Winter efficiency - cold/warm battery

R

Rasmus Aage

New Member
Hi

I am going on a road trip (700 km) next week in my Cooper SE. I have done a few road trips in the car before, so its no concern. My other road trips have been in the summer though.

I have read that the heat pump utilizes heat from the battery to warm the cabin. Since the heater uses a fair amount of energy when it's cold, I was wondering whether the efficiency will improve as the battery gets warm. I imagine the battery will be nice and warm after a DC charge or two.

Cheers

Rasmus who is driving from near Copenhagen to Berlin.
 
Rasmus Aage said:
Hi

I am going on a road trip (700 km) next week in my Cooper SE. I have done a few road trips in the car before, so its no concern. My other road trips have been in the summer though.

I have read that the heat pump utilizes heat from the battery to warm the cabin. Since the heater uses a fair amount of energy when it's cold, I was wondering whether the efficiency will improve as the battery gets warm. I imagine the battery will be nice and warm after a DC charge or two.

Cheers

Rasmus who is driving from near Copenhagen to Berlin.
Click to expand...
FYI, your SE has both a heat pump that works down to a certain temperature and a more energy-robbing resistive heater that takes over when it's too cold for the heat pump. I'm hoping someone who can monitor the drain on the battery while driving will be able to to discover what that certain temperature is.

@Puppethead has conducted uncomfortable experiments in cold weather that appear to indicate the battery is just as efficient in cold weather as in warm weather--as long as you don't turn on the heat. @Puppethead didn't just drive without the SE's cabin heat; he drove with the windows down to prevent the windows from fogging up.

So pack a thick, down-filled coat. Then if you see your Guess-O-Meter getting into the scary zone you can put on the coat and switch to Green+ mode.
 
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Can't give an exact figure regarding the range hit, but pre-heating the cabin while on mains power and lowering cabin temp while utilizing the seat heaters will reduce your consumption somewhat (and of course wearing a jacket like @insightman said). I have been meaning to experiment with a 12V heated blanket, but it doesn't often get cold 'round these parts.
 
Generally air source heat pumps utilize heat from the outside air only. There is also a backup auxiliary resistance heater for extreme cold temperatures.

Tesla is the only brand I know that is able to divert heat from the HV battery packs, but the technology is mostly patented. The space-saving Octovalve however is currently "patent pending".

As for cold temps, I didn't try because it was 12+ inches of snow and -20F (-29C) overnight.
 
teslarati97 said:
Generally air source heat pumps utilize heat from the outside air only.
Click to expand...

The quote below implies the SE uses heat from the motor/battery heating and cooling circuits. I assume the heat pump is partially responsible for all this plumbing around the motor:

upload_2022-11-11_10-45-46.webp


On the glorious day when MINI introduced the SE in July, 2019, they claimed their heat pump uses 75% less energy than a conventional electric heating system, but they didn't say if it uses 75% less energy than THEIR conventional (resistive) electric heating system:

The heat pump developed for the new MINI Cooper SE is particularly efficient. It uses 75% less energy than a conventional electric heating system and provides a high level of climate comfort in winter mode. In order to increase range, the cooling and heating circuits are directly linked to the drive technology, forming a highly efficient overall system. An integrated control system guarantees a pleasant interior temperature and an ideal operating temperature for the high-voltage battery at the same time—independently of each other, by means of cooling and heating.

There's an informative cabin-heating thread on this forum: Heating the MINI Cooper SE's Cabin
 
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insightman said:
The heat pump developed for the new MINI Cooper SE is particularly efficient. It uses 75% less energy than a conventional electric heating system and provides a high level of climate comfort in winter mode. In order to increase range, the cooling and heating circuits are directly linked to the drive technology, forming a highly efficient overall system. An integrated control system guarantees a pleasant interior temperature and an ideal operating temperature for the high-voltage battery at the same time—independently of each other, by means of cooling and heating.
Click to expand...
I read from BMW Press Group as an air-source heat pump using a modified air conditioning loop (1234YF refrigerant). Batteries and motor should be using a water/glycol coolant loop. If the reversing valve gets stuck, drivers will experience A/C instead of heating.

"The standard trim of the new MINI Cooper SE includes a 2-zone automatic air conditioning system with separate ventilation and temperature control for the driver and front passenger sides. The interior is heated by means of a heat pump which collects waste heat from the motor, drive control, high-voltage battery and outside air before feeding it into the air conditioning system. The heat pump developed for the new MINI Cooper SE is particularly efficient. It uses 75 per cent less energy than a conventional electric heating system and provides a high level of climate comfort in winter mode. In order to increase range, the cooling and heating circuits are directly linked to the drive technology, forming a highly efficient overall system. An integrated control system guarantees a pleasant interior temperature and an ideal operating temperature for the high-voltage battery at the same time – independently of each other, by means of cooling and heating."

For Tesla, it should be integrated an liquid heat pump loops + heat exchangers (battery + motor + cabin) using the space-saving octovalve. It's sort of a hybrid air+liquid source heat pump(s).
 
teslarati97 said:
I read from BMW Press Group as an air-source heat pump using a modified air conditioning loop (1234YF refrigerant). Batteries and motor should be using a water/glycol coolant loop. If the reversing valve gets stuck, drivers will experience A/C instead of heating.

"The standard trim of the new MINI Cooper SE includes a 2-zone automatic air conditioning system with separate ventilation and temperature control for the driver and front passenger sides. The interior is heated by means of a heat pump which collects waste heat from the motor, drive control, high-voltage battery and outside air before feeding it into the air conditioning system. The heat pump developed for the new MINI Cooper SE is particularly efficient. It uses 75 per cent less energy than a conventional electric heating system and provides a high level of climate comfort in winter mode. In order to increase range, the cooling and heating circuits are directly linked to the drive technology, forming a highly efficient overall system. An integrated control system guarantees a pleasant interior temperature and an ideal operating temperature for the high-voltage battery at the same time – independently of each other, by means of cooling and heating."

For Tesla, it should be integrated an liquid heat pump loops + heat exchangers (battery + motor + cabin) using the space-saving octovalve. It's sort of a hybrid air+liquid source heat pump(s).
Click to expand...
For a converted ICE car, the SE is pretty sophisticated. I was bummed when the 2009 MINI-E led to the BMW i3 instead of directly to a mass-market MINI EV, but because the SE benefits from years of improvements to the i3, I'm completely un-bummed.
 
teslarati97 said:
I read from BMW Press Group as an air-source heat pump using a modified air conditioning loop (1234YF refrigerant). Batteries and motor should be using a water/glycol coolant loop. If the reversing valve gets stuck, drivers will experience A/C instead of heating.

"The standard trim of the new MINI Cooper SE includes a 2-zone automatic air conditioning system with separate ventilation and temperature control for the driver and front passenger sides. The interior is heated by means of a heat pump which collects waste heat from the motor, drive control, high-voltage battery and outside air before feeding it into the air conditioning system. The heat pump developed for the new MINI Cooper SE is particularly efficient. It uses 75 per cent less energy than a conventional electric heating system and provides a high level of climate comfort in winter mode. In order to increase range, the cooling and heating circuits are directly linked to the drive technology, forming a highly efficient overall system. An integrated control system guarantees a pleasant interior temperature and an ideal operating temperature for the high-voltage battery at the same time – independently of each other, by means of cooling and heating."

For Tesla, it should be integrated an liquid heat pump loops + heat exchangers (battery + motor + cabin) using the space-saving octovalve. It's sort of a hybrid air+liquid source heat pump(s).
Click to expand...


If this is indeed correct, I guess it means that the car will be more effective once it's warm as the heat pump collects waste heat from the battery. Time will tell. :-)
 
insightman said:
For a converted ICE car, the SE is pretty sophisticated. I was bummed when the 2009 MINI-E led to the BMW i3 instead of directly to a mass-market MINI EV, but because the SE benefits from years of improvements to the i3, I'm completely un-bummed.
Click to expand...
This new YouTube video has a nice little bit in the beginning about MINI's electrification journey, and some nice points about the SE (there's even scoop bashing!).

 
insightman said:
FYI, your SE has both a heat pump that works down to a certain temperature and a more energy-robbing resistive heater that takes over when it's too cold for the heat pump. I'm hoping someone who can monitor the drain on the battery while driving will be able to to discover what that certain temperature is.

@Puppethead has conducted uncomfortable experiments in cold weather that appear to indicate the battery is just as efficient in cold weather as in warm weather--as long as you don't turn on the heat. @Puppethead didn't just drive without the SE's cabin heat; he drove with the windows down to prevent the windows from fogging up.

So pack a thick, down-filled coat. Then if you see your Guess-O-Meter getting into the scary zone you can put on the coat and switch to Green+ mode.
Click to expand...
Can somebody proof me wrong is no resistive heater in Mini Cooper SE period is only heat exchanger pump why this resistive absolute device be there and Tesla change 2-3 years ago to heat exchange pump and resistive primitive wire for heating was abandoned for efficient heating and cooling and in very low extreme temperatures the heat exchange pumps are not so good but still is a marvel of this technology and as EVs I don’t see them in Alaska and only 1 in Minnesota or Ann Harbor and 2 in Staten Island NY as I know about .
 
Rasmus Aage said:
Hi

I am going on a road trip (700 km) next week in my Cooper SE. I have done a few road trips in the car before, so its no concern. My other road trips have been in the summer though.

I have read that the heat pump utilizes heat from the battery to warm the cabin. Since the heater uses a fair amount of energy when it's cold, I was wondering whether the efficiency will improve as the battery gets warm. I imagine the battery will be nice and warm after a DC charge or two.

Cheers

Rasmus who is driving from near Copenhagen to Berlin.
Click to expand...
Once you start driving your HV battery will be cooling by driving and as battery is getting colder I don’t see any benefits to heat exchange pump which is on front of a car and I’m seeing only benefits from warm air around 30-40F anything below those temperatures is very unsufficient a sit heating and steering wheel heating good gloves my do a job .As I live in EU for 30 years is not cold there. Heating sits doing great job and use green mode .
 
Rexsio said:
Once you start driving your HV battery will be cooling by driving and as battery is getting colder I don’t see any benefits to heat exchange pump which is on front of a car and I’m seeing only benefits from warm air around 30-40F anything below those temperatures is very unsufficient a sit heating and steering wheel heating good gloves my do a job .As I live in EU for 30 years is not cold there. Heating sits doing great job and use green mode .
Click to expand...
If I will be able to charge SE 5 times on your trip 800 km or 500 miles I will be not worry about performance just drive and abuse a car and drive 60/miles/hr and you feel comfortable in a car just 5 charging session in your 700 KM trip.
 
Puppethead said:
This new YouTube video has a nice little bit in the beginning about MINI's electrification journey, and some nice points about the SE (there's even scoop bashing!).
Click to expand...
Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield explains that Green+ Mode disables the AC, but omits that it also disables the heat. With a bit more research she would have discovered that ICE MINIs also have fake hood scoops. I realize she's in Portland, Oregon, but being a car person with an accent like that, I'm surprised she doesn't know what British Racing Green looks like. How did she get an SE with adaptive headlights in the US?
 
Rexsio said:
Can somebody proof me wrong is no resistive heater in Mini Cooper SE period is only heat exchanger pump why this resistive absolute device be there and Tesla change 2-3 years ago to heat exchange pump and resistive primitive wire for heating was abandoned for efficient heating and cooling and in very low extreme temperatures the heat exchange pumps are not so good but still is a marvel of this technology and as EVs I don’t see them in Alaska and only 1 in Minnesota or Ann Harbor and 2 in Staten Island NY as I know about .
Click to expand...
I don't believe there are any automotive heat pumps that work at 20 below zero and @Puppethead, who lives where it gets colder than 20 below zero, is still with us. So there must be a resistive heater, too.
 
Puppethead said:
There is definitely a resistive heater in the SE, I have plenty of heat even when temperatures are -20 ºF or colder.

A flashback to a February day in 2021...

View attachment 18907
Click to expand...
Sophisticated HAVC system on SE is taking care of heat to heat interior to retrieve heat from HV battery from motor from outside but is not any resistive system in this car to generate heat for heating a interior of a car and is nothing there to heat HV battery in cold climates you can preheat interior once you plug a car or waste juice from battery to heat a cabin and obviously is cooling system for HV battery in hot climates .
 
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