So it looks like we are getting a 2nd battery replacement... Wait time is apparently better now with "only a month or 2" (previous change with recall in 2021, we waited over 6 months) ... Sadly, I will be selling the Kona after the battery swap as I'm not risking a 3rd battery problem when no longer on warranty.
2021 - 2022 KONA Electric - Check Electric Vehicle System Error
- Thread starter NS KONA Elec
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2022 Kona 28,600 miles. Had the BMS update done in November. Got the Check Electric System warning this morning. Do NOT drive vehicle - get service immediately. Now at the dealership, long wait for diagnostics…
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Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
Haidagwaiipilot
New Member
2021 Kona Preferred with 42,000k. Got the "check electrical system" warning about 6 weeks ago. Took it into the dealer and after having it all day they said they needed more information and would contact the factory on how to proceed. After pushing a bit I have an appointment on November 8th, when they will do more investigations. The upside is I haven't noticed any other issues. The car seems to operate the same and takes a charge to 80% no problem. I haven't tried to charge to 100%. I only do that when I'm about to do a long trip. I will keep this forum posted. I'm wondering if I could get more useful information if I had a good scanner. What are people using?
Haidagwaiipilot
New Member
Update
I had to change the appointment to the 15th, but found out they need to remove the entire dash. We have noticed a slight ticking behind the dash the last few months but it quits after a few minutes. Something behind the dash needs to be replaced, stay tuned!
I had to change the appointment to the 15th, but found out they need to remove the entire dash. We have noticed a slight ticking behind the dash the last few months but it quits after a few minutes. Something behind the dash needs to be replaced, stay tuned!
KiwiME
Well-Known Member
Perhaps they have to replace the PTC cabin heater? The ticking could certainly be that.
If you use a common bluetooth dongle and phone app like Car Scanner you can check the isolation resistance. Any faulty high-voltage component could cause this check to fail but it doesn't prevent the car from being drivable.
It'll be interesting to hear what the actual problem is.
If you use a common bluetooth dongle and phone app like Car Scanner you can check the isolation resistance. Any faulty high-voltage component could cause this check to fail but it doesn't prevent the car from being drivable.
It'll be interesting to hear what the actual problem is.
Haidagwaiipilot
New Member
Thanks for the help.
Update #2
I tried to charge to 100% last night as we have timed rates here in B.C. and I have the charging timer set to 11:00 pm to 7:00 am, to get the discounted rate. However, the BMS is only allowing an 80% charge. I normally would charge only to 80% but I have to travel tomorrow. There's 411 k in the battery so I'm good, and I'm assuming the issue will be resolved when the work gets done on the 15th.
Update #2
I tried to charge to 100% last night as we have timed rates here in B.C. and I have the charging timer set to 11:00 pm to 7:00 am, to get the discounted rate. However, the BMS is only allowing an 80% charge. I normally would charge only to 80% but I have to travel tomorrow. There's 411 k in the battery so I'm good, and I'm assuming the issue will be resolved when the work gets done on the 15th.
Haidagwaiipilot
New Member
They had the car from 08:00 to 16:30 on Friday and it seems to be fine now. I charged it to 100% just to check it. I did not get the paperwork yet so I don't know what they did, but was promised it soon. I will report when I know more.
2021 Ultimate with ~83,000 km. December 15 got the "check electrical system" warning and it stranded my wife on the side of the highway (on the one day of the year she didn't take her phone with her ....). Much later that night, it was towed to the Nanaimo BC dealership through Hyundai Roadside Assistance. This is our only vehicle and the Assistance person assured me the dealership would either give us a courtesy car or arrange a rental at no cost to us. Next day the dealership said they had no courtesy cars in and we only got a rental if we had bought the extended warranty coverage. They looked at the car the next morning and said it needed further investigation and since it was turning into a longer episode, they would give us a courtesy car and they had one for us now.
Turns out the courtesy car is a brand new 2024 Ionic 5 still with the price sticker on the window, so I'm not overly concerned that they've had our car almost 2 weeks and we haven't heard anything.
My quick googling suggests the problem may be:
- 12 volt battery. Pretty sure they eliminated that in their brief look at it, and it was new 6 months ago anyway
- somewhere in the communication between traction battery and 12 volt
- fried traction battery
I'm kinda hoping it's the traction battery and we get it replaced under warranty. Sort of erases 3 years and 83,000 km of use. But I've already had the motor and GRU replacement done under warranty and now this, so I'm getting a bit concerned about what could happen next. We love the car, but I'm seriously pondering trading it in for something else.
I'll update when I learn more.
Turns out the courtesy car is a brand new 2024 Ionic 5 still with the price sticker on the window, so I'm not overly concerned that they've had our car almost 2 weeks and we haven't heard anything.
My quick googling suggests the problem may be:
- 12 volt battery. Pretty sure they eliminated that in their brief look at it, and it was new 6 months ago anyway
- somewhere in the communication between traction battery and 12 volt
- fried traction battery
I'm kinda hoping it's the traction battery and we get it replaced under warranty. Sort of erases 3 years and 83,000 km of use. But I've already had the motor and GRU replacement done under warranty and now this, so I'm getting a bit concerned about what could happen next. We love the car, but I'm seriously pondering trading it in for something else.
I'll update when I learn more.
KiwiME
Well-Known Member
I don't think that the occurrence of one problem causes that, or other problems to happen more often on one particular example. All those are common issues, along with the charge door lock and plug latch.
"Check electrical system" errors are caused by (a) loss of battery electrical isolation (e.g. a PTC heater or HVAC compressor internal short to chassis ground), (b) a sudden change of, or abnormal cell-group voltage, or (c) high temperature.
If the BMS update available since Oct '23 hasn't been applied, that may fix it, as it has for a number of others recently. But because it wouldn't drive at all with the error showing it sounds like something relatively serious (like "b") and it's very possible that you'll get your wish of a new pack.
"Check electrical system" errors are caused by (a) loss of battery electrical isolation (e.g. a PTC heater or HVAC compressor internal short to chassis ground), (b) a sudden change of, or abnormal cell-group voltage, or (c) high temperature.
If the BMS update available since Oct '23 hasn't been applied, that may fix it, as it has for a number of others recently. But because it wouldn't drive at all with the error showing it sounds like something relatively serious (like "b") and it's very possible that you'll get your wish of a new pack.
So, 5 weeks at the shop now. Keeping in mind that I'm not all that up on ev terminology or technology, my understanding of what they've told me so far is this.
They took the big battery out to explore stuff inside it. I'm told they were more likely to just replace the whole battery in the past, but they investigate more now. Their first guess was the PRA (Power Relay Assembly), but replacing it didn't fix things. Then they found a "blown major fuse" inside the battery which the Hyundai techs believe was caused by the "battery heater". So they are ordering a fuse and heater and I should hear this week.
Likely due to my lack of knowledge, I'm a bit confused about the "battery heater". I'm in Canada, so I've got a heat pump but I don't think that's what they are referring to. And I have an option to turn on battery preconditioning, but have never done so. So I guess there's some other form of "battery heater"?
To be continued ....
They took the big battery out to explore stuff inside it. I'm told they were more likely to just replace the whole battery in the past, but they investigate more now. Their first guess was the PRA (Power Relay Assembly), but replacing it didn't fix things. Then they found a "blown major fuse" inside the battery which the Hyundai techs believe was caused by the "battery heater". So they are ordering a fuse and heater and I should hear this week.
Likely due to my lack of knowledge, I'm a bit confused about the "battery heater". I'm in Canada, so I've got a heat pump but I don't think that's what they are referring to. And I have an option to turn on battery preconditioning, but have never done so. So I guess there's some other form of "battery heater"?
To be continued ....
KiwiME
Well-Known Member
The battery heater is located outside the pack and just in front of it. In the gen-1 Kona all examples equipped with the heat pump reportedly also have the (otherwise-unrelated) battery heater. Given the stories of woe I'm seeing in N. America at the moment due to the cold, be glad you have that feature!
An internal short in the heater will cause a loss of isolation and it seems in this case a blown main fuse, noting that oddly there is no dedicated small fuse for the battery heater unlike all the other HV accessories. It's not the first time I've heard of a PTC heater failure but it's only the second.
There is no battery preconditioning feature on the gen-1, at least in the conventional context. At best it kicks in automatically when charging commences and will warm the battery much faster than it would otherwise due to resistive losses.
I'm impressed that the dealer has opened up the battery pack. This is where technical repairs have to be to improve sustainability ongoing.
An internal short in the heater will cause a loss of isolation and it seems in this case a blown main fuse, noting that oddly there is no dedicated small fuse for the battery heater unlike all the other HV accessories. It's not the first time I've heard of a PTC heater failure but it's only the second.
There is no battery preconditioning feature on the gen-1, at least in the conventional context. At best it kicks in automatically when charging commences and will warm the battery much faster than it would otherwise due to resistive losses.
I'm impressed that the dealer has opened up the battery pack. This is where technical repairs have to be to improve sustainability ongoing.
Should have a look at this video ~ 11:59 of this video:
Also could be caused by LC Blue series 1 coolant blockage (jelled):
Thanks to @KiwiME for those video/pictures previously posted in earlier thread.
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Thanks guys. I'm understanding the heater thing a bit better now. From other reading, my (limited) understanding is that this battery heater only comes on in very low temperatures and when DC charging or a low state of charge - and you can change the temperature parameters a bit by turning on "winter mode". Since I've never turned on winter mode, and the car was being driven when this happened, and it wasn't particularly cold out at the time (~5 C), I just wonder what would make it short out and/or a fuse blow? Maybe there's always some current running through it for a temperature sensor or something?
And unrelated, but out of curiosity and to demonstrate my lack of knowledge, does this heater also supply the cabin heat in vehicles without the heat pump? And maybe supplementary heat in ones with the heat pump?
And unrelated, but out of curiosity and to demonstrate my lack of knowledge, does this heater also supply the cabin heat in vehicles without the heat pump? And maybe supplementary heat in ones with the heat pump?
KiwiME
Well-Known Member
The battery heater is actually more commonly used while charging depending on the rate and temperature. That function does not require Winter Mode to be on.
The video EE posted shows a failure mode that could have caused the issues you've seen. Without parts in hand we don't really know how or if your's failed.
"PTC" simply refers to the type of resistive element and there is also a PTC-type resistive cabin heater that heats air directly in all Konas, with or without a heat pump. I find it kicks-in for a short time when the Heat is pressed under about 10°C and makes a burnt dust smell. That load can be seen on the Electricity Usage screen as a ~3kW load under the Climate heading.
The video EE posted shows a failure mode that could have caused the issues you've seen. Without parts in hand we don't really know how or if your's failed.
"PTC" simply refers to the type of resistive element and there is also a PTC-type resistive cabin heater that heats air directly in all Konas, with or without a heat pump. I find it kicks-in for a short time when the Heat is pressed under about 10°C and makes a burnt dust smell. That load can be seen on the Electricity Usage screen as a ~3kW load under the Climate heading.
The saga continues ... but kudos to the dealer for keeping me advised, and I do understand that they need to troubleshoot stuff in some sort of sequence.
I've been told they've put the new fuse into the battery and the vehicle will now light up into "ready mode". But there are some trouble codes that make them believe the EPCU (electronic power control unit - sits on top of the motor) is overdrawing/shorting which caused the fuse to blow. New EPCU ordered for next week ....
I've been told they've put the new fuse into the battery and the vehicle will now light up into "ready mode". But there are some trouble codes that make them believe the EPCU (electronic power control unit - sits on top of the motor) is overdrawing/shorting which caused the fuse to blow. New EPCU ordered for next week ....
Ferenc Jakab
Active Member
if they still had speedo cables I'd say it was that. Guess I'd be wrong.
Got the car back yesterday. Turns out it was the EPCU which blew the fuse, which killed the car. But it's all fixed now under warranty and I'm happy to have the car back.
Sidenote: dead traction battery and sitting for a month killed the 12 volt battery and that wouldn't have been covered under the warranty. The explanation I got on that is that there wouldn't be 100% proof that the failure of the big battery killed the little one and so no warranty coverage. But fortunately (?) I had to replace the 12 volt battery about 6 months ago due to it being dead when I picked up the car from the dealer for a different issue, and so the warranty on that battery gave me a new one!
Sidenote: dead traction battery and sitting for a month killed the 12 volt battery and that wouldn't have been covered under the warranty. The explanation I got on that is that there wouldn't be 100% proof that the failure of the big battery killed the little one and so no warranty coverage. But fortunately (?) I had to replace the 12 volt battery about 6 months ago due to it being dead when I picked up the car from the dealer for a different issue, and so the warranty on that battery gave me a new one!
Great to hear all worked out...Thanks for the follow up
KiwiME
Well-Known Member
That's certainly a rare failure and the EPCU is a major part of the car's electrical system. It's interesting that the dealer killed a 12V battery on both repair visits and then doesn't put 2 and 2 together. All they had to do was to disconnect it.
As a note there was a recall on the 2020 Kia Niro EV regarding the EPCU. The defect described would have caused the loss of isolation found. I believe this part is identical to that used in the Kona, at most differing only by firmware.
As a note there was a recall on the 2020 Kia Niro EV regarding the EPCU. The defect described would have caused the loss of isolation found. I believe this part is identical to that used in the Kona, at most differing only by firmware.