LittleWoods
Active Member
Seems like it’s turning out to have been a really short-sighted strategy to move a working production line from England to China.
Next generation (J01) MINI Cooper revealed
- Thread starter fishbert
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MINI may think of it as a long-sighted strategy if they believe China will become their most lucrative market. It's not as if the US is clammoring for anything but SUVs and pickup trucks.
LittleWoods
Active Member
For the US you’re probably right, but I was thinking more of the EU market in this case.
MichaelC
Well-Known Member
This is inaccurate. They retained a working production line building ICE cars in Oxford while standing up a brand new and completely different production line in China for the next-gen EVs - a very pragmatic strategy to keep production uninterrupted that got completely sideswiped by politics.
LittleWoods
Active Member
What’s inaccurate? We’re talking about EVs, not ICE cars, and the production was moved out of Oxford. It didn’t need to be moved. “Politics” is a part of running any business and a company the size of BMW has lots of experience with this. What’s happening with China tarriffs is not coming out of nowhere, the writing has been on the wall for a while now.
MichaelC
Well-Known Member
Your statement that their strategy was to "move a working production line from England to China" is inaccurate because:
The only reason they could build the retrofit F56 EVs in England is because...they're retrofits that could be built with the same production line they had for the F56 ICE cars. They couldn't do that with the J01 because it needs a completely different manufacturing process; so they chose to start building that car somewhere else in order to avoid stopping ALL car production. The F66 is an evolution of the F56, so it's easier and faster to re-tool the existing production line to continue building the new ICE cars (because BMW was hedging their bets on the EV transition).
From the 2018 BMW + Great Wall Motor partnership announcement:
Back then, everyone had dollar signs in their eyes with the potentially huge EV market in China. A partnership with a Chinese manufacturer is an easier way to get one's foot in the door, and those partnerships almost certainly came with Chinese government incentives. ...And since then, Chinese manufacturers proceeded to successfully capture their own market and build cars that could "threaten" others (the whole Western Automakers Are Cooked realization).
- They will not build any F56 variants in China--not ICE nor EV.
- The J01 EV they are building in China is a completely different design, requiring a completely different production process.
- The production line in England has not been dismantled or moved and is still building cars. It continued to build F56 (and others) for a while and has been retooled to build F66 (and others) now.
The only reason they could build the retrofit F56 EVs in England is because...they're retrofits that could be built with the same production line they had for the F56 ICE cars. They couldn't do that with the J01 because it needs a completely different manufacturing process; so they chose to start building that car somewhere else in order to avoid stopping ALL car production. The F66 is an evolution of the F56, so it's easier and faster to re-tool the existing production line to continue building the new ICE cars (because BMW was hedging their bets on the EV transition).
From the 2018 BMW + Great Wall Motor partnership announcement:
Back then, everyone had dollar signs in their eyes with the potentially huge EV market in China. A partnership with a Chinese manufacturer is an easier way to get one's foot in the door, and those partnerships almost certainly came with Chinese government incentives. ...And since then, Chinese manufacturers proceeded to successfully capture their own market and build cars that could "threaten" others (the whole Western Automakers Are Cooked realization).
teslarati97
Well-Known Member
Historically a 50:50 joint venture partnership was legally required for foreign car manufacturers to operate in China (I think 70:30 now). However, the government strategically allowed Tesla to have 100% foreign ownership back in 2018.
As the saying goes, 能骗就骗 - should the opportunity arise, cheat.
As the saying goes, 能骗就骗 - should the opportunity arise, cheat.
LittleWoods
Active Member
If you're going to nitpick about models then I'm not going to bother engaging with you anymore. The underlying point was that BMW had the ability to sell MINI EVs to both the US and EU markets and now that is going up in smoke because they thought they could capture some quick/easy profits. And they won't even have much of that market in China, either. L's all around.
So I spent a bit of time in the new J01 SE today and can confirm - I didn't hate it, however I didn't like it either. The inside is very "retromod" - modern with a nod towards the old. If feels cheap though. The switch gear in particular screams mediocre. Ignoring the carpet and hard plastics, it feels sort of familiar. The biggest physical differences inside are the lack of screen in front of the driver (although there was a HUD which actually looked better than the F56) and the slope of the windscreen. It is probably only a few degrees extra, but it means you don't have the "tank" style view out the front. Some may say that is an improvement, I just say it is different. I think it feels like an F56 had a child with a model 3. Almost familiar in many respects, but just ....... wrong. I didn't get to drive it properly, so I cant comment, but I think I would get sick of the Mario style sound when you go to go kart mode pretty quickly. It is lardy at 1600kg *without* the driver, and you can't hide that even with clever electronics.
From the outside, the biggest, and most obvious change for me was the lack of the clamshell bonnet. I could live with the back - I would rarely be forced to see it, but the front just yet again, seems wrong. There is nothing about the J01 which is a drop dead NO for me, but so many little things just niggle. This may sound negative, but I thought I would hate it - so it is a big positive in my eyes. It isn't terrible
Would I trade my SE in, absolutely not.
From the outside, the biggest, and most obvious change for me was the lack of the clamshell bonnet. I could live with the back - I would rarely be forced to see it, but the front just yet again, seems wrong. There is nothing about the J01 which is a drop dead NO for me, but so many little things just niggle. This may sound negative, but I thought I would hate it - so it is a big positive in my eyes. It isn't terrible
Would I trade my SE in, absolutely not.
fishbert
Well-Known Member
Fortunately, you can turn that off.
That's only 200kg lighter than a Model 3!
fishbert
Well-Known Member
Context: https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/
It's still well down the chart.
Thanks for that chart, but it doesn't make me happy with the J01's weight gain. I'll just have to hold my breath until solid-state batteries can reverse the trend toward heavier and heavier EVs. I'm probably the only one who would choose a 114-mile J01 if it was lighter than my SE (yet as powerful as the J01 SE).
Puppethead
Well-Known Member
Looks like my dealer has at least one F66 and I can go test drive one at an event this weekend, is it worthwhile as any sort of comparison to the J01? I'm thinking not really, except maybe for the interior and body styling?
CuriousGeorge
Well-Known Member
I had my SE in recently for its 2 y service and had allowed extra time to check out the interior of a new Countryman. I wasn't able to connect with any sales staff to do so, but at least got to look at the new steering wheel, dash, and center display through the window.
Puppethead
Well-Known Member
I went to the new Countryman unveiling and did a writeup in the Countryman EV forum, focusing on the components that should be the same in the EV.
InsideEVs has a soft-ball review of the new MINI center screen.
"There’s something indescribably cool about a completely circular display."
"based on the Android Open Source Project (AOPS for short)"
These quotes are disappointments for me:
- There are very few physical buttons for interacting with the infotainment.
- The Mini system puts everything on the central screen
- Some of the other modes are only accessible via a monthly subscription
- You have to pay for it, but having a car with its own internet is a cool feature.
- Taken a page out of Chinese automakers’ book to give its intelligent voice assistant a name—Spike
- You can almost have a conversation with Spike
- Apple CarPlay and Android Auto, which are displayed in a square window
Wow, I'm hoping that the published weight is with 2 people and luggage. 1480 is over 115kg more than empty. In Europe they normally quote a 75kg driver - maybe other places have much heavier people
Whichever way you look at it, the new SE gains 240kg (528 lb). Very heavy for the size of the car.I too would gladly drop the battery size to make it about the same weight/range as the F56, but I would add the traction control of the F56 and remove all that "drifting fun". I wonder how far the new car would go with the same battery size? You can't just divide, as the weight would be lower meaning less energy used.
I am an engineer and rarely do I buy (or not buy) things based on looks. I cancelled my countryman order (which I placed sight unseen) when I saw it in person. That is one truly ugly hearse - I mean maxi - I mean MINI. Once inside, it has the same gripes I had with the J01. It feels cheap, but is more expensive than the car it is replacing (or closest to for the all electric version). I really don't know what they were thinking. I suppose their loyal fanbase are aging somewhat (looking in the mirror), and they need to attract a younger demographic. Good luck to them - and I mean that sincerely not sarcastically.