The memory effect...

Martin Williams said:
I think you have misunderstood my point or are being disingenuous.
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You complaining about me being disingenuous has to be the most perfect example I've ever seen of someone complaining about the mote in the other fellow's eye while ignoring the beam in his own eye. Compared to attempting to have a real debate with you, nailing Jell-O to a wall is bog easy. Apparently you consider it the moral equivalent of eating babies to ever acknowledge that anyone disagreeing with you ever has a valid point.

I certainly regret trying to engage you in meaningful dialogue, because you make that impossible.
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It seems 'meaningful dialogue' means different things to different people.

I have stuck to discussing the content of your posts rather than attacking you personally, and will continue to do so, however.

You are, of course, equally free to adopt your style of debate too.
 
Martin, it seems to me that you were disingenuous in creating a thread purportedly about a problem with remembering to charge an EV and then turning it into a soapbox questioning the enthusiasm for and growth of plug-in EVs. Plug-in EVs are certainly not the best fit for all people, but they work great for some, in the same way that FCVs work great for others. You seem to have greater enthusiasm for FCVs and depending on your particular situation, it may work better for you.

Personally, I'm very enthusiastic about fuel cell vehicles. I waited three years for the planned growth in H2 fueling infrastructure as I wanted to get the (original) Clarity FCV, only to see a number of "planned" stations never materialize. And I'm in Southern California, one of the prime H2 regions in the US. There is still only a single H2 station within a 35 minute driving radius of both home and work for me. On Sunday, a fire on the H2 delivery truck for this station led to this station shutting down, and it remains shut down today. If I depended on a FCV for my daily commute and happened to be low on fuel, this would have been problematic. So while I appreciate FCVs in theory, the actual implementation of the H2 infrastructure has not reached the level of practicality for my area.
 
I would question your accusation of 'disingenuous'. I may have wandered onto my soapbox but I didn't pretend to misunderstand anyone to promote my argument which is what disingenuous is all about. Any misunderstanding was genuine.

It's good to know I'm not the only one who believes that FCVs have a future, and I am sorry to hear about a filling station near you closing down rather than opening up. My argument has always been about the future, however, and I believe the necessary infrastructure will come. (I wonder if mobile filling stations are a possibility?)

I can see that ownership of an FCV now would have given you problems, but I imagine that might be true of any early adopter of new technology. Some of the early Leaf buyers are probably finding the limited mileage is giving them problems too. And the first buyers of early ICE's had to buy their fuel from pharmacists by the bottle and struggle with cranking their engines before self-starting was developed.
 
Quoting from my copy of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary -- Tenth Edition:

disingenuous
adjective

lacking in candor; also: giving a false appearance of simple frankness: calculating
​
Cited from the dictionary I keep at my desk for reference, and not cherry-picked in any way.

Generally speaking, I think that if a debate descends into arguing over the definition of words, it's a very strong indication that the dialogue has gone far past any meaningful exchange of ideas. But in this case, citing the actual dictionary definition appears appropriate. I'm not going to engage in any further argument over what "disingenuous" actually means. If someone else wants to literally argue with the dictionary, then I'll get out of the way.
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Martin Williams said:
(I wonder if mobile [hydrogen] filling stations are a possibility?)
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Altho I note that it's an oxymoron to call anything mobile a "station", nonetheless there are (or at least were) what are described as mobile hydrogen fueling "stations". Toyota has sometimes used those to supplement the H2 fuel supply in southern California, since the build-out of H2 fueling stations has fallen so woefully short of what the California Fuel Cell Partnership promised. It appears to me that, as the years pass, the reality is diverging more and more widely from the promises of the CFCP. This should not be a surprise to anyone who prefers to look at things as they really are, rather than engaging in wishful thinking, given that these false promises are coming from those who are -- still! -- actively promoting the "hydrogen economy" hoax.

From October 2015: "Toyota Provides Mobile Half-Fill Hydrogen Refuel Stations For Mirai In US While Waiting On Infrastructure"
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Martin Williams said:
As to filling my ICE, it is equipped with an irritating little light that flashes when fuel runs low ("50 miles remaining" level) and I get an updating message on the display telling me how many miles I have before it runs out. I never make a dedicated journey to fill the tank, but simply call into a filling station and fill up when I see one as I'm doing my usual pootling about.

Locally, I have a pretty good idea where the lowest priced ones are and might make a small diversion to take advantage, but otherwise, the next one that I come across is used. It takes two or three minutes. To me, this is minimum hassle. I'd like to do the same with an electric vehicle and with a hydrogen-powered one, I will probably be able to do so.
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As for filling my ice, I open an app and say 'hey bring me gas overnight while I sleep' and the good lord giveth.
 
Feed The Trees said:
As for filling my ice, I open an app and say 'hey bring me gas overnight while I sleep' and the good lord giveth.
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That reminds me of how good at least one of the celebrity owners of the Clarity FCEV had it when it first came out. Honda would actually have the car flat bedded from her (Jaime Lee Curtis, IIRC) house and take it to be filled up and return it again.

You'd think a mobile service would have been easier, in this case.
 
I would imagine it might be a good idea to have some way of rescuing drivers of FCEVs who run out of gas. Possibly a compressor and a cylinder on the breakdown truck??

Incidentally, this is not the first time vehicles powered by hydrogen, albeit with carbon monoxide added, have run on British roads. During WW2, petrol was unavailable, due to the German blockade. The high-tech workaround was to strap a large rubberised canvas bag to the roof of the car and run the engine from coal gas taken from the gas mains! An early form of 'plug-in', it seemed to work well.

I know from my own experience how easy this is to do. Some years ago I accompanied a neighbour on a trip to Wales to look at a boat he was thinking of buying. We traveled in his beat-up van. En route, we ran out of petrol. Unfazed, he rummaged in the back of the van, emerging with a large cylinder of - I think propane or butane - which he parked between us. A rubber tube ran from it to the air filter intake where it was attached with gaffer tape. I was given the job of regulating it by turning the valve up or down. To my amazement, it took us there and back with no problem. I can't imagine what it did to the engine, mind you!
 
I have the same problems, leaving the accessories on all weekend, leaving lights on after a storm during the day, late for work and noticing I'm almost out of fuel.
My Mitsubishi ute has auto lights off, so one problem fixed with that vehicle, seams the new electric and all cars I suppose r getting better at prompting us to Remember these things.
 
Normal human beings forget things from time to time, particularly when they have more interesting things to do. If your car is the most interesting thing in your life, you probably won't forget, but its a minor detail in mine so I almost certainly would forget to plug it in occasionally.

Wireless charging is probably OK for things like phones, although the one I have requires fairly careful positioning to work which is fiddly. They are all inefficient though. With a phone it doesn't matter much but if you are losing a kilowatt or two in radiated power you might wonder where it ends up. This gets more worrying as the power level - and therefore the associated losses rise.

I think I'd be inclined to stick with a cable, forgetful as I am.
 
Martin Williams said:
Normal human beings forget things from time to time, particularly when they have more interesting things to do. If your car is the most interesting thing in your life, you probably won't forget, but its a minor detail in mine so I almost certainly would forget to plug it in occasionally.
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Do you also occasionally forget to take the gas hose out of the car after filling up at the gas station? Or forget to put the cap back on your gas tank fill pipe? :rolleyes:

In practice, BEV drivers report that they get into the habit of plugging in after they park at home at night, and once they get into the habit, they don't ever forget to do it. The idea that it's a "problem" to remember to plug in at night is something generally seen only in "concern troll" posts from EV bashers... like the one above.

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Since I'm absent-minded, I used to occasionally forget and lock my keys in the car. This was usually no more than a minor annoyance, since I carried a spare key in my wallet. But once I ventured out leaving my wallet behind, and...

The resulting hassle left me so angry that it motivated me to spend a few minutes actually thinking about the problem, instead of just letting the hassle upset me. It occurred to me that the problem was I had a tendency to hold up the handle as I slammed the car door, so I could lock the door without using the key. Once I realized that, the solution was obvious: Always use the key to lock the car door! After that, I never again locked my keys in the car.

My point is that if you find you keep forgetting something, then change your habits so that you can't forget it. If you were to, for example, always make sure you plugged the car in before closing the car door after you got out, then you simply wouldn't ever forget to plug it in. Not unless you have a habit of going off and leaving your car door open after you park!
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Pushmi-Pullyu said:
Do you also occasionally forget to take the gas hose out of the car after filling up at the gas station? Or forget to put the cap back on your gas tank fill pipe?
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No and yes, respectively. The former is pretty difficult in the UK. You have to hold the handle down for fuel to flow. In the latter case, friendly drivers tend to draw my attention to it by flashing their lights etc. It's not a show stopping problem. Leaving the house to catch a plane and finding I had forgotten to plug in the bloody car would be extremely trying though.

I don't see why I have to change my habits to suit the car. I can save myself the trouble by buying something other than a battery powered car. That is what 99 out of a hundred do.
 
Somebody must be really desperate to bash BEVs by claiming it's a negative that you have to remember to plug them in. I've been known as a "forgetful" person even from childhood and yet, I plug my cellphone, ipad and road laptop in by habit and have never run out. Getting home and not plugging is the exception and usually means that I used so little charge that day I'm good for the next. The charging timer is set to come on in the wee hours when rates are the lowest. Much less hassle than taking my old Saturn for a fill up. In case you haven't noticed, filling stations are usually located on busy arterial roads and just getting back into the traffic stream can be an adventure. Instead, I step out the door, unplug the car and enter a usually calm suburban street.

Like PuPu I have locked keys inside the car in the past. My solution was to never slam the door unless the keys were in my fist. Haven't tried to lock the Leaf with the fob inside. I suspect the car will complain. I'll have to give that a go.
 
Well, you might like to explain why 99 out of a hundred people don't buy battery powered cars.

Having to plug it in all the time is my explanation, but if you have a more convincing one then let's hear it. It may prove a way of enhancing their appeal.
 
Martin Williams said:
Well, you might like to explain why 99 out of a hundred people don't buy battery powered cars.

Having to plug it in all the time is my explanation, but if you have a more convincing one then let's hear it. It may prove a way of enhancing their appeal.
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There are a lot of reasons but having to remember to plug in is unlikely to be close to the top.
Here the reasons I was hesitant and what I have encountered since owning an EV:
-Relatively few options for purchase compared to ICE vehicles..combined with...
-Cost. The person who drives a 40 or 60K BMW or Benz is less likely to buy a Volt but doesn't want to pony up 90+ for a Tesla.
-Range anxiety. It's not about remembering to plug it in at home, it's the time/hassle of recharging on long trips.
-Lack of familiarity. Plenty of (educated) people I talk to are hardly comfortable with concept of a hybrid. They are incredulous (really!) when they learn that a Tesla or Leaf doesn't need gas.

I have spent the last 2 weeks driving ICE vehicles while my Model S is suffering from rodent damage (our Toyota ICE had damage as well). Had to fill up with gas three times, not a big deal but I realized I have become very spoiled by being able to plug in at home!
 
Interesting points with which I can identify. I suppose the big question is "Would you buy another?"

In the UK they seem to suffer very high rates of depreciation which I guess would come under your 'cost' point.
 
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