plans to add a separately-metered charger, at a cost of about $4K, and that comes with no guarantee they'll approve it (and doesn't then include the cost of getting one installed, if I were to get approval). I wish it would be as easy as paying $1200 to get one installed in my garage!

 

[Mark W]

Almost never. We have two cars. 95% of our car trips are within round trip range of our EV. For the 5% that are beyond, we use our PHEV. For all the daily trips with our EV, there are no public chargers convenient to where I go. Also, unless the charging is free, it is often prohibitively expensive. I have a L2 charger at home that I use.

 

[marshall]

L2 chargers at shopping malls seem like a gimmick to me - people just don't spend enough time there unless they go to watch a movie.

I guess it depends on the mall. The main mall here is surrounded by a multistory apartment building, one of those extended stay hotels, and multiple restaurants. They charge 2.5 cents per minute. Plugshare shows it getting used from time-to-time.

 

[Domenick]

Considering the scope and scale of the change to electric vehicles over the next decade, I think it's clear we need a lot more public charging. I would really like to see a lot more curb-side 110-volt, low-cost plugs in urban areas, but there's still a ton of higher-speed DC fast charging stations that need to happen, future-proofed to 350 kW.
I know everyone has different beliefs about the role of public financing of the infrastructure, but I think there is a large role here for governments, both municipal and higher levels. In countries with socialized medicine, some of those costs my be offset in decreases, over time, of costs associated with combustion fuel emissions.

 

[Bruce M.]

And the rest of California, the vast majority who do not own EVs. But yay, some people get free dung.


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Huh? Taxes should pay for things that do public good, and last time I looked clean air and stopping climate change qualify. I would happily pay more taxes to help electrify the transportation system.

 

[Bruce M.]

I guess it depends on the mall. The main mall here is surrounded by a multistory apartment building, one of those extended stay hotels, and multiple restaurants. They charge 2.5 cents per minute. Plugshare shows it getting used from time-to-time.

There's a Volta L2 station at a shopping center where I go a couple times a month, usually for 1-2 hours. In that time I typically get anywhere from 20 to 40 miles worth of free electricity, which more than covers my driving for the day. What's not to like?

 

[SouthernDude]

I think the solution is the exact opposite - the best way to increase EV sales is to increase the number of L2 chargers near where people live. People shopping and researching EVs are told time and time again not to use L3 chargers for all their charging needs, because it can heat up the battery too much and can decrease the lifespan of the battery. Now, some people realize that the battery will still outlive the lifespan of the other car parts, but the science about L3 charging is right: L3 charging frequently is bad for battery health, and so convincing someone that they should spend more to buy an EV and then mistreat the battery is going to be a hard sell. Additionally, most people aren't willing to spend an hour plus sitting in their car once or twice a week like I am while their car charges, especially if it means that's time spent away from their families. Can you imagine trying to sell an ICE car that way: "Buy this car, and you only need to spend 2.5 hours a week filling it up." It would be like telling them that their commute just got 20 minutes a day longer. (time is longer than the actual charging time, to allow for travel to and from that L3 charger from home or work.)

No. This thinking is backwards. EVs have greater than 100 miles of range now. Think about it like this:

1. The ranges of electric cars are increasing and will continue to increase
2. A supermajority (95%+) of the driving population live in residences that have dedicated parking
3. A majority of the driving population with dedicated parking already have access to charging at their dedicated parking space

^^ From this it is reasonable to assume that a supermajority of drivers will ultimately do (and a majority of drivers currently can do) most of their charging at their residence. (Battery health is not relevant because it is already assumed that most charging is done at slower speeds)

As the sales of electric cars increase, the incentive for landlords to put charging at the dedicated parking spaces increases because an increasing amount of used cars will be electric.

If the overwhelming majority of charging can already be done at a driver's residence, what use is a level 2 charger at a shopping mall? Why would I pay extra money to charge my car somewhere besides my house or inconvenience myself to get my car a handful of additional unnecessary miles somewhere besides my house? It doesn't make any sense.

Here's another way to think about it. Let's say you spend $1 million on Level 2 chargers in any given city. Who is that actually benefitting? Realistically only a small number of people would actually benefit. Take that same $1 million and spend it on DC FC along a major highway. Who benefits? The entire driving population of the region. Why? Because now the entire driving population in the region and beyond can drive past the effective range from their residence - even if all $1 million is spent on one location.

 

[R P]

What you are missing though, is that 80% of driving is not trips that require DCFC. Most people use their cars for local commuting and local shopping, outings, etc, not going long distances. Long trips are more for weekends (not all either) and vacations. However, local businesses want L2s to attract EV shoppers. I know when we go shopping or to a restaurant, we prefer locations that offer free charging. And local govts like to support their local businesses. So helping build and subsidize that infrastructure is in everyone's interest. More customers, more business, and you get more tax revenue.

 

[SouthernDude]

What you are missing though, is that 80% of driving is not trips that require DCFC. Most people use their cars for local commuting and local shopping, outings, etc, not going long distances. Long trips are more for weekends (not all either) and vacations. However, local businesses want L2s to attract EV shoppers. I know when we go shopping or to a restaurant, we prefer locations that offer free charging. And local govts like to support their local businesses. So helping build and subsidize that infrastructure is in everyone's interest. More customers, more business, and you get more tax revenue.

Yes. I’m well aware that most trips don’t really exceed the effective range of EVs. I get that. Hence why I keep saying that the majority of charging will happen at the driver’s residence. Lol.

“However, local businesses want L2s to attract EV shoppers. I know when we go shopping or to a restaurant, we prefer locations that offer free charging. And local govts like to support their local businesses. So helping build and subsidize that infrastructure is in everyone's interest. More customers, more business, and you get more tax revenue.”

No. You are completely missing the point. Public Level 2 charging isn’t going to be what sells people into buying an electric car. I don’t care how infrequent long distance trips supposedly are, but few people are willing to purchase a car that they can’t effectively get to their relatives or favorite vacation spot - hence why EVs have barely taken market share.

Tesla’s supercharging network is one of their biggest selling points. It is literally the biggest reason why they dominate the EV market currently - and they are still putting out as many more as they can.

Why would I, or anyone for that matter, shop somewhere different when there’s no point to? The amount of additional business these Level 2 chargers will attract is pure vaporware - the vast majority of people would have gone to the place anyways and the charger would arguably have the opposite effect if it’s taken. A Level 2 chargers is barely going to generate any additional foot traffic. It’s never going to generate any serious revenue.

Level 2 chargers like this are redundant and unnecessary, so it is a waste of money to pursue it. The only exception to this is hotels because they have dedicated overnight parking.

It would take hundreds of Level 2 chargers to match the value that a single 4-plug DCFC location along a major route would bring.

 

[Calliope]

2. A supermajority (95%+) of the driving population live in residences that have dedicated parking

What does "dedicated parking" mean to you.......that they're not parking on the street? If so, you're correct, but then your third point - that they have already have access to their charging in their dedicated parking is not true. If you know it to be true, please offer the proof.

Or, perhaps you mean that a supermajority of EV drivers have dedicated parking with charging capabilities? If so, then you're right, but it's a useless point because it does nothing to improve the market for EVs, and if the market can't grow, it won't survive. Thinking that companies are going to sell more EVs by limiting them to home owners who can add charging in their driveway is pretty shortsighted.

Public Level 2 charging isn’t going to be what sells people into buying an electric car.

Probably - but neither is L3 charging on highways. If people can't charge near where they live, they won't buy an electric car. Period.

So: Why don't you drive a Tesla?

Buying an electric car requires a bit of a paradigm shift in thinking . Those 2 times you take the family to visit family or go on vacation, you could rent a car -- and still be saving money (and emissions) driving an EV the rest of the time. That should somehow be part of their sales pitch.......but people like to think they'll do all kinds of things that they never actually do, and so they want their car to fulfill all their possibles, not their reality.

 

[Thor_the_Electrician]

I charge my Tesla Model 3 mostly daily, but at 1AM to 4AM when the public chargers are vacant/available. Living in Northern California, the PG&E rates, even if you opt for the time of use rates, are prohibitive. I installed as much solar as I was permitted to (and a Tesla battery) and at the most productive point in the day in the Summer I still don't have enough power to charge the car without using some PG&E power. When I run the battery in the car down below 100 miles range I typically will charge at an EvGo for $10-$15 dollars to 80%. Frankly, there still are not enough charging stations but I have driven the car more than 100 miles one way and typically charge at the location I stay/park at if possible.

 

[HarryP]

And the rest of California, the vast majority who do not own EVs. But yay, some people get free dung.

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"Free dung"? The majority, including you will soon own EVs, because EVs will soon be the best deal for most everyone. Everyone will then breathe easier.

 

[Emily]

This question springs from another thread, and I want to pose it to a wider audience.

If you use your EV primarily for urban driving and commuting do you use public charging stations very often? I'm not including any long distance commuters here, or road trippers. Just those of you who are doing the daily urban driving that most automobile owners do.

I am always interested in the discussion about the need for costly infrastructure in the form of charging stations paid for by the taxpayer. I always ask myself why this is such a big deal, and is it just a red herring thrown in to public discussion by those who have no experience with EV's or have their own agenda? As the battery technology and range of the average EV increases, will there be a need for Urban Public charging infrastructure?

I've had my Leaf+ for almost 2 years and every time someone asks me about it they want to know how many options there are in the city to charge. Honestly I have never had to use one. My house has all the infrastructure I need, done at my own expense. We use the vehicle for urban transportation and commuting and unless I was to drive hundreds of Km's per day I really have no need for any charging facility other than my own garage.

I know I'm very fortunate to have a private residence and a garage so my perspective may be way off the mark.

We have a 2021 Hyundai Kona. To charge at home, we installed a home made level 2 charger but rarely use it. Living where we do, there are 2 DC Fast charging stations nearby so we do most of our charging there. If we are going on a long trip, we charge at a public station up to 80%, then plug in at home to get up to 100%. We've only had the Kona for 5 months, so we are still kind of excited to be able to drive on "free" power. However, we don't expect these stations to be free forever.

 

[marshall]

A majority of the driving population with dedicated parking already have access to charging at their dedicated parking space

They would have to charge on a 120 volt circuit unless they want to shell out the cash for a 240 volt circuit. Plus they will have to do something about all the crap they have stored in the way of the 120 volt circuit. From a personal experience, I've never had access to a 120 volt outlet at any apartment I've rented.

Public Level 2 charging isn’t going to be what sells people into buying an electric car.

It's not number one on the list, but I think it's number 3. If workplace charging gets installed and the cost to charge is equal to or less than gas, I believe word-of-mouth sales will follow.

 

[HarryP]

Even if they're condo buildings, where you are a part owner, there are still limits to what you can put in the parking areas and whether or not you can add 240V outlets. My current building will consider it - if I provide them with engineering and electrical plans to add a separately-metered charger, at a cost of about $4K, and that comes with no guarantee they'll approve it (and doesn't then include the cost of getting one installed, if I were to get approval).

Have you tried selling the idea of a shared charger to other residents? Since each EV only needs a high end L2 charger only a few hours, sharing makes the most economic sense.

 

[SouthernDude]

What does "dedicated parking" mean to you.......that they're not parking on the street? If so, you're correct, but then your third point - that they have already have access to their charging in their dedicated parking is not true. If you know it to be true, please offer the proof.

The majority of all drivers, easily 60-65% of all drivers, in single family homes - attached or detached - that more than likely already have charging access either through the garage or by outdoor plug. Some apartment complexes already have charging infrastructure or easily accessible outdoor plugs. If you add all that up it wouldn't surprise me if 65-70% of the driving population already had easy access to charging at their place of residence.

The best way to get the rest of apartments to put more residential charging is to increase the overall demand for EVs. Why? As more new EVs are purchased, the share of EVs in the used car market increases, which puts pressure on apartment landlords to build out infrastructure. So it makes sense to do what will increase the overall sales of EVs in the shortest amount of time, which would be to put out infrastructure that favors the situation of the majority of drivers - where the driver already has access to charging at their residence, but can't comfortably drive beyond the effective range of the car.

So: Why don't you drive a Tesla?

I am young, saving money, refuse to take a loan out to buy a car, and I don't want my options to be limited to solely Tesla.

If people can't charge near where they live, they won't buy an electric car. Period.

Yes, obviously. Thankfully most drivers already can charge where they live.

Buying an electric car requires a bit of a paradigm shift in thinking . Those 2 times you take the family to visit family or go on vacation, you could rent a car -- and still be saving money (and emissions) driving an EV the rest of the time. That should somehow be part of their sales pitch.......but people like to think they'll do all kinds of things that they never actually do, and so they want their car to fulfill all their possibles, not their reality.

That "buy an EV and rent a car to go out of town" trope is a very old EV argument and it isn't effective. Most drivers don't care enough about the environment to inconvenience themselves that much (including environmentalists), hence why low range EVs don't sell very well. EV ranges have drastically increased since several years ago, so the whole "rent when you go outside of town" mindset is unnecessary.

Secondly, it doesn't matter how infrequent you assume long distance travel for vacations is. People value vacation time far more than the time they spend to run errands, so obviously people will care far more about how EVs affect their vacations.

 

[SouthernDude]

They would have to charge on a 120 volt circuit unless they want to shell out the cash for a 240 volt circuit. Plus they will have to do something about all the crap they have stored in the way of the 120 volt circuit. From a personal experience, I've never had access to a 120 volt outlet at any apartment I've rented.

This isn't really a big issue. Moving a few boxes to get to a plug is low effort. The decision to put a 240v circuit is a decision only the homeowner can make, but it really isn't necessary in most cases. I would say about 5-10% of apartments have access to 120v plugs. This has been the case for me on two occasions. There are more apartment complexes than you think that already have dedicated 240v EV chargers.

It's not number one on the list, but I think it's number 3. If workplace charging gets installed and the cost to charge is equal to or less than gas, I believe word-of-mouth sales will follow

As EV ranges get longer, the necessity to charge away from home decreases. The only reason why people go on about Level 2 charging is because they are using lower range EVs as a reference point. If someone has a 250+ mile range EV and dedicated charging at their place of residence, then what use is a Level 2 charger somewhere in town to the driver? It's redundant.

 

[marshall]

I'll have to take a look, but I believe some of the garages don't have a place to park without blocking the alley. A couple houses next to me don't have a garage at all. Some of the garages are so old, knob and tube wiring, that they may not have a working 120 volt outlet. The door is probably going to have to be slightly open, so you now have a potential rodent problem.

So I think home charging is a bigger issue than you think. It's not the biggest issue, but when I look at all the cars parked on the street, it's an issue.

 

[R P]

The number one reason I bought an EV, almost 2 years ago now, was actually that it would save me money over time. At the time I calculated a 3 to 4 year payback, over buying the same trim Kona as my EV version. I live in a high gasoline cost area (highest for any major city in NA), coupled with the abundance of free chargers, both fast and L2 (I have yet to pay for a charge). We also had a large govt subsidy ($10K) come into effect at that time (May 1, 2019). That worked out to only about $8K diff if I had bought the same ICE trim. My payback was based on 20K kms a year. I actually thought I would do more. The first year, we did almost 20K, but with the pandemic, our driving was less this past year, so will fall short of that estimate. So my payback will be closer to 5 years. Still not bad. And we like the car.

So more charging infrastructure will be good, but is not a limiting factor where I live anyway. But it was the subsidy that was the tipping point for me.