Very Simply 300 is insufficient

P

Pottsda

New Member
It seems the accepted target for EV's is 300 miles per charge (except Lucid).
I live in Northeast US and i.m.o. 300 is an insufficient goal. My EV6 claims 300 miles (at best). It appears this calculation is based on a 77kwh battery and a "mileage" of 4miles per Kwh. In winter this assumption is unattainable. My 4.0 mi/kwh becomes closer to 2.4 to 3.2 Hence a 77kwh Battey realistically will attain (77x2.4=)185 miles or (77x3.2=)246 miles Using this and factoring in the following;
- Manufacturers recommend charging to 80% to maximize battery life...148 to 196 miles
- Since nobody drives it to empty subtract 25 to 50 miles which leaves roughly 123 to 171 miles AT BEST.

I find these numbers are marginally satisfactory if one charges at home, nightly. However for the industry to advertise 300 miles per charge is wholly misleading.
In conclusion if one is contemplating a BEV, the useful range should be assumed to be about half the stated range (for cold weather) and about 2/3rds to 3/4 for optimum weather and charging conditions.

note: Don't get me started on what an electric truck towing a trailer will likely yield.
 
Pottsda said:
I live in Northeast US and i.m.o. 300 is an insufficient goal. ...
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EVs are not for everyone and there are parts of the USA where insufficient, fast DC chargers and L2 charging at shopping centers makes an EV impractical.
  • My EV6 claims 300 miles (at best). It appears this calculation is based on a 77kwh battery and a "mileage" of 4miles per Kwh. In winter this assumption is unattainable. My 4.0 mi/kwh becomes closer to 2.4 to 3.2 Hence a 77kwh Battey realistically will attain (77x2.4=)185 miles or (77x3.2=)246 miles Using this and factoring in the following;
    • Correct! It is worse because few understand how the EPA requires manufactures to document their range results. A decade of Prius driving and testing confirmed by subsequent PHEVs and my Tesla has confirmed that the mile range is on a "Standard Day" (~60-70 F) at ~63 MPH. Below 55 F, everyone notices the lost range and in Dixie, above 85 F when the air conditioning load kicks in.
  • - Manufacturers recommend charging to 80% to maximize battery life...148 to 196 miles
    • My Tesla with NMC chemistry started with a 240 mi, Standard Day range, and after 6 years, 148,000 miles, it shows between 200-210, about an 83% battery degradation. Happily, SuperChargers and adding CCS-1 capability means the decreased range has no significant effect. I still drive as much as I want, when I want, and where I want.
  • - Since nobody drives it to empty subtract 25 to 50 miles which leaves roughly 123 to 171 miles AT BEST.
    • There is a trick, use just the indicated range miles and miles to destination: (1) +40 miles reserve, drive anyway you want; (2) +30 miles, calm driving like the slower semi-trailer trucks; (3) +20 miles, start looking at the minimum speed and even using emergency flashers, and; (4) +10 miles, look for a place to. park for the tow truck.
I live in Dixie and have seen the growth of fast DC chargers increase faster than my battery degradation. I have also learned about the 'stealth loads' like keeping the battery at the best temperature that can rob range even while parked. A retired engineer, own a Tesla BEV and BMW i3-REx PHEV have been and remain fun problems. But not everyone likes such challenges.

Bob Wilson
 
bwilson4web said:
EVs are not for everyone and there are parts of the USA where insufficient, fast DC chargers and L2 charging at shopping centers makes an EV impractical.
  • My EV6 claims 300 miles (at best). It appears this calculation is based on a 77kwh battery and a "mileage" of 4miles per Kwh. In winter this assumption is unattainable. My 4.0 mi/kwh becomes closer to 2.4 to 3.2 Hence a 77kwh Battey realistically will attain (77x2.4=)185 miles or (77x3.2=)246 miles Using this and factoring in the following;
    • Correct! It is worse because few understand how the EPA requires manufactures to document their range results. A decade of Prius driving and testing confirmed by subsequent PHEVs and my Tesla has confirmed that the mile range is on a "Standard Day" (~60-70 F) at ~63 MPH. Below 55 F, everyone notices the lost range and in Dixie, above 85 F when the air conditioning load kicks in.
  • - Manufacturers recommend charging to 80% to maximize battery life...148 to 196 miles
    • My Tesla with NMC chemistry started with a 240 mi, Standard Day range, and after 6 years, 148,000 miles, it shows between 200-210, about an 83% battery degradation. Happily, SuperChargers and adding CCS-1 capability means the decreased range has no significant effect. I still drive as much as I want, when I want, and where I want.
  • - Since nobody drives it to empty subtract 25 to 50 miles which leaves roughly 123 to 171 miles AT BEST.
    • There is a trick, use just the indicated range miles and miles to destination: (1) +40 miles reserve, drive anyway you want; (2) +30 miles, calm driving like the slower semi-trailer trucks; (3) +20 miles, start looking at the minimum speed and even using emergency flashers, and; (4) +10 miles, look for a place to. park for the tow truck.
I live in Dixie and have seen the growth of fast DC chargers increase faster than my battery degradation. I have also learned about the 'stealth loads' like keeping the battery at the best temperature that can rob range even while parked. A retired engineer, own a Tesla BEV and BMW i3-REx PHEV have been and remain fun problems. But not everyone likes such challenges.

Bob Wilson
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Hate to be a stickler here Bob> You said your battery shows 83% degradation. I think you meant 83% state of health and 17% degradation. Right?
 
It all depends on where you live and what type of driving you do. If you live in a cold climate and regularly drive long distances, a 300 mi. range only available in optimal weather probably doesn't cut it. But if you don't normally drive more than 100 miles a day and can charge at home, it's no biggie. And quite a few of us live in places where the temp rarely or never falls below 50F, so temp has almost no impact on our range. That said, if EVs are to become the norm in cold climates, range and charging infrastructure will need to improve. Of course, Norway -- not known for warm, tropical weather -- is close to having EVs hit 90% of sales, so it can be done in cold climates. I presume the charging infrastructure there is good. I'm curious what Norwegian driving patterns are, something I have zero knowledge of.
 
As B Wilson says it's all in whether an EV can meet your needs. I have a 2023 VW id.4 with a 77kwh battery as well. Tomorrow I am travelling to a city 200km away to work for the day. I would have enough range to do the round trip in summer temps without charging along the way. I also live in a climate similar to the NE States and my range runs around 325km right now with the colder temps.

I will charge to full overnight and a client just informed me that they now have an L2 I can use while at their home. This should add another 50km of range which is almost enough. I will still need to top up at an L3 on the way home but it will likely be a 10 to 15 minute stop. There are a number of L3s on the route back. Hopefully one of them will be working and available.

I only do runs like that a few times a year. I used to have to top up my 2018 40kwh Leaf and some of the out of town runs more than 100km away in the winter but the VW has eliminated most of the public charging that I had to do in the past. I do have a 25 year old ICE vehicle I can take on some runs where chargers are not available but in all honesty if I was driving long distances regularly I'd be tempted to go back to ICE even though I love my EVs.
 
That's exactly where I am on this. I would love to have an EV but I do enough road trips that I am not willing to accept the range limitations of EVs, which to some extent isn't just range limitation but more like lack of public charging stations and the exorbitant costs of the ones we do have. But range itself is an issue in that EVs require far more frequent refueling stops than ICE, even if there were charging stations everywhere. It's complicated.

Paul K said:
I only do runs like that a few times a year. I used to have to top up my 2018 40kwh Leaf and some of the out of town runs more than 100km away in the winter but the VW has eliminated most of the public charging that I had to do in the past. I do have a 25 year old ICE vehicle I can take on some runs where chargers are not available but in all honesty if I was driving long distances regularly I'd be tempted to go back to ICE even though I love my EVs.
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Raylo said:
It's complicated.
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It is different, new skills and practices. Fortunately, I started with a 2014 BMW i3-REx in 2016 which had a 25 kW, two cylinder, range extender for the "Opps." For example, learning about the low quality and high cost of CCS-1, fast DC chargers. Later, the 2017 Prius Prime taught another valuable lesson which included getting an early trade-in for a 2019 Model 3.

In six years and 148,000 miles, my Model 3 has had one unexpected "charge tow" about 1/2 mile from the SuperChargers. Lesson learned, the Model 3 will use its remaining charge to keep the battery in a good temperature range while parked. Also, don't believe the reviewers who claim their 'Press Car' has undocumented, extra range. The BMW may not be as aggressive about the battery temperature but if the range extender engine runs, the cooling continues after parking.

If risk adverse, a PHEV can be a good training car. If it doesn't work out, sell or trade it in.

Bob Wilson
 
We have had this discussion several times already, but no, that would not work for me. First, the relatively short range compared to ICE and then the inability to just pull off any given Interstate ramp and find a place to recharge. Having to stop even every 300 miles for "fuel" (optimistic as the OP noted, probably more like 200, best case) and then having to plan out in advance where to find a working fast charger, have multiple accounts and apps, etc... and then those costs are so high as to be equivalent per mile as for gas in my ICE vehicle makes this a losing proposition. Much inconvenience and no cost savings. Road trips are no bueno in current EVs and with the poor current infrastructure, at least for me. Well, maybe a little better in a Lucid Air GT, but I am not paying $120k for a car.

R P said:
If you want an EV for trips, choose one that has fast charging. I have the Ioniq 6, and can tell you that it is more than sufficient for trips.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html
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Are you saying when you travel that you want to always drive 4 -5 hours at a time without a break for food, or other? I can see long haul truckers doing that, but not people road tripping in a car. And "planning" is pretty easy with the onboard nav that gives you all the info you want while driving on possible upcoming charging stations, incl availability, and alternates. Your arguments sound more like really weak rationalizations for not buying an EV.
 
For sure. I can drive 550 miles on a tank and just hit a couple rest areas for a quick splash or 2 along the way without ever taking an off ramp. Bring food and drink with me. Then a 5 minute gas stop, rinse and repeat. And even the premise that you have to stop for food and bathroom makes no sense, because you still can't just stop anywhere and find a charger so you might have to stop even before you reach a low charge level. I have worked those EV trip planners and most trips include some overly short legs simply because of where the chargers are. IOW driving an EV just creates too many constraints to efficient travel. And for no cost savings. Now, if gasoline prices rise a lot the calculus may change... but I am cynical about that because these charging providers are savvy enough to raise their rates to make the per mile costs equivalent, like they are now.

R P said:
Are you saying when you travel that you want to always drive 4 -5 hours at a time without a break for food, or other? I can see long haul truckers doing that, but not people road tripping in a car. And "planning" is pretty easy with the onboard nav that gives you all the info you want while driving on possible upcoming charging stations, incl availability, and alternates. Your arguments sound more like really weak rationalizations for not buying an EV.
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Ah, so you will be doing 5 min stops (in reality they are likely 10 or 15 min). With the I6 you can get a decent charge top up with a 10 min rest stop. And there are many of those along the way. It is much faster to plug in for a short time and charge than doing a gas fill-up.

As for stopping anywhere, again, that's where your onboard nav tools let you plan that while you drive. You can't do that with an ICE car, and just need to watch for them along the way. And the charging stations are a way more plentiful for most trips (all the ones I have ever taken) than you realize. In some cases, there are more charging station stops than there are gas stations on your route, giving you more choices about when and where to stop. Case in point, here in BC in the mountains, there is a less travelled southern route called hwy 3, which has some considerable distances between gas stations. They have hwy signs warning you how far the next chance to fill up is. But there are charging stations along the way. One example is hyw 3 from Hope to Princeton. There are several charging stops, but no gas stations in between.

Everything you have said so far, does not hold water with me. You are just simply dead set against EVs, and keep coming up with arguments that are not valid or very much the exceptions and outliers. I know your mind is closed about this, but this is your problem, and you are just missing out. That's all I can say...
 
You must have missed the part where I said having to "plan" and build my trips around fuel stops is not acceptable to me. Of course, it may not be an issue for others, especially those who have EVs and have no choice.

R P said:
As for stopping anywhere, again, that's where your onboard nav tools let you plan that while you drive.
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Raylo said:
You must have missed the part where I said having to "plan" and build my trips around fuel stops is not acceptable to me. Of course, it may not be an issue for others, especially those who have EVs and have no choice.
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What, letting your nav give you info while driving about upcoming charging stations where you might want to stop is too difficult to plan!!?? Like I said, you are really stretching to find objections to road tripping with an EV. I still remember when driving with an ICE, I used to have to plan ahead where to find the next Costco gas station. They are certainly a lot less plentiful than charging stations, and indeed take some real planning, ahead of the next driving leg.
 
This is the same old tired discussion. We will just have to agree to disagree on what you believe are minor inconveniences that I believe are a major PITA. To each his own and YMMV. Good luck.
 
Raylo said:
This is the same old tired discussion. We will just have to agree to disagree on what you believe are minor inconveniences that I believe are a major PITA. To each his own and YMMV. Good luck.
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Well, can't disagree with that. Best of luck to you as well.
 
Raylo said:
Road trips are no bueno in current EVs and with the poor current infrastructure, at least for me.
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EVs are not for everyone but work great for me. For example, driving 1,200 miles each way to witness the Starship launches in my 2019 Tesla Model 3, 4 mi/kWh, with Full Self Driving:
  • first 200 miles, $6 - $0.12/kWh from home charging
  • middle 800 miles, $72 - $0.32-36/kWh SuperChargers
  • last 200 miles, $0 - free charging at motel
So my electric costs are about $78 for 1,200 miles.

There are regional differences but Google reports an average cost of $3.253/gal or roughly the cost equivalent of 30 gallons ($78 / $3.253/gal) to travel 1,200 miles, 40 MPG. Price parity with the most efficient ICE:
gas_MPG.webp

Of course, staying at my motel with free charging makes local driving more affordable than an ICE.

Bob Wilson
 
Pottsda said:
It seems the accepted target for EV's is 300 miles per charge (except Lucid).
I live in Northeast US and i.m.o. 300 is an insufficient goal. My EV6 claims 300 miles (at best). It appears this calculation is based on a 77kwh battery and a "mileage" of 4miles per Kwh. In winter this assumption is unattainable. My 4.0 mi/kwh becomes closer to 2.4 to 3.2 Hence a 77kwh Battey realistically will attain (77x2.4=)185 miles or (77x3.2=)246 miles Using this and factoring in the following;
- Manufacturers recommend charging to 80% to maximize battery life...148 to 196 miles
- Since nobody drives it to empty subtract 25 to 50 miles which leaves roughly 123 to 171 miles AT BEST.

I find these numbers are marginally satisfactory if one charges at home, nightly. However for the industry to advertise 300 miles per charge is wholly misleading.
In conclusion if one is contemplating a BEV, the useful range should be assumed to be about half the stated range (for cold weather) and about 2/3rds to 3/4 for optimum weather and charging conditions.

note: Don't get me started on what an electric truck towing a trailer will likely yield.
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Your point about EV range claims are very valid. You start with a car with 300 miles of range, but then highway driving cuts your range, cold cuts your range, you can't count on chargers so you have to leave a buffer at the bottom, after you reach 80% charging it slows down drastically, so you can't use the top 20%, this all drastically cuts your "300" miles of range. I really think the solution for most people is not more range, but faster, RELIABLE DCFC. The few EV road trips I've taken have been marred by chargers that either don't work, don't charge as quickly as they should, or had a waiting line. Once affordable EVs charge like a Porshe Taycan or the new chinese EVs and charging stops are RELIABLY 10-15 minutes, I'll be ready to go full EV.

Another major issue is that we all have different tolerances for how much longer our road trips are with an EV. Some people seem to enjoy the challenge and even geek out about the charging/planning. I just see it as an inconvenience. This is why, even though I've driven EVs for 8 years, I still use a PHEV for road trips.
 
Exactly, and this is a huge part of it. Early adopters and EV "nerds" seem to relish the challenges they present and working around them. Whereas I just want my transportation to be as fast and as frictionless as possible. So, as much as I love the concept, I don't see buying an EV for 5 years at least, and only then if the infrastructure improves a LOT... which I doubt will happen under the current regime.

Mark W said:
Another major issue is that we all have different tolerances for how much longer our road trips are with an EV. Some people seem to enjoy the challenge and even geek out about the charging/planning. I just see it as an inconvenience. This is why, even though I've driven EVs for 8 years, I still use a PHEV for road trips.
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Raylo said:
Early adopters and EV "nerds" seem to relish the challenges they present and working around them. Whereas I just want my transportation …
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Fair enough. EVs are different and we’re learning the differences and sharing how to achieve the goal of getting from point A to B. There are options.

Bob Wilson
 
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