Cold weather behaviour and observations

Battery management logic will restrict charging based on temp (high or low) to protect the battery.
Not sure if that's the issue in your case, but something to be aware of.
I have seen my charging rate drop 50% in the middle of a charge for 20 minutes or so and then resume to full rate for the rest of the session.
 
After last night’s overnight charge it’s showing 5 add’l miles EV range (46 vs 41).

32170811758_353885d950.jpg


I assume that’s typical for it being about 5° to 10° warmer?

Or does it “learn” how one drives? I drove a gingerly 96 miles yesterday in ECON mode. First data point which I’ll post shortly to my thread on”Mission Profile”.
 
908D9765-D513-421B-BC64-8D4149DAF569.webp 908D9765-D513-421B-BC64-8D4149DAF569.webp Clearly I’m a lead foot with the battery then! Totally surprised at the poor range this morning:
 

Attachments

  • 9F0A7A20-7516-4E0E-A997-7C5064320BF7.webp
    9F0A7A20-7516-4E0E-A997-7C5064320BF7.webp
    16.4 KB · Views: 20
DucRider said:
The range numbers quoted by Honda are derived from standardized tests conducted in a lab under controlled conditions. They are essentially an average that the consumer can expect. In mild weather they can be easily exceeded, in cooler temps the range will be much less. Driving style and speed also will move the needle up or down.

This infographic is a nice snapshot that can help many understand the impact of cold weather and the factors that influence it:
FleetCarma-Electric-vs-Gas-Fuel-Efficiency-below-freezing3.png


They also have a webinar with more detail for those interested:
http://www.fleetcarma.com/resources/the-truth-about-electric-vehicles-in-cold-weather-webinar/
Click to expand...
The top graphic says the range on gas vehicles (19% reduction at 0 degrees) are less affected by lower temps than the range on electric vehicles (29% reduction), but the last graphic says electric vehicle payback increases at lower temps. These two facts don't match. Especially if you consider electric vehicles are dropping up to 43% in efficiency for heating the cabin.
 
Candice said:
The top graphic says the range on gas vehicles (19% reduction at 0 degrees) are less affected by lower temps than the range on electric vehicles (29% reduction), but the last graphic says electric vehicle payback increases at lower temps. These two facts don't match. Especially if you consider electric vehicles are dropping up to 43% in efficiency for heating the cabin.
Click to expand...

I see your point, but they actually do match (using their numbers) as I see it. The *percentage* rise (loss in efficiency) is worse for electric, but since it’s calculated off a lower baseline rate (and a cheaper energy source), the *absolute* rise in cost per mile is less for electric as we transition to winter. So the *absolute* difference between gas and electric per mile increases with cold weather. As you say, the lower right column is their “final summary” reflecting this.

As I see it, If the neighbor kid tells me he’s going to raise his rates for raking my lawn by 30% from $10 to $13, and the landscaping company tells me they are only raising their rates for raking by 10% from $500 to $550, the neighbor kid is an even better deal after the raises ($537 cheaper vs $490 cheaper) despite his higher % price hike.

I have no opinion about their numbers, but I’m ok with the calculations from them.


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
 
Candice said:
The top graphic says the range on gas vehicles (19% reduction at 0 degrees) are less affected by lower temps than the range on electric vehicles (29% reduction), but the last graphic says electric vehicle payback increases at lower temps. These two facts don't match. Especially if you consider electric vehicles are dropping up to 43% in efficiency for heating the cabin.
Click to expand...

P.S. That said—that their calculations are internally consistent—I think their baseline costs are wildly off.

They quote a starting (73 degree) cost of $0.026/mile for electric and $0.15/mile in gas costs. This is presumably super-efficient electric (and state with low elec costs) vs gas guzzler ICE

For those of us interested in knowing how *the Clarity performs against itself*,” in ICE vs electric, which is what this thread is about mostly:

Clarity on battery: Here in MA, assuming 0.3 kwH/mi and $0.26/kWH including delivery costs): baseline $0.08 a mile for electric, at the warm temperature.

Clarity on gas: Here in MA, assuming 40mpg and 2.75/gal of gas: $0.07/mile for gas at warm temp

I’ll call them equal just because this is a guess. Then, when you consider how costs rise at a colder temperature as they did in this spreadsheet, the gas actually becomes cheaper per mile (since it increases less).

Quite possible I’ve made mistakes here, but my $0.02.







Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
 
The math certainly changes with different energy costs.
Currently in the Portland OR area, avg gas cost is $3.21 and electricity with delivery is $0.116
Using your economy numbers, that would be:
$.035 per mile electric
$.08 per mile for gas
 
Thanks for the info,now I don't feel so bad about driving in cold weather with HV mode.
I have noticed that the engine runs more to keep the coolant over 160 F when the heat is set to Hi.
Tested HV recharge for heat output in the cabin.
Since the clutch doesn't lock up, it makes this mode less attractive.
 
Russl said:
I'm curious whether something I've noticed is temperature related or if I'm just crazy...

We've only had the car for about 6 weeks and 1400 miles. We're in Minnesota so closer to Canadian temperatures than most of the US. In the past week or so we've had temperatures in the single digits and teens Fahrenheit so lower than the 30s and 40s we'd seen up til now. This week I noticed a pretty distinct switch over from regenerative braking to friction braking when slowing for a turn. I could feel it in the pedal and see it in a big decrease in the amount of charge going back into the battery.

This made sense to me when first leaving the house with a full charge, where the battery didn't have the ability to accept much more energy. But it seems to happen even after the charge is depleted quite a bit. I don't remember noticing this earlier so I'm wondering if a cold battery can't take a charge at that amperage so the system stops it.

Has anyone else seen this?
Click to expand...

I also experience this almost daily in the morning on my way to work. I don’t know if it related to the cold, it can happen when it is 37F out or 27F. The car will only regenerate a little (as I watch the needle dip slightly into the green area) but it will not go past about a few mm. This had happened even when I am down to 25 miles remaining of EV, so it’s not a full battery thing.
The car will eventually start allowing full regen braking, but I think it is only because by the time it has not been working for 15 miles or so I get frustrated and keep switching between driving modes to try and figure out what might make it work again.
Or, something else?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
E10 said:
The car will only regenerate a little (as I watch the needle dip slightly into the green area) but it will not go past about a few mm.
Click to expand...

This is normal, at least for Honda. It starts with the battery sitting with an outside temp of 50 degrees or so. You can see that regen will not add much back into the battery depending on temperature, not counting if the battery is full. When the battery is full, regen is restricted also. As you drive and/or use the main battery it will heat up. As the temperature of the battery increases, so does the amount of regen. As I said, starting around 50 degrees there will be some restriction of regen. The colder it is, the more it is restricted and the longer it takes to get back to full regen. On my Fit EV I noted that at 30 degrees or less there would very little regen to start with. After I drove about 10 miles or so then regen would be back to normal. I've observed that the Clarity Electric is operating similar to the Fit.
 
Just in case someone has the experience from last year. The manual and documentation states that at -30C there will be battery issues with starting the car. Not that it ever gets that cold (often), but there may be times where the car is not plugged in (nor can it be) at those temperatures. Does that mean that I wouldn't be able to start the car at all or that it means the ICE turns on and need to drive under ICE while the battery warms up. BTW I'm in Canada so have the battery warmer, but there may be times when I can't plug in overnight and the temps may drop to those temperatures and want to know if I need to wait to start my car after the temp warms up or if I'll be stuck.
 
Kranberry said:
Just in case someone has the experience from last year. The manual and documentation states that at -30C there will be battery issues with starting the car. Not that it ever gets that cold (often), but there may be times where the car is not plugged in (nor can it be) at those temperatures. Does that mean that I wouldn't be able to start the car at all or that it means the ICE turns on and need to drive under ICE while the battery warms up. BTW I'm in Canada so have the battery warmer, but there may be times when I can't plug in overnight and the temps may drop to those temperatures and want to know if I need to wait to start my car after the temp warms up or if I'll be stuck.
Click to expand...
@Kranberry, see page 466 of the Owner's manual. Seems to indicate that if temps are low enough the car may not start. The car, in Canada, really wants to be plugged in in really cold temps.Screenshot_20181205-142441_Word.webp

Sent from my SM-G955U using Inside EVs mobile app
 
Richard_arch74 said:
@Kranberry, see page 466 of the Owner's manual. Seems to indicate that if temps are low enough the car may not start. The car, in Canada, really wants to be plugged in in really cold temps.View attachment 3067

Sent from my SM-G955U using Inside EVs mobile app
Click to expand...

I saw that in my manual already, but wondering what people have experienced. Imagine the temps being around -30 or lower, you go to the mall, they only have outside parking, you are there for enough hours that the battery definitely is -30 or lower and for a few hours, is Honda saying I can't move my car? I just wanted to see if any real life experience out there with this situation.
 
I don't believe a sold Clarity PHEV has yet seen -30 C, so there probably won't be any real-world experiences to report. Taking Honda at its word, if your battery is -30 C, your Clarity won't start. Your best bet for shopping in -30 C weather is to choose a mall with a public EVSE where you can plug-in to recharge and then get your battery warmer working. If there's already another car occupying that EVSE, turn around, go home, and plug back in.
 
insightman said:
I don't believe a sold Clarity PHEV has yet seen -30 C, so there probably won't be any real-world experiences to report. Taking Honda at its word, if your battery is -30 C, your Clarity won't start. Your best bet for shopping in -30 C weather is to choose a mall with a public EVSE where you can plug-in to recharge and then get your battery warmer working. If there's already another car occupying that EVSE, turn around, go home, and plug back in.
Click to expand...

Agreed that it is rare, but not impossible. The recorded lowest temperature for my city is -35.2 Celcius recorded in January 1994. Normally we only get to around -15 to -20 and those are uncommon as well.

I'm not expecting temperatures to ever go that low, but my inquiring mind wanted to know if the car would start. Too bad ICE couldn't turn on (albeit it may have difficulty starting in such cold weather) to warm the battery.
 
insightman said:
Your best bet for shopping in -30 C weather is to choose a mall with a public EVSE where you can plug-in to recharge and then get your battery warmer working.
Click to expand...
Not being from Canada, I don't have a battery warmer. I will drive my other car if the temperature is that low ... or even better, not venture outside.
 
Kranberry said:
Agreed that it is rare, but not impossible. The recorded lowest temperature for my city is -35.2 Celcius recorded in January 1994. Normally we only get to around -15 to -20 and those are uncommon as well.

I'm not expecting temperatures to ever go that low, but my inquiring mind wanted to know if the car would start. Too bad ICE couldn't turn on (albeit it may have difficulty starting in such cold weather) to warm the battery.
Click to expand...
That's what I meant, there were no Clarity PHEVs in 1994, so no one other than Honda can predict what will happen. There weren't even any hybrid cars with fancy batteries.
 
I was taken aback when I read that in the manual. They sure don't advertise it. What happens to us here in Vermont where -22F is not unusual and we have the US model with no battery heater? Glad I am retired. It's been many decades since I had to call in because the car wouldn't start in the cold. I guess it's back to the 20th century future.
 
With diligent attention to power-management, my Clarity currently gets about 32 miles of estimated range. Overnight temps around 25F and daytime around 40F. If I use the cabin heater, my estimate range drops to 26 miles. Like others I've learned the heated seats are more forgiving, and I do run the cabin heat as needed for defrost. Luckily my weekday driving averages about 25 miles. So I typically have some miles left when I get home, or I use them all but not really using the gas engine for M-F commute. But yes, my loss during winter has been more like 30-44%, not 20%. -Dan
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top