electriceddy
Moderator
Wait until you get it back, it is located at the rear of the pack on the drivers side (left) behind the rear suspension.
Battery Recall 196 - Dead after recharging
- Thread starter gonzo
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Lars
Well-Known Member
I was promised they will get it for us.
Lars
Well-Known Member
I always drive in Normal mode with Regen set to 3 (for all modes). But I will experiment when I get my car back with the new NUTS!
Told them to inquire about if they also need one time use lock washers. I start to hate surprises.
Lars
Well-Known Member
Thanks...just checking your battery manufacture date . The date of 2020/06/17 on your old pack is past the recall car manufacture date of March/2020 which is not really the news I was anticipating. The BMS ROM ID is identical to mine as is the Part#37501-K4054.
The only difference between mine and your old one is the manufacture date - mine being 2020/8/27, ~2 months later production than yours. Not sure how long they stock the individual cells before assembly into module/pack format, but I am hoping they may used some cells possibly manufactured before March/20 in your old pack, and the cells in mine are assembled with later manufactured ones (hopefully without defects as but I guess only time will tell. It is nice to keep track of these things, just to provide a little more clarity for the answer to the chicken or egg scenario; was it a manufacturing defect that was found and corrected or BMS issues (overcharging/overvoltage/cell leakage thru insulation separators etc).
Thanks for the update. BTW - what is the label on your new one?
EDIT- you must have changed your previous post, sorry to hear about the bolts, that would drive me nuts
Hopefully they get the new ones in quick.
Here is the label from my new battery.
electriceddy
Moderator
Same part# and BMS ROM ID as mine. Manufacture date on mine is 2020/8/27 so your is ~5 weeks younger. Hopefully these ones last a lot longer than your previous one manufactured 2020/06/17 and it was a one off after the recall close date of March 13/2020- note the BMS ROM ID and part # are the same in your original.
BTW congratulations on finally getting your car back
mvillalta87
New Member
Same part# and BMS ROM ID as mine. Manufacture date on mine is 2020/8/27 so your is ~5 weeks younger. Hopefully these ones last a lot longer than your previous one manufactured 2020/06/17 and it was a one off after the recall close date of March 13/2020- note the BMS ROM ID and part # are the same in your original.
BTW congratulations on finally getting your car back
Hello good afternoon everyone! Approximately 3 months ago I bought a kona 64kWh model 2021, my battery ethytiquette is the same as lars, 4054, P / N: 37501 peero the bms rom is: ID7020 and the date of manufacture of the battery is 2020/12/02.
so I understand that the problems of batteries "before" March should no longer have them, although Lars 2 and his June battery had the same problem.
Have you had problems again? Do you have any type of degradation and how many km's? Mine at the perfect moment, 6000km and charging 100% every week and no problem, all perfect.
And another issue, conocéis a alguien con degradación en el kona con estas nuevas baterias? Recomendais cargar entre el 20% y el 80%?
And another topic, do you know someone with degradation in the kona with these new batteries? Do you recommend charging between 20% and 80%?
mvillalta87
New Member
Hello good afternoon everyone! Approximately 3 months ago I bought a kona 64kWh model 2021, my battery ethytiquette is the same as lars, 4054, P / N: 37501 peero the bms rom is: ID7020 and the date of manufacture of the battery is 2020/12/02.
so I understand that the problems of batteries "before" March should no longer have them, although Lars 2 and his June battery had the same problem.
Have you had problems again? Do you have any type of degradation and how many km's? Mine at the perfect moment, 6000km and charging 100% every week and no problem, all perfect.
And another issue, conocéis a alguien con degradación en el kona con estas nuevas baterias? Recomendais cargar entre el 20% y el 80%?
And another topic, do you know someone with degradation in the kona with these new batteries? Do you recommend charging between 20% and 80%?
Lars
Well-Known Member
Hi;
I am at 27,000km and my Kona works perfectly with the new HV battery, installed in I think in Feb, 2021. No degradation noticed. I very rarely charge to 100%, only before long trips. The guesstimated range (@100% and Climate set to 22C) varies between 442 and 455km, depending on weather temp 3C and 24C respectively. The guesstimated range @ 100% charge with Climate=OFF varies between 451-478km. For our regular use 80% charge, with Climate set to 22C, the guessed range between 338-359km is more than plenty. With rare exceptions I beat the guesstimated distance with no trouble. I am not worried about these numbers.
Suggestion: If your travel/usage pattern allows, do not charge to 100%. Batteries tend to last longer if used between 20 and 80%.
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mvillalta87
New Member
Thank you so much Lars for responding so quickly! I very much appreciate your comments. We are delighted with the car, it goes fable, only there is a high whistle between 60kmh and 107kmh, once exceeded 107kmh no longer whistles the high noise, for everything else. THAT'S GREAT!!
Lars
Well-Known Member
A $40,000 car with 6,000km should not 'whistle' at any speed. I would get rid of that whistle while the car is under warranty. Take it back to the dealer to record the issue on your car. It could be as simple as a poorly closing door/tailgate or window, or indicate something more sinister. 'Hire' your passenger(s) to help you find the location of the source - left, right, front, rear etc. This info will help the technician.
mvillalta87
New Member
Good morning Lars,
It turns out that this noise is made by all the konas and Eniro's, it is a matter of the engine and it seems normal, it is a very subtle noise but if you go without ña eadio or music it is heard, I already took it to the mechanic and I said I will vary clmo whenever they did not hear anything, after more eato and insist, they listened to it but told me that they were not going to remove that and that it was normal.
Even in a Bjorn video called Noise Test at 90 (min 0:50) you can hear it, at 120 not and at 70 you hear a little less but at 90 if clearly. Listen to it several times and you will see that at 120 you can only hear air. It's a high-pitched noise.
video test Bjorn:
Lars
Well-Known Member
mvillalta87
New Member
Maybe it is may 'senior hearing', but I never noticed this high pitched noise.
Can you tell the difference in the video? It is very sharp as if it were pressurized air, do you manage to differentiate and listen to it in the video?
When you take the car again, if you could try it it would be great, just at 107km/h it already disappears, and below that speed you can hear it.
Keith Smith
Well-Known Member
Citation requested.
Lithium batteries do not like to be charged at a high rate. Actual Tesla studies (Not opinions or anecdotals) I've seen don't support this. You don't actually charge to 100% anyway is my understanding, it leaves a little room at the top. The battery studies I've seen seem to indicate degradation of cells seem to be more around discharging below 40-50% and rapid charging above 80%. You tube video analyzing tesla data showed very low degradation after 5 years for folks who generally charged to 100% every night, and never got really low. Deep cycling seemed to show the worst wear, but charge-discharge cycles, and mileage were not really discussed. The "big" deal appears to be that charging needs to slow down dramatically as you get above 80% or things get too hot and start destroying the cells. It's really sort of an art, since it doesn't want to charge when it's too cold either. The original Nissan Leaf's had a huge problem because they had no cooling during the charge cycle, which appears to be particularly important in LiON as you approach 100%. I see people bandy this around, but "The Musk" himself can be quoted saying "It shouldn't matter if you charge a Tesla battery to 100%" (paraphrased).
I think experience with lithium cell phone batteries would express similar experiences about charging to "100%" . In fact I can't think of any rechargeable battery that degrades when kept fully charged (overcharging is a different thing, you need to stop charging at some point). Age will eventually degrade - - Anything, and repeated deep cycling has shown it will significantly degrade. Based on various numbers bandied around about older Leaf's I'm feeling the "lifetime" of LiON cells is going to be between 6-10 years you are going to have a steep decline in discharge-charge to a usable value. We'll know quite a bit more in the next few years.
Ginginova
Well-Known Member
When taking high speed charging out of the equation, you can see in the specification sheet by LG that regarding cell life / degradation there are two main factors:
Also note, that those factors multiply. So being in a hot climate and having battery on 100% SOC most of the time will exacerbate battery life.
Note that Kona EV currently has NMC cell battery formulation, which has good preformance also during very cold winter temperatures, but hates high levels of SOC for prolonged time.
On other side newer Teslas and new Niro EV (and probably also new Kona EV next year) are transitioning to LFP cell battery formulation, which is cheaper and more tolerant to high SOC. But LFP on other hand has problems with very low temperatures.
I have similar observations regarding other types of batteries, for example old school flooded lead-acid solar batteries can last even 20 years at colder temperatures, for example mountain hut where battery temperature never goes above 20 deg C and is on yearly average around 10 deg C.
In the valley below where average temperature of battery is 20 deg C, it generally halves the life in years.
Similiar for UPS batteries when stored together with hot servers around 25 or more deg C. If batteries are stored in separate room with much lower temperatures, batteries tend to last longer.
- High temperatures (higher the temperature of cells, higher the degradation over time, generally avoid temperatures above 35 deg Celsius for longer periods of time)
- High state of charge (higher the SOC at the same temperature, higher the degradation over time, generally avoid SOC above 80% for longer periods of time )
Also note, that those factors multiply. So being in a hot climate and having battery on 100% SOC most of the time will exacerbate battery life.
Note that Kona EV currently has NMC cell battery formulation, which has good preformance also during very cold winter temperatures, but hates high levels of SOC for prolonged time.
On other side newer Teslas and new Niro EV (and probably also new Kona EV next year) are transitioning to LFP cell battery formulation, which is cheaper and more tolerant to high SOC. But LFP on other hand has problems with very low temperatures.
I have similar observations regarding other types of batteries, for example old school flooded lead-acid solar batteries can last even 20 years at colder temperatures, for example mountain hut where battery temperature never goes above 20 deg C and is on yearly average around 10 deg C.
In the valley below where average temperature of battery is 20 deg C, it generally halves the life in years.
Similiar for UPS batteries when stored together with hot servers around 25 or more deg C. If batteries are stored in separate room with much lower temperatures, batteries tend to last longer.
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Keith Smith
Well-Known Member
"you can see in the specification sheet by LG"
Nope, I can't see this. You've cited something without any reference to where to find it. What I'd like to see is some real world numbers that show the statements above ( 1 & 2 ) in fact prove out. The car companies are collecting much of this telemetry, it's going to be interesting
Some studies, for example:
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries
Testing claims would indicate my ev batteries would die in about a year if charged repeatedly to 100%. My guess is "100%" is more of target than a hard value. These studies also showed interesting capacity numbers as you lower the charge. I'd be willing to bet my 64KW battery pack does not charge every cell to 4.2v, though that would appear to be at an optimum capacity point on a charge it would only result int 300-500 cycles. It looks like 3.9v is a sweet spot coughing up 2500-4000 cycles but at only 65% of the juice. I think we can safely assume that our EV's are likely not charging at the top of that range, since they are clearly lasting more that 500 cycles. I'm guessing they tweak what 100% means to optimize battery life already. The question is by how much.
These studies made no mention of differences in SOC affecting degradation in LFP/NMC. They also work a "static" cell.
I'd love to see real world data analyzed with various chemistries.
Nope, I can't see this. You've cited something without any reference to where to find it. What I'd like to see is some real world numbers that show the statements above ( 1 & 2 ) in fact prove out. The car companies are collecting much of this telemetry, it's going to be interesting
Some studies, for example:
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries
Testing claims would indicate my ev batteries would die in about a year if charged repeatedly to 100%. My guess is "100%" is more of target than a hard value. These studies also showed interesting capacity numbers as you lower the charge. I'd be willing to bet my 64KW battery pack does not charge every cell to 4.2v, though that would appear to be at an optimum capacity point on a charge it would only result int 300-500 cycles. It looks like 3.9v is a sweet spot coughing up 2500-4000 cycles but at only 65% of the juice. I think we can safely assume that our EV's are likely not charging at the top of that range, since they are clearly lasting more that 500 cycles. I'm guessing they tweak what 100% means to optimize battery life already. The question is by how much.
These studies made no mention of differences in SOC affecting degradation in LFP/NMC. They also work a "static" cell.
I'd love to see real world data analyzed with various chemistries.
electriceddy
Moderator
This is the most recent study I can find comparing the 2 chemistries indicating better stability (LFP) compared to NMC but at an energy provision reduction. It also shows by reducing the maximum NMC SOC to ~ 90% achieves better coulombic efficiency, less capacity fade and higher energy density.
Actual electrochemical Journal here
First posted here, the Queen Battery attachment displays LG specifications of the E63 cells originally installed in our Kona EVs( hope the PDF file works for you, there are tidbits of valuable info throughout the thread if it doesn't)
datasheet also found here , bottom of page:
http://queenbattery.com.cn/our-products/677-lg-e63-376v-63ah-li-po-li-polymer-battery-cell.html
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Lars
Well-Known Member
I find it ironic that by now - 10 years? - of real experience with EVs there is not one "rule of thumb" describing the best way of charging EV batteries to maximize their life. I mean 'rule of thumb" because there are too many variables in life and usage pattern to set hard unquestionable rules. This kind of info could help those considering purchasing an EV.
For what its worth here is some real life experience. Before our Kona we drove a Mitsubishi iMiEV as a second car for 6 years. Because of the limited range of the car (100km) when we charged it we always charged it to 100%. Three to six times a week. After we sold the car with 40,000+km on the ODO the HV battery was 'just like new'. However, we must consider an other 'variable'. The car was garaged every winter between Xmas and approx the end of March - with a SOC of~40%.
From what we know this far charging an EV from 40-50% to 80% mostly at home (L2 charge) should make the battery outlast the rest of the car. (With some loss of range.)
For what its worth here is some real life experience. Before our Kona we drove a Mitsubishi iMiEV as a second car for 6 years. Because of the limited range of the car (100km) when we charged it we always charged it to 100%. Three to six times a week. After we sold the car with 40,000+km on the ODO the HV battery was 'just like new'. However, we must consider an other 'variable'. The car was garaged every winter between Xmas and approx the end of March - with a SOC of~40%.
From what we know this far charging an EV from 40-50% to 80% mostly at home (L2 charge) should make the battery outlast the rest of the car. (With some loss of range.)
Lars
Well-Known Member
I will ask my personal assistant (wife
) to study the matter. She has better hearing. The only noise that bothers me in this car is the road/tire noise.
Ginginova
Well-Known Member
Simple rule of thumb is to keep your EV battery SOC in the range between 20 and 80%, ideal being around 40% SOC for long term storage, like you did over winter.
You should also balance your battery cells once in a while by charging to 100% SOC. If you tend not go below SOC 40% then I would say once per two months is enough. When daily discharging below SOC 20% then once per week it is good to fully charge the battery to 100% and therefore do complete cell rebalancing.
You should also balance your battery cells once in a while by charging to 100% SOC. If you tend not go below SOC 40% then I would say once per two months is enough. When daily discharging below SOC 20% then once per week it is good to fully charge the battery to 100% and therefore do complete cell rebalancing.