An elephant in the room

[Raylo]

I have just started looking into EVs for perhaps my next vehicle... the technology is fantastic and improving rapidly... and was surprised and shocked to see what "fueling" costs are at commercial fast charge stations, like Electrify America. Doing a direct comparison of a 1000 mile trip in a Mustang Mach E vs. an equivalent ICE compact SUV like a Honda CRV, the Honda fuel cost 40% less. Why you ask? Because of the absurd high cost of these commercial chargers, that is ~4x what one would pay to charge up at home. So, while I'd love to have an EV and would save $ for my local driving, road trips will be absurdly expensive. I did the math for my test case and that EA fast charge price is the equivalent of $5.60/gallon gasoline. Not sure what the solution might be but for me, for now, getting an EV makes zero financial sense, especially considering the relatively high initial EV purchase prices.

Does anyone here have a sense where this is going and if and how building out the charging infrastructure might bring these costs down? Or is going to be like our situation for broadband services where we just let a few companies essentially have a monopoly and soak us for every penny?

 

[insightman]

The only thing that will bring the cost of fast charging down is competition. If EA is getting rich, then there will be competition. If building and operating fast-charging stations didn't cost very much, then many competitors would appear quickly. When the number of EVs using fast-charging stations goes up, and the cost of building and operating fast-charging stations goes down, there will be more competition and fast charging will get less expensive.

There's a wildcard here: the government. If the government pumps money into the EV fast-charging industry, the competition will heat up much more quickly. Care to bet on Build Back Better's chances of enactment? For right now, however, if you can't charge at home, an ICE vehicle will be cheaper to fuel. If you can do most of your charging at home, then the costs will more likely even out.

I sure don't miss going to gas stations--that time-savings and convenience is worth something to me, but I do 99% of my charging at home, so I'm saving money, too. Also, my MINI Cooper SE is the most fun of all the sports cars I've owned in 50 years.

 

[Raylo]

I'm not so sure about competition helping. There are plenty of examples where we allow what amounts to monopolies... or whatever the word is for de facto monopolies... such as for broadband service. Then we allow these companies to create pricing structures and mandatory service bundles that soak customers. IOW, competition in many business segments is largely a myth. These practices... and allowing these practices... are far more detrimental than any govt tax. My analogy for these chargers is that they are essentially electricity ATM machines, with super high fees. EA for instance charges $0.43/kWh, but I suspect they get the supply from the utilities at deep discounts to rates even lower than we pay at home, maybe $0.05/kWh. That's an 800% markup. Good job if you can get it. Perhaps there are some other factors that drive their costs higher and I'd love to know what they are and try to understand it better.

Yeah, driving an EV locally and charging at home is a BIG win. But for me making the highway use so dear is a huge disincentive to get one.

The only thing that will bring the cost of fast charging down is competition. If EA is getting rich, then there will be competition. If building and operating fast-charging stations didn't cost very much, then many competitors would appear quickly. When the number of EVs using fast-charging stations goes up, and the cost of building fast-charging stations goes down, there will be more competition and fast charging will get less expensive.

There's a wildcard here: the government. If the government pumps money into the EV fast-charging industry, the competition will heat up much more quickly. Care to bet on Build Back Better's chances of enactment? For right now, however, if you can't charge at home, an ICE vehicle will be cheaper to fuel. If you can do most of your charging at home, then the costs will more likely even out.

I sure don't miss going to gas stations--that time-savings and convenience is worth something to me, but I do 99% of my charging at home, so I'm saving money, too. Also, my MINI Cooper SE is the most fun of all the sports cars I've owned in 50 years.

 

[bwilson4web]

Yeah, driving an EV locally and charging at home is a BIG win. But for me making the highway use so dear is a huge disincentive to get one.

This is why I've calculated the cost per 100 miles for our Tesla Model 3 and BMW i3-REx:

• 2019 Tesla Model 3 Std Range
  • $2.75 / 100 miles when I pay residential rates
    • ~1/4-1/3 urban miles are free
  • $3.50 / 100 miles using SuperChargers
    • $3.00 / 100 miles staying overnight at a free L2 charging motel
• 2014 BMW i3-REx
  • $2.90 / 100 miles from home charging, residential rates
    • wife is not as astute about free charging
  • $24 / 120 miles Huntsville to Nashville EVgo and Electrify America
  • $6 / 120 miles gasoline Huntsville to Nashville, premium

GOOD LUCK!

Bob Wilson

 

[Raylo]

So Tesla gives you really low rates at the superchargers along with the purchase of the car? For life? I hadn't thought about hotels that might provide free L2. That would be cool. Unless you got there and they were all taken.

I can drive my Toyota Tacoma on a road trip for the same cost per mile as a Mustang Mach E using EA fast chargers. And for 40% less in a CRV or somesuch. Sad. I have a 1000 mile road trip coming up that I can do in two 5 minute gas stops in the Tacoma whereas in the Mach E it'd probably take 7 or more, each about 45 minutes. It might start to make sense if there was $ to be saved but your calcs show the same as mine. The commercial DC fast charging is literally highway robbery.

This is why I've calculated the cost per 100 miles for our Tesla Model 3 and BMW i3-REx:

• 2019 Tesla Model 3 Std Range
  • $2.75 / 100 miles when I pay residential rates
    • ~1/4-1/3 urban miles are free
  • $3.50 / 100 miles using SuperChargers
    • $3.00 / 100 miles staying overnight at a free L2 charging motel
• 2014 BMW i3-REx
  • $2.90 / 100 miles from home charging, residential rates
    • wife is not as astute about free charging
  • $24 / 120 miles Huntsville to Nashville EVgo and Electrify America
  • $6 / 120 miles gasoline Huntsville to Nashville, premium

GOOD LUCK!

Bob Wilson

 

[bwilson4web]

Good for you!

I drive something different and happy with the results. I’ve yet to be charger blocked as I can use: (1) Tesla distribution; (2) J1772, or; (3) NEMA 5-20 outside outlets on ends of motels. Like the fable of the stork and the fox, use what makes you happy.

Bob Wilson

 

[marshall]

For most folks the cost of public charging is a nonissue. They charge at home and will hardly ever use a public charging station. Your complaint is like comparing the price of a glass of soda at a Disneyland to the cost of buying at a grocery store.

I have to say that I enjoy driving my plugin on electricity is more enjoyable then when the gas engine is being used.

As far as the cost of EA charging, if you are going to do some long distance travel then paying the monthly $4 pass charge might make sense to get the lower rate. Also realize that there are costs to building, running and maintaining these chargers.

 

[Raylo]

No offense but you guys must misunderstand. I want an EV. And no one ever said they didn't make great sense as a daily driver. But if any journey outside the range of one's home L2 wall plug is priced like Disneyland EVs are never gonna be willingly accepted.

 

[marshall]

No offense but you guys must misunderstand. I want an EV. And no one ever said they didn't make great sense as a daily driver. But if any journey outside the range of one's home L2 wall plug is priced like Disneyland EVs are never gonna be willingly accepted.

But you are not going to Disneyland everyday. You charge at home for the most part.

As a daily driver, it makes a lot of sense for those folks who can charge from home or work.

Plus there a few free to charge L2 chargers and few low cost L2 chargers.

https://voltacharging.com/

 

[Raylo]

I am retired so don't have a daily commute and I probably head out to "Disneyland" more than most... and I have a major problem with having to pay 4x for fuel when I am on the road as opposed to home... because, why? It makes no sense. If gasoline was like that there would be a holy war. Sure the providers have some expense for the equipment but not enough to justify the extreme markup from what they pay... a markup I estimate to be ~ 800%. Once the machines are in place they mostly just print $ for the owners. If and when this is somehow managed and regulated to have charging provided at a somewhat equitable rate, like Tesla does, maybe it would make sense. Otherwise, not. I'd get a Tesla except those don't appeal to me. But that's a whole other discussion.

But you are not going to Disneyland everyday. You charge at home for the most part.

As a daily driver, it makes a lot of sense for those folks who can charge from home or work.

Plus there a few free to charge L2 chargers and few low cost L2 chargers.

https://voltacharging.com/

 

[dark night]

well, one reason i can see for higher charges on the road is your home charger costs $1,000 to buy and $500 to install, a charger on the highway costs $150,000+ to by and another $50,000 to install, so that's like 130 times as much and only charging 9 times more than your home cost for electricy.
in Australia i can charge at home from solar for $0.007 per kwh and from the mains a home $0.20 per kwh on the road costs $0.50 per kwh.
and i find lots of places we stop at offer free overnight charging as well, my total spend from all 3 has cost me over 13,000 km just $207 or a average of @0.10 per kwh.as i drive a Kona and get better than 7km for every kwh its just about $0.0015c per km traveled.

 

[Raylo]

EVSE units for home charging are cheaper here, at least in USD$. Maybe $500 to $600. And I can do the electrical installation myself so that is free except for the romex cable and receptacle. The cost of those commercial fast chargers is a piece of the puzzle I don't have but hard to believe that each one costs $150,000. If so that would explain a lot, especially if they need frequent repair or have short life cycles. That would need to change... and maybe it will as demand increases and more such devices are produced.

The other thing that I see as a problem here is that every provider has his own "network". IMO, this sort of infrastructure should be universal, transparent, and as inexpensive as possible. That is if we really want to leverage the true potential of EVs. And hopefully we will at least eventually have a universal plug and charge protocol that works seamlessly across these various networks to make it more convenient.

I don't know how your $0.50/kWh rate at commercial charging compares to your gasoline prices. Here in the US gasoline is relatively cheap so the math becomes more difficult. When you can drive a petrol Honda CRV or Mazda MX-5 for 40% less per mile than an equivalent EV like a Mustang Mach E (on the road at commercial chargers) there is little incentive to go EV... for that use case anyway. And the difference in the city isn't all that great, either. The petrol cars will cost more to operate but not drastically so. And their cheaper initial price easily offsets any extra fuel costs. Of course the net bottom line depends on how many miles and the mix between city and "disneyland".

In many ways you early adopters have it pretty good, especially for daily local driving. I am on a UK forum where they have far more EV penetration than we do here and there are many threads about crowded public charging points, drivers unplugging another car whilst the owner is in the coffee shop, men intimidating women to unplug and move on so they can charge, other charge point crime and "charge rage". A whole new set of issues. Hopefully we can avoid most of that.

well, one reason i can see for higher charges on the road is your home charger costs $1,000 to buy and $500 to install, a charger on the highway costs $150,000+ to by and another $50,000 to install, so that's like 130 times as much and only charging 9 times more than your home cost for electricy.
in Australia i can charge at home from solar for $0.007 per kwh and from the mains a home $0.20 per kwh on the road costs $0.50 per kwh.
and i find lots of places we stop at offer free overnight charging as well, my total spend from all 3 has cost me over 13,000 km just $207 or a average of @0.10 per kwh.as i drive a Kona and get better than 7km for every kwh its just about $0.0015c per km traveled.

 

[marshall]

I am retired so don't have a daily commute and I probably head out to "Disneyland" more than most... and I have a major problem with having to pay 4x for fuel when I am on the road as opposed to home... because, why? It makes no sense

I'm going to assume 12,000 miles a year with 20% of them charging away from home. That's 2,400 miles on the road and 9,600 miles charging at home.

The Mach-E is listed at 33kwh/100 miles at the government web site.

Here in Washington state I pay .11kWh for electricity and $3.57 per gallon of gas. We'll use the .41 kWh at EA.

So 2,400 miles/100miles is 24.
33kWh times 24 is 792 kWh. for the road trips
792 times .41 is $324.72 is the cost for the road trips.

Home charging cost
9,600 miles/100 is 96
33kWh times 96 is 3,168 kWh for home charging
3,168 times .11 is $348,48 cost for home charging.

I should add the $150 per year transportation tax.

Total cost of charging is $673.20 + $150 tax is $823.20

Honda CR-V AWD is listed at 3.4 gallons/100 miles.
12,000/100 is 120
120 times 3.4 gallons is 408 gallons
408 gallons times $3.57 per gallon is $1,456.56

 

[insightman]

drivers unplugging another car whilst the owner is in the coffee shop

When I lock my MINI Cooper SE, it locks the charging handle into the charging port. I'm surprised all EVs don't have this feature.

 

[Raylo]

Yeah, that's ~the same math I used and with your mix you come out ahead. With my mix it is closer to break even... or it would be if I had a CRV which I don't. My Tacoma uses quite a bit more. But even if you do save $ with your mix or break even with my mix the other question becomes: is the charging hassle and extra stop time on road trips worth it? I watched a youtube video of a 1000 mile road trip by an EV enthusiast in a Mach E and even editing out much of the actual wait time it looked painful.... cold weather, hanging out for hours (cumulatively) in WalMart parking lots and some other sketchy locations to get EA charges, etc. Part of the problem is that you can only really charge to 80% and even then depending on the next charging stop location you might not even be able to fully utilize that. Hence more stops. I like the idea an earlier poster mentioned about getting L2 while stopped at a hotel. That would help somewhat and save the wait time for those stops at least.

So I am on the fence for now since I don't need a vehicle and mine has been paid off for 11 years and it's a Toyota so the only operating costs are gas and oil changes. Kind of digging the Cadillac Lyriq but that will be another couple of years to get an AWD version. I am going to keep up with everything and sooner or later will take the plunge, if only for DD/local transport. I wish those solid state batteries would be ready sooner. That might be a game changer... if the infrastructure piece gets better.

I'm going to assume 12,000 miles a year with 20% of them charging away from home. That's 2,400 miles on the road and 9,600 miles charging at home.

The Mach-E is listed at 33kwh/100 miles at the government web site.

Here in Washington state I pay .11kWh for electricity and $3.57 per gallon of gas. We'll use the .41 kWh at EA.

So 2,400 miles/100miles is 24.
33kWh times 24 is 792 kWh. for the road trips
792 times .41 is $324.72 is the cost for the road trips.

Home charging cost
9,600 miles/100 is 96
33kWh times 96 is 3,168 kWh for home charging
3,168 times .11 is $348,48 cost for home charging.

Total cost of charging is $673.20

Honda CR-V AWD is listed at 3.4 gallons/100 miles.
12,000/100 is 120
120 times 3.4 gallons is 408 gallons
408 gallons times $3.57 per gallon is $1,456.56

 

[marshall]

Again I don't think the cost at an EA charging station is going to hold back the sale of EVs. If anything holds the sales back, it would be the cost to purchase the vehicle and the reliability of the public charging stations.

 

[Raylo]

I agree... for most people... simply because they will neither do nor understand these calculations. And it seems that even many who do understand come around to being OK with getting soaked at the commercial chargers as long as they come out ahead overall. As PT Barnum said... there's a sucker born every minute.

Again I don't think the cost at an EA charging station is going to hold back the sale of EVs. If anything holds the sales back, it would be the cost to purchase the vehicle and the reliability of the public charging stations.

 

[marshall]

So I am on the fence for now since I don't need a vehicle and mine has been paid off for 11 years and it's a Toyota so the only operating costs are gas and oil changes. Kind of digging the Cadillac Lyriq but that will be another couple of years to get an AWD version. I am going to keep up with everything and sooner or later will take the plunge, if only for DD/local transport. I wish those solid state batteries would be ready sooner. That might be a game changer... if the infrastructure piece gets better.

Well if the technology in the new car can help prevent one from getting into an accident, that may be worth the cost of a new vehicle right there.

Note, for us old folks, getting into an accident is greater than any other age group outside of teenagers. On top of that, our bodies can't take the blows that a twenty year old can take, so there is a greater chance of serious bodily injury.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[Jim Matthews]

No offense but you guys must misunderstand. I want an EV. And no one ever said they didn't make great sense as a daily driver. But if any journey outside the range of one's home L2 wall plug is priced like Disneyland EVs are never gonna be willingly accepted.

This has been done to death, already.
If you drive more than 200 miles on any given day, you're a rarity.

The perception of what buyers want in a car has been driven by legacy makers attempting to undermine the obvious benefits (including cheap daily operations) of electric vehicles.

I did 23,000 miles last year - all within 60 miles of home.

 

[Jim Matthews]

Again I don't think the cost at an EA charging station is going to hold back the sale of EVs. If anything holds the sales back, it would be the cost to purchase the vehicle and the reliability of the public charging stations.

The roadblock to EV adoption is legacy car dealers "steering" customers to ICE vehicles and their valuable service revenues.