Repair issues and fixes
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R P
Well-Known Member
I would expect marketing and product people to want a higher performance product and not dampen it down. That's what I would expect from engineers who may value reliability more.
Don't get me wrong the Solterra and Ioniq 6 are more than powerful enough. But they are also a lot smoother when you can't get that instant jerk of acceleration or regen. Whether that is for reliability or for a more cushy ride is the question. In the end both of these cars are actually higher performance than the Kona, but the Kona could be more fun, at least for the initial pedal action.
KiwiME
Well-Known Member
Marketing often wants a dampened down version so they can later offer an “N”, GT-Line” or “Plaid” version later.
Certainly specifications can be negotiated between marketing and engineering if cost becomes a significant factor but I doubt there is anything in it here.
I suspect the common complaint of inadvertent wheelspin from Kona owners was taken onboard by all manufacturers and it’s reported that the 2023+ Niro EV is less dramatic off the line.
I should also note that torque is torque and the Kona’s 400 N-m is just that irrespective of how fast the computer allows it to be applied. On the other hand shock loading from hitting a pothole could easily be 1.5 or more times that.
Certainly specifications can be negotiated between marketing and engineering if cost becomes a significant factor but I doubt there is anything in it here.
I suspect the common complaint of inadvertent wheelspin from Kona owners was taken onboard by all manufacturers and it’s reported that the 2023+ Niro EV is less dramatic off the line.
I should also note that torque is torque and the Kona’s 400 N-m is just that irrespective of how fast the computer allows it to be applied. On the other hand shock loading from hitting a pothole could easily be 1.5 or more times that.
R P
Well-Known Member
How fast it is allowed to be applied may affect reliability too, not the ultimate torque value. And remember we are talking about small fractions of a second difference, but it is enough to be noticed by a driver. But the instant slam torque must stress some parts of the drive train, incl the mating connections of the motor and gearbox.
Again, just my theory. And when I notice driving other more powerful EVs that don't have this instant slam torque, makes me wonder. The Ioniq 6 has 446 lb ft torque (way more than the Kona) but does not do that initial torque slam. But after that initial fraction of a second ramp up, trust me, it really moves out.
And didn't I read here that someone who did the oil changes early on still got the tick tick. I find it hard to believe that some very low mileage (like some have been) Konas have developed that tick tick because of dirty oil.
Having said all that, certainly no harm, and maybe very good to keep changing that oil until it stays clear. But time will tell if that actually prevents the problem. If it doesn't....?
KiwiME
Well-Known Member
ginc
New Member
I recently bought a Kona 2020 with 28k km on the clock, immediately changed the oil, didn’t get the opportunity to check the color tho :/ However, it started developing the tick tick, happens extremely rarely while decelerating 30-0 km/h… I believe hyundai ppl wont do anything until it’s audible more often and I have several years of guarantee left, so I should probably wait a bit before asking them to change the motor & GRU. Hopefully that “new upgraded” version of the powertrain mentioned in some German forum will become available soon. Whats also interesting is that my motor is OE720, I read somewhere that the WoF problem is a known issue with the OE700 motor.
Not wanting to get involved, but just thinking out load, if the torque curve was the underlying problem with the Kona gearbox, I would have thought reprogramming the control module or damping down the throttle control amplifier gain wouldn't be too difficult.
So I'm dubious as to that being the issue, it would be a cheap and easy fix for Hyundai, if that was the root cause.
Even ICE vehicles, with drive by wire, can have a throttle controller attached.
https://www.repco.com.au/in-car-tec...MIpcKLzZScgAMVrpNmAh1zUA3AEAQYAiABEgL6bvD_BwE
So I'm dubious as to that being the issue, it would be a cheap and easy fix for Hyundai, if that was the root cause.
Even ICE vehicles, with drive by wire, can have a throttle controller attached.
https://www.repco.com.au/in-car-tec...MIpcKLzZScgAMVrpNmAh1zUA3AEAQYAiABEgL6bvD_BwE
R P
Well-Known Member
Not sure how rare it is, as quite a few on this forum have had this issue with most of those being low mileage. And remember, most owners are not on this forum. I guess only Hyundai knows for sure.
I haven't driven a later model Kona, mine was a 2019. I should try one just to see if the new ones are the same. Maybe they did dampen down the initial torque slam. I haven't heard of any later model year Konas with that issue. Now I am curious...
I should mention that my newest EVs are both AWD. Not sure if that makes a difference with how initial torque is applied or perceived. I do know both of them are more powerful than the Kona, just no slam initially with the pedal action.
I figure design flaw...period (all that torque to 2 wheels).
Best possible workaround- use level 1 regen, change GRU oil periodically (add external magnets), don't stomp on the accelerator...this might buy you several if not more years without related issues.
Of course Hyundai may have finally improved the components, which we may be made aware of pending results from latest repairs and their associated part #s
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R P
Well-Known Member
I must admit I enjoyed stomping on the throttle with the Kona, esp at a red light with a sports car or big turbo wheezing pick-up beside me. I would take off like a shot while they were still winding up their turbos. Front tires would chirp to 60 kph (40 mph), and if I hit the TCS button would squeal and smoke tires to that same speed. It was fun although only did the latter (hit TCS) a couple times, as that did indeed make a spectacle. But I truly liked the nimbleness of the Kona. That lasted until 19,000 kms until I got the tick, tick. Took a few iterations, but finally after both gear box and motor changed the tick tick went away. Drove it to almost 50k kms, and no more issues. So whatever they did, seemed to fix the issue. And oh, I did change the gearbox oil once, and yes, it was black. So not sure if the new parts fixed the problem or what. I did have some doubts though, how that car would last after the warranty ran out. So I sold it (got 5k more than I paid for it) after 3 years.
I did go back to a Hyundai though, now with my I6. Whole different level of car, though, and I like it, too. Somehow I don't think will get any tick ticks with this one.
I did go back to a Hyundai though, now with my I6. Whole different level of car, though, and I like it, too. Somehow I don't think will get any tick ticks with this one.
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R P
Well-Known Member
Sorry, don't know, car still very new to me, and will take a while just to learn how to use all the features. The InsideEVs Ioniq 6 forum here doesn't have a lot of posts so no help there. I am also following the VerticalScope Ioniq forum, but most I6s there are still new owners as well. However, the I5 is similar, at least the drive train, and they have had a few issues, but don't recall any coolant talk.
We went for a long day trip on the weekend, and range is definitely good. First 100% charge gave me 546 kms. First fast charger (free Chevron) charged at 103 kw starting at about 20% and stayed there until 80%. Then it paused for a minute or two charging at about 12kw and then ramped back up to 75kw. I stopped it at 81%, as we had more than enough to get back home.
So it is definitely doing well with its role as my trip car. Very comfortable and quiet ride, too. Finally have a car now that I can appreciate music with full clarity at higher highway speeds.
KiwiME
Well-Known Member
It's true that manufacturers occasionally make minor compromises to match a gearbox with an engine. VW has three versions of their DSGs and in some car models (e.g. the Polo GTI) they artificially restrict the torque output of the engine to fit within the gearbox rating. Turbo engine output can easily be restricted (or increased) in torque or power via software. But those DSGs are complicated units requiring hundreds of $millions to develop compared to a simple EV gear reducer.
If excessive torque was an issue Hyundai would have applied a software fix long ago. The battery fires were caused by physical manufacturing defect and they tried a software fix first, as did GM for the Bolt. Excessive torque will cause fairly obvious failures like broken gear teeth or cracked gearbox housings, things we haven't seen.
If excessive torque was an issue Hyundai would have applied a software fix long ago. The battery fires were caused by physical manufacturing defect and they tried a software fix first, as did GM for the Bolt. Excessive torque will cause fairly obvious failures like broken gear teeth or cracked gearbox housings, things we haven't seen.
R P
Well-Known Member
It's not necessarily excessive torque in the case of the Kona, but how it is applied, ie no dampening. When I say dampening, I mean fractions of a second ramp up, which is actually noticeable, but has little effect on 0-60 times. Like I said my new EVs have that initial dampening, and the result is a smoother ride when accelerating or regening. The side effect may be less strain on the drive train parts incl motor mounts.
I keep saying I am no engineer, but I can put 2 and 2 together. And things just don't add up in my mind that dirty gearbox oil is the sole culprit with these tick tick issues. And they may have fixed it, not sure exactly how. But they have recognized the problem and there are new part numbers with the repairs. Like I said, no more issues for me after the gearbox and motor changes. But am still curious if they dampened the onset of torque with the newer Konas. If I get a chance will take one for a test ride. I will be able to tell very quickly.
R P
Well-Known Member
Did a test ride of a 2023 Kona EV today. Had to know... Results were very interesting.
First the acceleration and onset of torque was the same as my 2019. No problem chirping front tires when tromping the pedal. However regen was very different. I set it to level 3 same as I normally used in mine before. But it seemed very weak compared to what I remembered from before, and also much weaker than my Ioniq 6 at level 3. And the onset of regen was very much dampened, almost like a lag before it finally engaged after letting go of the pedal. That was the big surprise. Not at all like my old 2019, which had instant regen as soon as you let off the pedal. It made for some very nimble driving allowing for instant modulation and control of your speed with the pedal. So it does indeed make me wonder if this is one of Hyundai's solutions to prevent damage or stress to the gearbox, motor and motor mounts. Maybe they also changed the earlier models, too, with a software update.
First the acceleration and onset of torque was the same as my 2019. No problem chirping front tires when tromping the pedal. However regen was very different. I set it to level 3 same as I normally used in mine before. But it seemed very weak compared to what I remembered from before, and also much weaker than my Ioniq 6 at level 3. And the onset of regen was very much dampened, almost like a lag before it finally engaged after letting go of the pedal. That was the big surprise. Not at all like my old 2019, which had instant regen as soon as you let off the pedal. It made for some very nimble driving allowing for instant modulation and control of your speed with the pedal. So it does indeed make me wonder if this is one of Hyundai's solutions to prevent damage or stress to the gearbox, motor and motor mounts. Maybe they also changed the earlier models, too, with a software update.
KiwiME
Well-Known Member
In case anyone is interested (classic) Ioniq enthusiast Go Green Autos (on YouTube) did a partial teardown of an Ioniq GRU, basically the same as a '19-'23 Kona and '18-'22 Niro. In the video he removes the factory magnet but doesn't seem to notice that it's not retained firmly in place, despite that I mentioned the issue to him months ago. The inside of the GRU is filthy but he suggests in the comments that it's clean.
Meanwhile there are still ongoing weekly reports of wheel-of fortune noise issues appearing in the Kona on the various forums, mostly from the US and Canadian owners. Only one Ioniq GRU replacement has been reported here in NZ and there are thousands of all these affected EVs on the road.
Two Kia Souls EVs had the WoF problem and one of those owners installed a new GRU himself.
Owners are still reporting DIY oil changes and still finding it black. Two reports of dealers refusing to change the oil out of the US.
Lots of new owners are appearing who have purchased used Konas as prices are very attractive, especially those which were buybacks in the US. Most seem to understand that there is some WoF risk and that a preemptive oil change is helpful.
My next oil change at a 4,000 km interval (27,600 km) is imminent, perhaps in the next two weeks as days are getting warmer. This is when I find out if the mod I did late last year to try and hold the factory magnet more stationary improved the situation. I'm not optimistic however and am trying to think of what I should do if it's still black? I need a genius idea before I have the car up on ramps and am under pressure to get the job done.
Meanwhile there are still ongoing weekly reports of wheel-of fortune noise issues appearing in the Kona on the various forums, mostly from the US and Canadian owners. Only one Ioniq GRU replacement has been reported here in NZ and there are thousands of all these affected EVs on the road.
Two Kia Souls EVs had the WoF problem and one of those owners installed a new GRU himself.
Owners are still reporting DIY oil changes and still finding it black. Two reports of dealers refusing to change the oil out of the US.
Lots of new owners are appearing who have purchased used Konas as prices are very attractive, especially those which were buybacks in the US. Most seem to understand that there is some WoF risk and that a preemptive oil change is helpful.
My next oil change at a 4,000 km interval (27,600 km) is imminent, perhaps in the next two weeks as days are getting warmer. This is when I find out if the mod I did late last year to try and hold the factory magnet more stationary improved the situation. I'm not optimistic however and am trying to think of what I should do if it's still black? I need a genius idea before I have the car up on ramps and am under pressure to get the job done.
hobbit
Well-Known Member
If you go up on ramps, that's not the most optimal drain or refill position; I discovered the hard
way by making a bit of a mess after dumping the replacement quart in. My last time, I simply
jacked the appropriate side to tilt the car left when draining, and right when refilling. That also had
enough of a lifting effect to allow easier access underneath. Up on ramps makes it easier to
pull all the under-covers, of course, but in this case I'd already done that for the "spring cleaning"
and the fluid change was in a separate work session from that.
Also, on that video: *Huh*?? Does the Ioniq gearbox really sit vertically as the guy says, or is
he royally confused as to working orientation?
_H*
way by making a bit of a mess after dumping the replacement quart in. My last time, I simply
jacked the appropriate side to tilt the car left when draining, and right when refilling. That also had
enough of a lifting effect to allow easier access underneath. Up on ramps makes it easier to
pull all the under-covers, of course, but in this case I'd already done that for the "spring cleaning"
and the fluid change was in a separate work session from that.
Also, on that video: *Huh*?? Does the Ioniq gearbox really sit vertically as the guy says, or is
he royally confused as to working orientation?
_H*
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R P
Well-Known Member
I am still not sure it is the dirty oil causing the WoF ticking. Mine happened at about 19,000 kms and I got both the gearbox and motor replaced (new part numbers). Drove it another 20,000 kms before selling it and problem never did come back in that time. I did change the gearbox oil once, and yes, it was black. But have heard on other car forums, that type of gear oil goes black very quickly in all cars, incl differentials.
I think when both the Kona motor and gearbox are changed at the same time, they improved the mating parts clamping to be stronger so that sudden torque and regen is less likely to cause flex. I have no proof of this, just some circumstantial evidence. IE, the Kona EVs (incl the 2023) have a very sudden onset of torque when mashing the pedal. Other cars do not, incl my Ioniq 6 and my Solterra. Both have dampened onsets of torque and regen. It may only be a small fraction of a second, but it is noticeable, and may be a lot easier on motor/gearbox drive trains and motor mounts.
I have brought this up a few times earlier in this thread.
I would like to know too, if any that have had the WoF issue, and had both the gearbox and motor replace, have had the problem come back.
I think when both the Kona motor and gearbox are changed at the same time, they improved the mating parts clamping to be stronger so that sudden torque and regen is less likely to cause flex. I have no proof of this, just some circumstantial evidence. IE, the Kona EVs (incl the 2023) have a very sudden onset of torque when mashing the pedal. Other cars do not, incl my Ioniq 6 and my Solterra. Both have dampened onsets of torque and regen. It may only be a small fraction of a second, but it is noticeable, and may be a lot easier on motor/gearbox drive trains and motor mounts.
I have brought this up a few times earlier in this thread.
I would like to know too, if any that have had the WoF issue, and had both the gearbox and motor replace, have had the problem come back.
KiwiME
Well-Known Member
Yeah, he's totally confused as to how it's oriented despite that he's done an oil change while on a lift and does a lot of semi-technical videos. He might be mislead because the inverter and OBC sit on top of the motor and make the assembly look "tall". He's amicable to my comments however so might soon explain himself.
I agree that just lifting one side as needed is certainly the most expeditious way to get the job done but I'll be poking my inspection camera in the drain hole to have a look around so need the elbow room. I might also spend some time napping on the rug I use to lie on, pondering what's going on inside. If the oil is still black I will try a different external magnet location to see if I can keep the internal magnet pushed into one corner. In theory all the round magnets should align on a single vertical axis but already I can see that I placed the outer ones too far away to allow that.
The biggest mistake I've made was once thinking I should remove the fill plug first so it drains smoothly. While on ramps the oil first spills out of the fill opening and drains directly into the rear underside panel. That meant removing and cleaning the panel in case the dealer noticed the oil during the traction battery replacement and thought I had a leak.
The best piece of evidence in my view is that the several owners (or their mechanics) who have rebuilt their own gearboxes all completed the repair by replacing the ball and roller bearings. No one has had to replace gears or the housing, and in every case the repair was successful. There's one case where the noise persisted and the mechanic found the motor tail bearing had also failed. That same mechanic (AutoRepairVideos) inspected a failed Niro gearbox bearing for electrical discharge and concluded that was not the cause.
In the big picture ball bearings rely on clean oil to obtain their optimum service life. What nearly 100 photos of used oil have shown is that the oil is almost always far from clean. Running in dirty oil compromises the lifetime curve that the bearing can achieve. Some fail while the car is still in service and some don't.