Repair issues and fixes

[alphayash]

No reply to this....?

no reply..?

 

[insightman]

no reply..?

FYI, if you are wondering what the question is, @alphayash is replying to the referenced post from way back on September 28, 2022 concerning the "Charge door open" message.

 

[r4dk0]

Adding oil change pictures upto 650km on the new, 3rd gearbox:

1st change after 350km:

After 350km settled:

2nd change after 650km (fresh, didn't settle yet):

Installed magnet didn't pickup anything on 1st oil change, seems to be mostly ALU particles:

The plan is to do a 3rd oil change after cca 1500km total and 4th based on the results of the 3rd flush.

 

[C02less]

on the new, 3rd gearbox

THIRD gearbox? I feel sorry for you, buddy. How many miles did it take to blow up the first two?

 

[KiwiME]

A 2019 owner here in NZ is also on the third gear reducer and doing early oil changes with similar results. This, IMO, is really the best way to improve the chances of achieving a long life.

But, overall I'll stress that motor or gear reducer problems have not been common here, and I have no idea why that is.

Meanwhile, my own 2019 has only just hit 30,000 km. I've done six oil changes since 19,000 and for that last one in May I experimentally used the next grade thicker oil, 75W-80. It's noticeably quieter on smooth roads around 40-60 km/h. The mild local climate (>5°C) and low highway speeds (<100 km/h) allow me this option without concern as the 70W viscosity is dictated by the cold temperature range and 160 km/h top speed.

 

[zalex007]

First reduction gear oil change.
UK, 36,400 miles ~= 58500 km
2020 car.

Many thanks goes to Kiwi, as well as to videos of "Random Technicall Stuff - RTS" and "Rob's page for Kona EV, DIY, and more" for all the information provided.
In my case the socket size was 24mm, I did buy 23mm socket mentioned by others just in case as I rented a car ramp and didn't want not to be able to do the job.
I only removed one underside engine cover, unlike "Rob's page" suggested. My under cover was the same as Robs but I found it easy to undo both drain plugs.

In the UK I've used different oil and plugs to the ones mentioned:

• Oil RAVENOL MTF-4 70W Transmission Fluid which has these specs: API GL-4+, Hyundai/Kia 04300-2N100 WDGO-1, Hyundai/Kia 04300-KX1B0. 2x1L, £43 delivered
• Plug Gold Plug AP05S Magnetic Oil Drain Sump Plug AP-05S - M18 x 1.5mm Thread, which is actually 1" socket but 26 mm worked well here. £44 delivered
• 200ml syringe with hose. Would never do it without it, it will be very hard. £6.60 delivered.

Oil was very dark as others have mentioned.


Oil was sent to analysis.
The results are

Would appreciate if someone can comment on these results with some insights.

All in all the job took about 1.5 hours, on a rented car lift.

 

[electriceddy]

First reduction gear oil change.
UK, 36,400 miles ~= 58500 km
2020 car.

Many thanks goes to Kiwi, as well as to videos of "Random Technicall Stuff - RTS" and "Rob's page for Kona EV, DIY, and more" for all the information provided.
In my case the socket size was 24mm, I did buy 23mm socket mentioned by others just in case as I rented a car ramp and didn't want not to be able to do the job.
I only removed one underside engine cover, unlike "Rob's page" suggested. My under cover was the same as Robs but I found it easy to undo both drain plugs.

In the UK I've used different oil and plugs to the ones mentioned:

• Oil RAVENOL MTF-4 70W Transmission Fluid which has these specs: API GL-4+, Hyundai/Kia 04300-2N100 WDGO-1, Hyundai/Kia 04300-KX1B0. 2x1L, £43 delivered
• Plug Gold Plug AP05S Magnetic Oil Drain Sump Plug AP-05S - M18 x 1.5mm Thread, which is actually 1" socket but 26 mm worked well here. £44 delivered
• 200ml syringe with hose. Would never do it without it, it will be very hard. £6.60 delivered.

View attachment 23215

Oil was very dark as others have mentioned.
View attachment 23216

Oil was sent to analysis.
The results are
View attachment 23217
Would appreciate if someone can comment on these results with some insights.

All in all the job took about 1.5 hours, on a rented car lift.

Good job, some pretty robust looking plugs.
I am sure @KiwiME will respond with technical details and possibly update your analysis to his graph.

 

[KiwiME]

First reduction gear oil change.
...
Would appreciate if someone can comment on these results with some insights.

Thanks for including all the details as that makes it easier for me. I've added your UOA results for iron and aluminium to the graphs I maintain of first-time changes without magnets at 58,500 km. I've posted those and two others individually for clarity as the resolution is reduced on this forum.
You can see that the iron value (266) is above the trendline but not much out of line with several others. Aluminium (90) is about average, noting that the data is more widely scattered than iron.

Results from others after installing a magnetic plug indicate that it helps to significantly reduce the iron contamination ongoing, as seen in the third graph. The fourth graph is aluminium for 2nd+ changes just to complete the set.

The Ravenol oil is top quality and is on my recommended list. I suspect that this is the supplier of Hyundai/Kia's OEM oil.
The Gold Plug magnetic plug looks like a good choice and has a wider flange than the Votex, which means that the ideal torque level could be slightly higher than the 22 lb-ft we generally use on the latter plug, but that also depends on the washer hardness.

I've only had to remove the rear undertray once, and that was because I experimentally removed the filler plug before draining the oil. The problem is that with the front of the car raised on ramps oil spills out of that directly into the rear tray. I didn't want the dealer thinking I had an oil leak so had to clean up the resulting mess. Renting a lift sounds like a good plan.

 

[r4dk0]

THIRD gearbox? I feel sorry for you, buddy. How many miles did it take to blow up the first two?

• 27,000mi (45kkm) for the first one and
• 21,000mi (35kkm) for the second one.

One thing to note is, I've installed 235/40R18 Continental PremiumContact 7 tires on Hyundai 52910-J9300 rims and run SPORT drive mode often.

2nd change after 650km (settled on top of a magnet). After removing the magnet to take the picture, iron started to form a string and started to float towards the surface due to localized heat from the flashlight.

 

[DavidR]

Regarding Kona Electrics with Gear Reduction Unit issues:
In mid-August I drove 300 miles round trip up into the Adirondack Mts here in NYS and back home to Ithaca, and on this trip for the first time I distinctly heard the Wheel of Fortune noise whenever accelerating or decelerating. On return, I immediately took my 2019 Kona Electric with 49510 miles (79680 km) -- which had its first gear oil change at 36,000 mi/57970 km -- to my dealer (Maguire) with the printout of the first few pages of the GRU "Rumble Noise" Tech Bulletin cited elsewhere on this forum, and explained what I thought was the issue (the GRU).

The technician thought that there was just a leak, and ordered the associated gaskets and gasket cover. But after getting those pieces and investigating further, the technician decided to follow the Tech Bulletin and replaced the bracket specified in the TB. When that didn't fix the noise, he ordered a new GRU, and finished installing that and test driving the car today.

In all my followup phone calls over the next 3 weeks, I was told by the service personnel that the gaskets were on back order, and they were waiting for them to arrive. A week ago I was told that the gaskets had arrived, and I would be getting the car back at the end of this week. Until today I wasn't told that the leak idea had been discarded, that the initial bracket "solution" had been tried, and that the final new replacement GRU "solution" had been arrived at and completed under warranty. I saw the page with the retail prices of the parts and labor: $1950 parts + $1760 labor (at $200/hr), which I'm happy I don't have to pay. But the car is ever so quiet now!

The sample of the oil the technician removed from the original GRU is black -- no surprise after 13500 miles! I haven't looked yet, but I was told that the technician had installed the Toyota magnetic drain and fill plugs from the original GRU into the new GRU -- the plugs that I'd had the dealer install at the 36000 mi GRU oil drain and replacement. I hope that's true.

So my questions to KiwiME, ElectricEddy, and others who have been down this road, are:
--AT WHAT MILEAGE should I change the oil in this new GRU? 300 miles? 500 miles?
--And AFTER WHAT FURTHER MILEAGE should I change it again?
--WHERE on the outside of the GRU case is the best place to stack my 5 disc magnets to stabilize the internal magnet? And what works to adhere the first magnet to that spot on the case?

Thanks for your best advice here.

 

[KiwiME]

--AT WHAT MILEAGE should I change the oil in this new GRU? 300 miles? 500 miles?
--And AFTER WHAT FURTHER MILEAGE should I change it again?

Quite a few owners have done early oil changes on their replaced GRUs and the photos consistently show clear but particle-contaminated oil at the first change.

It's a matter of waiting long enough that the majority of the steel break-in particles have been shed v.s. taking them out of circulation early enough to avoid excessive damage to the ball bearings. I'm assuming you'd have to pay to have oil changes done.

I would suggest 300 miles and about 1,000 miles. I'd also suggest being gentle on the car for that period so that particles shed in smaller sizes.

--WHERE on the outside of the GRU case is the best place to stack my 5 disc magnets to stabilize the internal magnet? And what works to adhere the first magnet to that spot on the case?

My experience has indicated that this doesn't help. The magnetic plugs are a good thing to have however and few owners have been fortunate enough to have them in place from 'new'. I'm looking forward to hear the results of your oil changes.

 

[DavidR]

To continue this thread:
At 375 miles (604 km) I changed the gear reduction unit oil myself, but realized when I got the forward plastic panel off the bottom that the new GRU did _not_ have the magnetic drain and fill plugs installed from the original GRU, as I had requested that they do. However, the new replacement GRU almost certainly came already with fluid and non-magnetic plugs installed, so I can see why the mechanic wouldn't want to replace the plugs, though while it was on the bench and not yet installed, it would have been an easy thing to do, probably not losing any oil!

Frustratingly, I was doing this on a day that the Hyundai dealer's service dept wasn't open, so I couldn't just go and ask them right then if I could have back my magnetic plugs from the original GRU. And it turns out that the Toyota dealer parts counter, which was still open, didn't have those particular magnetic plugs in stock. So I drained the existing oil, saving some for analysis, and put the non-magnetic plugs back in.

I took the _accompanying photo_ of what I hope is the assembly date printed on the replacement GRU case -- 2023.11.15 -- and perhaps the build version of the GRU -- A -- written with a Sharpie on the case following the date. Questions:
--Does anyone have knowledge of whether any improvements were made in the design and build of the Kona GRU's as of that Nov 15 2023 date?
--If the A refers to a build version, does anyone have knowledge of whether that version included any improvements in the GRU?

Now I'm at 1149 mlles/1849 km since the GRU replacement, and it's time for another oil change, based on KiwiME's much-appreciated recommendations. I'll be doing that tomorrow, Oct 1, if it's a nice day. In the meantime I've retrieved my Toyota magnetic drain and fill plugs back from the original GRU, which was still languishing in the warranty return (or scrap heap) at the Hyundai dealer's, and bought a couple of new crush washers for them. The plugs both had some fine black gooey residue on them, as you can see from the _attached picture_. Even though they had been unscrewed immediately after I requested them, I have no idea how much sludge was on them when they came out -- I bet the mechanic wiped them off before giving them to the service manager to give to me. Only now do I realize that all along, each time, I should have just asked to talk to the mechanic who did the work.

So I'll have 3 samples to send off for analysis, and compare with the analysis of original GRU fill at 36006 mi/57946 km:
-- at 49524 mi/79701 km (original GRU, 13518 mi/21755 km since first oil change),
-- at 49899 mi/80305 km (375 mi/604 km on replacement GRU), and
-- at 50673 mi/81550 km (1149 mi/1849 km on replacement GRU).
Then the questions will be:
--Have the iron and aluminum amounts in the 2 oil changes from the replacement GRU shown that most of the wear-in from the gears has been achieved, and is the internal magnet still bashing aluminum off the cage it resides in (assuming that design remains the same)?
--When should I _next_ change the GRU oil?

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[KiwiME]

--Does anyone have knowledge of whether any improvements were made in the design and build of the Kona GRU's as of that Nov 15 2023 date?
--If the A refers to a build version, does anyone have knowledge of whether that version included any improvements in the GRU?

My own GRU doesn't have any obvious date marking so I've not thought to collect information of this nature from other owners, even if they had the opportunity to view it. That is a surprisingly old date from what I would have expected, but there's been no evidence so far from anyone that the problem has been fixed so it's not critical.

The plugs both had some fine black gooey residue on them, as you can see from the _attached picture_. Even though they had been unscrewed immediately after I requested them, I have no idea how much sludge was on them when they came out -- I bet the mechanic wiped them off before giving them to the service manager to give to me.

It's good to see evidence that the Toyota plug worked despite that it has a weaker magnet than the Votex. My tests indicated that it should work equally well but actual proof is always good. The amount on them is about what I would have expected even though the GRU failed and I don't think they were cleaned.
Did you mention to them you are changing the oil and if so did they have any comment about that?

To continue this thread:
So I'll have 3 samples to send off for analysis, and compare with the analysis of original GRU fill at 36006 mi/57946 km:
-- at 49524 mi/79701 km (original GRU, 13518 mi/21755 km since first oil change),
-- at 49899 mi/80305 km (375 mi/604 km on replacement GRU), and
-- at 50673 mi/81550 km (1149 mi/1849 km on replacement GRU).
Then the questions will be:
--Have the iron and aluminum amounts in the 2 oil changes from the replacement GRU shown that most of the wear-in from the gears has been achieved, and is the internal magnet still bashing aluminum off the cage it resides in (assuming that design remains the same)?
--When should I _next_ change the GRU oil?

The UOA results may only provide such clues under the particle count heading where you would expect a large drop on the second oil change. I haven't been collating that information but to make sense of it we would need lots of data from oil changes at under 1,000 miles.

These lab tests are more intended to identify problems that arise over the long term in noisy factory or mobile machinery, to plan maintenance as it wears out. The GRU has a very short life as used in a car compared to industrial machinery and we are seeing damage at the very start, just in a few hundred miles, well before any baseline results can be established. It's not clear if high PPM values would predict an impending failure.

The value of the UOA data is that is indicates that every GRU has the ingredients to fail as those wear particles show up as high PPM numbers once they are small enough. That seems to be not limited to any model year.

Frankly, you could save the money and not do the tests unless you are curious. I could probably tell you more from good photos of the two used oil examples from the new GRU.

Since you're DIY-ing the job rather than spending $hundreds each time you have the luxury of erring on the conservative side and if the second oil change was clean I'd suggest perhaps 3,000 miles would be a good target for the next change.

Thanks for the challenging questions, it keeps me on my toes!

 

[navguy12]

To continue this thread:
At 375 miles (604 km) I changed the gear reduction unit oil myself, but realized when I got the forward plastic panel off the bottom that the new GRU did _not_ have the magnetic drain and fill plugs installed from the original GRU, as I had requested that they do. However, the new replacement GRU almost certainly came already with fluid and non-magnetic plugs installed, so I can see why the mechanic wouldn't want to replace the plugs, though while it was on the bench and not yet installed, it would have been an easy thing to do, probably not losing any oil!

Frustratingly, I was doing this on a day that the Hyundai dealer's service dept wasn't open, so I couldn't just go and ask them right then if I could have back my magnetic plugs from the original GRU. And it turns out that the Toyota dealer parts counter, which was still open, didn't have those particular magnetic plugs in stock. So I drained the existing oil, saving some for analysis, and put the non-magnetic plugs back in.

I took the _accompanying photo_ of what I hope is the assembly date printed on the replacement GRU case -- 2023.11.15 -- and perhaps the build version of the GRU -- A -- written with a Sharpie on the case following the date. Questions:
--Does anyone have knowledge of whether any improvements were made in the design and build of the Kona GRU's as of that Nov 15 2023 date?
--If the A refers to a build version, does anyone have knowledge of whether that version included any improvements in the GRU?

Now I'm at 1149 mlles/1849 km since the GRU replacement, and it's time for another oil change, based on KiwiME's much-appreciated recommendations. I'll be doing that tomorrow, Oct 1, if it's a nice day. In the meantime I've retrieved my Toyota magnetic drain and fill plugs back from the original GRU, which was still languishing in the warranty return (or scrap heap) at the Hyundai dealer's, and bought a couple of new crush washers for them. The plugs both had some fine black gooey residue on them, as you can see from the _attached picture_. Even though they had been unscrewed immediately after I requested them, I have no idea how much sludge was on them when they came out -- I bet the mechanic wiped them off before giving them to the service manager to give to me. Only now do I realize that all along, each time, I should have just asked to talk to the mechanic who did the work.

So I'll have 3 samples to send off for analysis, and compare with the analysis of original GRU fill at 36006 mi/57946 km:
-- at 49524 mi/79701 km (original GRU, 13518 mi/21755 km since first oil change),
-- at 49899 mi/80305 km (375 mi/604 km on replacement GRU), and
-- at 50673 mi/81550 km (1149 mi/1849 km on replacement GRU).
Then the questions will be:
--Have the iron and aluminum amounts in the 2 oil changes from the replacement GRU shown that most of the wear-in from the gears has been achieved, and is the internal magnet still bashing aluminum off the cage it resides in (assuming that design remains the same)?
--When should I _next_ change the GRU oil?

Thanks for your thoughts.

View attachment 23346 View attachment 23347

I applaud your attention to detail, especially in 2024 when no one seems to want to listen and/or simply act upon previously agreed technical details.

 

[Ferenc Jakab]

Just a comment about SOH. At 75000 kms Kona is 92.2%. At 68000 it was 90.1%. Seems quite arbitrary. The weather is warmer now and range improved.

 

[KiwiME]

A number of Kona owners have been reporting SoH recently, perhaps due to the popularity and ease of using Car Scanner. Your numbers don't seem too unusual, including the variation.

There are very few under 90% so far, but that won't last forever.

 

[Ferenc Jakab]

A number of Kona owners have been reporting SoH recently, perhaps due to the popularity and ease of using Car Scanner. Your numbers don't seem too unusual, including the variation.

There are very few under 90% so far, but that won't last forever.

No, I expect not. The difficulty is coming to understand the issues and not panicking. This is within normal parameters.
Partly the problem is that EV data is so readily quantifiable. There is no equivalent measure for wear and degradation in ICE vehicles. Even the Prius didn't have readily accessible data on the battery health.
Hyundai havenn't helped with their user unfriendly attitude to providing technical help.

 

[herode10]

Just a comment about SOH. At 75000 kms Kona is 92.2%. At 68000 it was 90.1%. Seems quite arbitrary. The weather is warmer now and range improved.

Not too sure how to intrepret the SoH value. The SoH was down to 91% just before a BMS software update in 2023. The update has recalibrated the BMS and brought back the SoH number to 100%. I drove the car for another 30000km and it was still at 100%.

 

[Ferenc Jakab]

Didn't get the BMS update. Dealer said my car wasn't eligible. Probably demonstrates we shouldn't be too anal about it. (?)

 

[yurayqo]

Hello. I used chatgpt a lot in the last few months, so I asked what oil I should use in the reduction gearbox for my 2019 e-Niro
The answer was really surprising:
Oil with specifications 75W or 75W80 for manual transmissions is not suitable for use in the reduction gearbox of the Kia e-Niro EV. Here's why:

Why not 75W or 75W80?

1. Specific gearbox design:
   The reduction gearbox in an electric vehicle is designed to transfer high torque from the electric motor to the wheels. This system requires an oil type like ATF SP-IV-RR, which provides:
   
   • Lower viscosity.
   • Specific properties for cooling and lubrication at high speeds and temperatures.
   • Compatibility with materials used in EV gearboxes.
2. Oils for manual transmissions:
   
   • Oils with specifications 75W or 75W80 are thicker and primarily intended for manual transmissions with synchronized gears.
   • These oils do not offer the required cooling and lubrication characteristics for high-speed reduction gearboxes in electric vehicles.

Consequences of using incorrect oil:

• Reduced gearbox efficiency.
• Poor cooling, leading to overheating and potential component damage.
• Loss of vehicle warranty and higher repair costs.

Recommended oils are:
Ravenol ATF SP-IV-RR , ZIC ATF SP4-RR , Liqui Moly Top Tec ATF 1800 , Motul Multi ATF , Valvoline MaxLife Multi-Vehicle ATF .

What do you think about that?