12V battery

[KiwiME]

Well, noting that all earlier Kona EVs outside N. America are missing BlueLink and presumably the cellular hardware. Mine has no connectivity except Bluetooth audio.

I attribute the original problem to a "hung" Bluelink command as this was the only thing I did differently than the norm a couple of days previous to the occurrence.

I was under the impression that you didn't have a smart phone? I have to wonder if the app running in the background is the issue?

 

[electriceddy]

Well, noting that all earlier Kona EVs outside N. America are missing BlueLink and presumably the cellular hardware. Mine has no connectivity except Bluetooth audio.

I was under the impression that you didn't have a smart phone? I have to wonder if the app running in the background is the issue?

You are correct , I had sent a command to reset the service schedule using my desktop PC. 2 days later my battery was dead (car sat parked and not running between the time I sent command and when I went to use it 2 days later).

 

[KiwiME]

Hmm, have to wonder if using an Android emulator adds further unknowns. It does seem that the overall issue is that the car's management of the aux battery has difficulty compensating for unexpected drains while parked. I've seen no evidence that it can wake up before the 24h parked-up period has elapsed but in your case the unexpected aux charge event may have been the following day, due to it determining an additional charge was needed when left to rest after the prior event.

As an experiment I might leave the key near the car for a day and see what that does to the voltage loss profile.

 

[mikeselectricstuff]

As an experiment I might leave the key near the car for a day and see what that does to the voltage loss profile.

Unless you have the "welcome mirrors" option enabled ( which adds about 20mA to the 12v sleep-mode draw) , it makes no difference as it only scans for the key when a door button is pressed.

 

[Toolworker]

In case it's of interest, I report that my 12v battery has been slowly discharging for 5 days now without Aux Battery Saver+ running. See graph below.

ABS+ had been running for 20 minutes every 24 hours and 20 minutes until the car was driven on 3-31. About 16 hours later it looks like ABS+ ran briefly, followed by 5 hours of discharge that reminds me of the pattern that drained my 12v battery several times previously, although not as steep. (One difference is that the car is now plugged into the vehicle's 12A EVSE cord connected to 240v, instead of the previous 40A Aerovironment EVSE, because I am trying to determine whether the EVSE was a factor in draining the battery.)

Anyway, ABS+ hasn't run since and the battery is down below 12.4v.

I don't understand how any of this is supposed to work, but submit it in case someone else finds it of interest.

 

[electriceddy]

In case it's of interest, I report that my 12v battery has been slowly discharging for 5 days now without Aux Battery Saver+ running. See graph below.

ABS+ had been running for 20 minutes every 24 hours and 20 minutes until the car was driven on 3-31. About 16 hours later it looks like ABS+ ran briefly, followed by 5 hours of discharge that reminds me of the pattern that drained my 12v battery several times previously, although not as steep. (One difference is that the car is now plugged into the vehicle's 12A EVSE cord connected to 240v, instead of the previous 40A Aerovironment EVSE, because I am trying to determine whether the EVSE was a factor in draining the battery.)

Anyway, ABS+ hasn't run since and the battery is down below 12.4v.

I don't understand how any of this is supposed to work, but submit it in case someone else finds it of interest.

View attachment 8033

Flat line is a good line, looks like you may have nailed it with the EVSE. Thanks for the screen displays and keep monitoring. Happy to hear the OEM EVSE has been working @ 240V.

 

[KiwiME]

Anyway, ABS+ hasn't run since and the battery is down below 12.4v.

I can't read the note on the 31st but something appears to be wrong. After any substantial drive the ABS event should re-sync with the start (+20 min) of that drive or if the drive was short it should not disturb the existing ABS schedule.

Having an EVSE plugged in should either result in two scenarios: (a) if the charge limiter allows main battery charging at an optional start time, the aux battery will get charged during the first 20 min*, or (b) if the charge limiter does not allow main battery charging at an optional start time, the existing ABS scheduled should carry on. Certainly cancelling all aux battery charging seems to be a problem.

Would suggest unplugging the EVSE and see if the schedule returns.

* I'll just add that if aux charging occurs due to a main battery charge starting, I'm unsure if the previous ABS schedule is left alone for the next day or is re-adjusted to sync to that event. Hope that's clear...

I may have to try this scenario on my Kona.

 

[Toolworker]

Flat line is a good line, looks like you may have nailed it with the EVSE. Thanks for the screen displays and keep monitoring. Happy to hear the OEM EVSE has been working @ 240V.

I don't understand. Why does it run ABS+ when the voltage is high but not when it's low?

The previous time I drove it was 3/25. Since then it's been on the OEM EVSE. On 3/25 the battery was a bit above 13v. ABS+ ran every day until 3/31, when it was about 12.6v. Then ABS+ stopped running after that short session on 4/1. Now it's down below 12.4v and still no ABS+.

I can't say yet that it was the EVSE. The battery died the first time on 2/17, then again 3/14. Then on 3/17 I caught it dying and captured the graph and video. All three times on the AeroVironment. It hasn't died since then - 4 days on the OEM EVSE, 4 on the AeroVironment, and 12 now on the OEM.

 

[electriceddy]

I suspect (a) but it requires more monitoring to provide the true answer.

 

[Toolworker]

I can't read the note on the 31st but something appears to be wrong. After any substantial drive the ABS event should re-sync with the start (+20 min) of that drive or if the drive was short it should not disturb the existing ABS schedule.

Having an EVSE plugged in should either result in two scenarios: (a) if the charge limiter allows main battery charging at an optional start time, the aux battery will get charged during the first 20 min*, or (b) if the charge limiter does not allow main battery charging at an optional start time, the existing ABS scheduled should carry on. Certainly cancelling all aux battery charging seems to be a problem.

Would suggest unplugging the EVSE and see if the schedule returns.

* I'll just add that if aux charging occurs due to a main battery charge starting, I'm unsure if the previous ABS schedule is left alone for the next day or is re-adjusted to sync to that event. Hope that's clear...

I may have to try this scenario on my Kona.

The note on the 31st says the car was driven. It was about 1/4 mile, then an hour later 1/4 mile back. Then the ABS event ran 16 hours later, but only once. So it didn't sync to the drive or keep the previous schedule.

The graphs show two events where the car used 12v on 4/1, at 14:00 and 15:00, then four on 4/2 including one at 14:00, then one every day since at 14:00. Maybe ABS is trying to run but can't muster the motivation.

Guess I should go and eyeball the car at 14:00 tomorrow.

 

[KiwiME]

The note on the 31st says the car was driven. It was about 1/4 mile, then an hour later 1/4 mile back. Then the ABS event ran 16 hours later, but only once. So it didn't sync to the drive or keep the previous schedule.

The graphs show two events where the car used 12v on 4/1, at 14:00 and 15:00, then four on 4/2 including one at 14:00, then one every day since at 14:00. Maybe ABS is trying to run but can't muster the motivation.

The drives on the 31st should not have changed the ABS event schedule because they are too short. The aux charge event on the 1st before the normal scheduled time doesn't look right - it's far too short aside from being at the wrong time. Further aux charge attempts appear to follow the correct schedule but don't start for some reason.
I don't know how battery voltage affects any of this but mine sags over a day to 12.78 and after charge event is left at about 13.1. But it's hard to believe that 12.4 is too low to support the start of ABS charging, but clearly it's trying to start and fails.

Something is wrong but I don't know what. Having sighted the issue the question is how to corner it without scaring it off!
I think what I would do, assuming the car is stationary for days, is to try one thing at a time to see what makes the schedule return.
a) if you have a charger, charge the aux battery up externally (still connected to the car) and outside the schedule. That sorts the voltage question.
b) reset the media center and return to all previous settings pertaining to charging.
c) leave the EVSE disconnected.
d) remove and check the cleanliness of both battery terminals and the sensor thing on the negative.

 

[Toolworker]

Guess I should go and eyeball the car at 14:00 tomorrow.

That was productive. Here's what happened at 13:56 (ignore the second spike down for the moment):



But if I hadn't been there, I wouldn't have seen what really happened:



The graphing function failed to capture the spike. And to shed a little more light (as in indicator lights):



Note that the indicator light in the logo goes on toward the end.

Now this was with the OEM EVSE cord. I won't repeat the post of the other incident, but here's the graph and video from when the AeroVironment EVSE tried to drain the battery. I wonder whether this is the same problem, just manifesting differently because of different responses from the two EVSEs.

I plugged into the AeroVironment (that's the second spike in the first graph), and set a reminder to go see what happens at 13:56 tomorrow.

 

[KiwiME]

Probably unrelated but I'm wondering why the charge port lights up when the scheduled ABS is about to start? The manual says white means "Charging door open (charging standby)". It must be a normal thing and I can try this myself later by plugging in, because I know my car will execute an ABS in 4 hours.

So, other than trying the wall mount EVSE tomorrow I'm assuming the following option is with no EVSE attached.

The ABS "on" time was less than 100ms so that has yet to be explained.

 

[Toolworker]

Probably unrelated but I'm wondering why the charge port lights up when the scheduled ABS is about to start? The manual says white means "Charging door open (charging standby)".

In the 5 minute graph, there's that 12v drop as the car wakes up, looks around and prepares to do ABS. I'd guess the port lights as a result of the car waking up. It's exactly 30 seconds from the port light to the ABS indicator light.

So, other than trying the wall mount EVSE tomorrow I'm assuming the following option is with no EVSE attached

I want to find out why the car keeps killing my 12v battery. So I don't want to shake it out of this pattern and resume normal ABS. I know the discharge graph with the AeroVironment EVSE is an instance of the problem, so ideally I'll see that happen tomorrow. That graph doesn't have an ABS spike at the beginning - but neither does today's graph; it's only visible on the app's home screen.

Getting a normal ABS with no EVSE won't prove anything, although it would further suggest that the problem is an interaction between ABS and the EVSE.

 

[KiwiME]

On schedule it lit the charge port in white for the 30 sec then the port turned yellow and the H light came on. After some 20 min the H light went out and the port light turned white for a few seconds then extinguished.

 

[Toolworker]

I want to find out why the car keeps killing my 12v battery. So I don't want to shake it out of this pattern and resume normal ABS. I know the discharge graph with the AeroVironment EVSE is an instance of the problem, so ideally I'll see that happen tomorrow.

Another piece of luck. The AeroVironment EVSE discharge loop repeated this morning, and I caught it before the 12v battery died and wiped the battery monitor memory.




At 05:45 this morning I stopped the discharge loop and unplugged the car from all EVSEs. Let's see if it now runs ABS normally.

 

[KiwiME]

So, as far as ABS function goes the common attribute when an EVSE is plugged-in (but not charging) is that the car chassis is "grounded" to whatever ground is provided by the AC supply.
The behaviour of the AeroVironment EVSE looks like it is repeating the ground effectiveness test, making the car cycle as the CP signal changes state.

I have no idea if or why the ABS would care about grounding, or if the AeroVironment is behaving correctly ... but there are common elements emerging as we await the results of this next EVSE-free scenario.

As a side note, I tested my own portable EVSE with the ground removed and it did fail the ground test. I don't know how it knows but I've seen mentioned that it might use a high-frequency signal to characterise the impedance of that wire. It should not be assuming that the N wire is grounded at the panel (which it happens to be in my case) and use that as a potential reference.

 

[Toolworker]

I have no idea if or why the ABS would care about grounding, or if the AeroVironment is behaving correctly ... but there are common elements emerging as we await the results of this next EVSE-free scenario.

Since you mention ground, I did a little checking. The EVSE is on its own subpanel, with 120v and 240v outlets. Ground to the 120v neutral measures 1 mv. to 4 mv. By comparison, on the garage outlets, which are on the main panel, ground to neutral measures about 250 mv. So I wonder if the subpanel's ground is actually on the neutral.

However, the power feed to the premises is at the garage, so wiring to the subpanel is a foot or two long. The main panel is about 75' away, and, so there's about 150' of wiring from the power feed to the garage outlets. Might that account for the difference between garage outlet ground and neutral?

I don't really understand this - I just measure voltages.

Here's the latest from 13:56 this afternoon:


Despite the discharge and EVSE unplug this morning, ABS again tried to run at 13:55, and this time, with no EVSE plugged, it succeeded. The charge port and logo lit up yellow.

Around 14:05, I plugged in the OEM EVSE. The port lit green and ABS continued.

At 14:09, the HV battery finished charging (to 80%), the charge port lit white and ABS stopped.

For tomorrow, I have plugged the OEM EVSE into the 120v circuit, which is on the same subpanel as 240v. If that triggers failure, I will plug it into the 120v circuit on the main panel. If the issue is a bad grounding on the subpanel, it will fail tomorrow but succeed on the main panel.

 

[Toolworker]

Oh, maybe more to the point, the voltage between the garage 120v circuit ground and the EV subpanel's 240v circuit ground is about 25 mv. And I connect the OEM EVSE to 240v with this adapter (which I have relabeled "240v").

 

[KiwiME]

Ok, so you're using a "120 VAC" portable EVSE on 240V. As best I understand that's workable because these EVSEs are pretty much designed for worldwide voltages and the car itself doesn't care. I don't think that's an issue regarding this problem.
I used to own a home in San Diego but I can't remember much about the wiring. I'm pretty sure from the street you get L1, L2 and N. The ground to the main panel comes from a nearby ground rod or a steel cold water pipe and that connects also to N at that panel. Any subpanels take whatever they need from the main panel, L1, L2, G and perhaps N if 120V circuits are supported. There must be some electricians on the forum who can answer that better.

Where is the ground rod servicing the subpanel? If you're comfortable with removing live panel covers (or turn off the subpanel from the main panel), it would pay to check and tighten the connections from the ground rod all the way to the wall EVSE.

But it looks like the ABS succeeded with no EVSE connected but also was not disturbed by connecting the portable unit during the event.